Thought experiment..

[Professor T]

Thought experiment..

Taking thoughts and our own consciousness out to examine them, there seem to be parallels with evolution and natural selection in the natural world.. A giraffe develops a long neck in order to reach the inaccessible in it's evolution, an ant eater does basically the same by developing a long nose. Natural selection dictates that in times of hardship it was the long necked giraffes and anteaters that survived to perpetuate their species, whereas the shorter were less adaptive and so died out leaving behind the animals we see today.

Our minds, and the development of our own consciousness seems to follow the same path. Minds reach for the inaccessible in fields of knowledge and understanding in basically anything the mind's attention is put to, and minds also suffer times of hardship where old thoughts and ideas die off leaving behind room for the new thoughts and paradigms we know today.. The big difference is, the evolution of the individual mind can be very quick, day's weeks, years, certainly not the centuries and millenniums that the natural world takes to change..

In short, the Mind is a world not unlike the natural world. Thoughts and ideas are the nature that roam it's forests and prairies and oceans. Thoughts and ideas are the predator, the prey and the evolutionary winners and losers... Thoughts and ideas are the hunter and the hunted.. Our exchanges in thoughts and Ideas, therefore, can be likened to sending visitors from your world into another world that can be either harmful or benign, attacking the species already there, planting seeds or eggs of noxious weed or breed, or assimilating into the mind to help it grow and and mature like a garden.

Thoughts?

[SpiritWriter]

I think some animals were created with long necks/whatever part of their body because of the environment, not because over time they adapted. (Not that adaptation doesnt exist)

One of the most equisite seens I've ever seen was the birth or a giraffe. Look up: Seattle's Tallest Baby and watch the vid. Once you see this you will know that anything is possible. I personally believe an animal can be developed in the length of time of a gestation period. I dont think it needs to take millions of years. All you need is some fertilization, nutrients, water and sun.

Edited October 15, 2013 by SpiritWriter

[spacecowboy342]

I think you hit it pretty well. The human mind is the most amazing thing of which I am aware. Capable of creating great beauty and tragedy as well. We like to think of ourselves as the pinnacles of either creation or evolution, and why not? What other species is capable of the wonders that we are? But in the grand scheme of things we have only been here for a very short time. Many species were here and flourishing for millions of years. Those are the truly successful ones. We possess the ability for great creation and also to destroy ourselves. It remains to be seen if our big brains were a successful evolutionary adaption or not. Kurt Vonnegut wrote that the only thing wrong with humans was our big brains and as soon as we evolve those away we would be fine. I try not to be so cynical but with all I have observed I'm not sure he was wrong.

[StarMountainKid]

I like the Kurt Vonnegut quote. I think he similarly said ideas are what gets us in trouble. I like the OP's last paragraph in that the mindscape is similar to our physical environment.

There's another idea that thoughts and ideas are like brain parasites. For instance, when someone gives you an idea, the idea grows in your mind as a living entity. A neurological life form, similar to the OP's way of considering thoughts as predator and prey.

I think this is a form of evolution, as there are mental winners and losers, and the winners prevail. Nice topic.

[Professor T]

I think some animals were created with long necks/whatever part of their body because of the environment, not because over time they adapted. (Not that adaptation doesnt exist)

One of the most equisite seens I've ever seen was the birth or a giraffe. Look up: Seattle's Tallest Baby and watch the vid. Once you see this you will know that anything is possible. I personally believe an animal can be developed in the length of time of a gestation period. I dont think it needs to take millions of years. All you need is some fertilization, nutrients, water and sun.

Yep, the environment (of the mind) is certainly as important as natural selection or evolution..

Sorry SpiritWriter, your response sounds like that of a creationist, thats fine.. There's definitely room for creationist theory in this thought experiment.. The underlying nature of thoughts and ideas isn't exclusive.. There's room for thoughts and Ideas to Merge.. As perceived as entities, some of them must come together to get it on so to say, and create or spawn new thoughts, new ideas, new entities..

It kind of makes you wonder, if some of our crazy dreams are a glimpse of this? Our consciousness examining it's own landscape..

[_Only]

I like the OP's last paragraph in that the mindscape is similar to our physical environment.

There's another idea that thoughts and ideas are like brain parasites. For instance, when someone gives you an idea, the idea grows in your mind as a living entity. A neurological life form, similar to the OP's way of considering thoughts as predator and prey.

I liked it a lot, too, because it relates something not understood to something that is, which allows us to see something we naturally assume is incomprehensible in a more acceptable light. Even if it isn't literally true in itself, it is still extremely helpful. This is a great way to teach.

He just left out an important cousin to thoughts and ideas in the 'world' of the mind; emotions. I am sure they would be one of the most powerful forces. I think an emotional evolution is just as.. no, more important, than intelligence. In our perfect mind's land of Oz, we would all want to be blessed with courage, a heart, and a brain, but I admit if I could only choose one, I would go for the heart. I would choose this with the idea that changing the world starts with yourself, and a world full of hearts toward each other is the one I would want to live in, more than a hypothetical world of intelligent people killing each other strategically.

Edited October 16, 2013 by _Only

[spacecowboy342]

I liked it a lot, too, because it relates something not understood to something that is, which allows us to see something we naturally assume is incomprehensible in a more acceptable light. Even if it isn't literally true in itself, it is still extremely helpful. This is a great way to teach.

He just left out an important cousin to thoughts and ideas in the 'world' of the mind; emotions. I am sure they would be one of the most powerful forces.

I'm not sure you can separate the thoughts from the emotions as if they were separate things. I've never had one without the other

[Professor T]

We possess the ability for great creation and also to destroy ourselves. It remains to be seen if our big brains were a successful evolutionary adaption or not.

Very true, and it is also true that the ability for this great creation or destruction is in the mind, not in the outside world as many would seem to believe. A mind that is corrupted by destructive thoughts and Ideas is equal to a world full of destructive entities that are hell bent on destroying their world and suppressing resistance to their goals. The Mind entities/Parasites/Overtangles, call them anything you like, manifest their agenda in our world. The true battlefield is the mind, because if it weren't for corrupted minds, we wouldn't have corrupted world.

[Professor T]

I liked it a lot, too, because it relates something not understood to something that is, which allows us to see something we naturally assume is incomprehensible in a more acceptable light. Even if it isn't literally true in itself, it is still extremely helpful. This is a great way to teach.

He just left out an important cousin to thoughts and ideas in the 'world' of the mind; emotions. I am sure they would be one of the most powerful forces. I think an emotional evolution is just as.. no, more important, than intelligence.

Thanks..

emotions....... hmmmmm........

I tend to think that ideas and thoughts have no emotion of themselves.. Emotions are a physical attribute.

We do tend to attach emotions to certain thoughts and Ideas, but that is done from our ego 3-d Physical existence, and are not born of thoughts or Ideas. Yes, most people are born with a standard set of emotions, but we learn to attach emotions to certain thoughts, ideas, and the actions and consequences throughout life teach us to attach certain emotions to certain thoughts and ideas... Actually I kind of think we only have one emotion, or rather, one spectrum of positive and negative, that has been labeled and re-labeled with different emotion's throughout our history, lol..

Ask a christian what emotion they feel against the idea of God? Ask an Atheist the same question?

Am sure their answers will prove that thoughts and Ideas aren't the root of emotions.

(edited to add) Live long and prosper.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Professor T

[White Crane Feather]

I think there is something to it, selection effects all things and only things that can reproduce or hold their form exist the onslaught of entropy.

Along these same lines, I have concluded things like religions or other institutions are mass quantities of these ideas that are highly evolved potentially societies themselves are actually alive entities.

Certain institutions and societies actually fit all the qualities it takes to be considered a super organism.

[spacecowboy342]

Thanks..

emotions....... hmmmmm........

I tend to think that ideas and thoughts have no emotion of themselves.. Emotions are a physical attribute.

We do tend to attach emotions to certain thoughts and Ideas, but that is done from our ego 3-d Physical existence, and are not born of thoughts or Ideas. Yes, most people are born with a standard set of emotions, but we learn to attach emotions to certain thoughts, ideas, and the actions and consequences throughout life teach us to attach certain emotions to certain thoughts and ideas... Actually I kind of think we only have one emotion, or rather, one spectrum of positive and negative, that has been labeled and re-labeled with different emotion's throughout our history, lol..

Ask a christian what emotion they feel against the idea of God? Ask an Atheist the same question?

Am sure their answers will prove that thoughts and Ideas aren't the root of emotions.

(edited to add) Live long and prosper.

I agree that thoughts and ideas aren't the root of emotions but I do think they are intertwined and inseparable. You say emotions are a physical attribute and I say so are thoughts which are dependent on the neural net that frames them

[Professor T]

You say emotions are a physical attribute and I say so are thoughts which are dependent on the neural net that frames them

I can't answer this.

Here lays a quagmire, a pool of murky depths of perception that is difficult to see through.

How does one measure a thought. How much does it weigh.

The Brain is a physical mass, an EEG will tell you it's working and thoughts are occurring, hell, I have an EEG myself and have done this on many occasions..

but thoughts as we all know aren't equal, consciousness is viewing it's self, and confusion lays in determining or defining what is the mind and and where the boundary between Brain and Mind lays.. Cases of Out of Body Experiences & Astral projectors IMO prove that the mind can exist outside of any physical limitations, the Brain isn't as it seems the root of all consciousness.

The Idea that the Brain is the seat of Consciousness v's the Idea that the Brain is not the seat of Consciousness is a good example of how simple thoughts or Ideas that differ between people can give them different perceptions or understanding. One Idea brings comfort that the Mind survives death, the other does not..

When I think about (oh crap look at the time! I'd better go to work), I perceive that my thought's aren't in my Brain.. My thought's are actually racing towards work where I'm almost late..

gotta go...

[spacecowboy342]

As far as I know there has never been objective evidence of thoughts absent a functioning brain.Or emotions for that matter.

[Professor T]

I think there is something to it, selection effects all things and only things that can reproduce or hold their form exist the onslaught of entropy.

Along these same lines, I have concluded things like religions or other institutions are mass quantities of these ideas that are highly evolved potentially societies themselves are actually alive entities.

Certain institutions and societies actually fit all the qualities it takes to be considered a super organism.

I'd like to hear more of your line in this..

A super organism, super thought, super idea sounds similar to how I perceive certain organizations too.. I tend to theorize that any Ideas that requires it's thinkers to think a certain way or uphold certain Ideas would be a powerful controlling entity in the landscape of the mind. Powerful enough to consume or assimilate any or all other entities that get in it's way. These Super's would also completely control certain people in every aspect of their lives to peoples own detriment without them even realizing it..

Some popular religions are an example of this, so too is Scientific method.. yep, scientific method is an Idea demanding that it is upheld. It demands that new knowledge is gained by it's Methods alone, and if the method isn't adhered too, the knowledge is false and not accepted, even if the knowledge is actually true..

Edited to add: Is hard to judge whether all the supers are detrimental.. most certainly appear to be.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Professor T

[spacecowboy342]

I'd like to hear more of your line in this..

A super organism, super thought, super idea sounds similar to how I perceive certain organizations too.. I tend to theorize that any Ideas that requires it's thinkers to think a certain way or uphold certain Ideas would be a powerful controlling entity in the landscape of the mind. Powerful enough to consume or assimilate any or all other entities that get in it's way. These Super's would also completely control certain people in every aspect of their lives to peoples own detriment without them even realizing it..

Some popular religions are an example of this, so too is Scientific method.. yep, scientific method is an Idea demanding that it is upheld. It demands that new knowledge is gained by it's Methods alone, and if the method isn't adhered too, the knowledge is false and not accepted, even if the knowledge is actually true..

Edited to add: Is hard to judge whether all the supers are detrimental.. most certainly appear to be.

I disagree in that with the scientific method if knowledge is found to be false it is abandoned and new understanding sought

[StarMountainKid]

All very interesting posts. I think another example of evolution of mind is, different societies have evolved different paradigms or concepts of thought patterns. For instance, Western Platonic ideals and philosophy are different from Eastern or oriental organic ideals and philosophy.

I think in the West we consider ourselves separate from nature and we want to conquer nature, in the East we would consider ourselves as a co-existent element of nature and we would strive to live in harmony within the natural world. Different evolutionary directions of mind.

[spacecowboy342]

All very interesting posts. I think another example of evolution of mind is, different societies have evolved different paradigms or concepts of thought patterns. For instance, Western Platonic ideals and philosophy are different from Eastern or oriental organic ideals and philosophy.

I think in the West we consider ourselves separate from nature and we want to conquer nature, in the East we would consider ourselves as a co-existent element of nature and we would strive to live in harmony within the natural world. Different evolutionary directions of mind.

Excellent point. Also I think it illustrates the evolutionary idea that species change over time when isolated from each other as different cultures were in the past. Today with the internet that isolation is much less and I think we are starting to see more of a synthesis with the melding of different points of view.

[White Crane Feather]

I'd like to hear more of your line in this..

A super organism, super thought, super idea sounds similar to how I perceive certain organizations too.. I tend to theorize that any Ideas that requires it's thinkers to think a certain way or uphold certain Ideas would be a powerful controlling entity in the landscape of the mind. Powerful enough to consume or assimilate any or all other entities that get in it's way. These Super's would also completely control certain people in every aspect of their lives to peoples own detriment without them even realizing it..

Some popular religions are an example of this, so too is Scientific method.. yep, scientific method is an Idea demanding that it is upheld. It demands that new knowledge is gained by it's Methods alone, and if the method isn't adhered too, the knowledge is false and not accepted, even if the knowledge is actually true..

Edited to add: Is hard to judge whether all the supers are detrimental.. most certainly appear to be.

Indeed. An ant colony is considered a super organism. The individual is simply a peice of the whole not really a separate organism capable of persuing its own interests or even reproduction. The colony itself satisfies all the definitions for a living entity whike the individual does not.

A religion is a super organism. It consumes, reacts, and reproduces. If you attack it it will defend itself and it evolves according to selective influences. So do other institutions. Life does not have to be organic. DNA is but information.

Detrimental or beneficial? I don't think it matters. It's nature. It's how live evolves. Super organisms are highly efficient. Ants are extremely successful over the entire earth. It's also about information and with the speed and scope of what is happening with technology there is a super organism wakeing up on earth. If individuality is written into the DNA of this thing and i think it is because indeed without its' emergence could not have occurred it might be ok. I hope so I have no interest in being part of a Borg like entity. In some ways if humanity is going to survive itself it will have to come together in a higher form of consciousness.

I have long wondered if life on earth is simply an embro preparing to be born as a much higher being. God could simply have been our parent. It seems fantastic and Star Trek like, but if we actually do reach a technological singularity we will indeed become a super organism that then will reproduce by seeding other planets. Time will tell.

[SpiritWriter]

Thought experiment..

Taking thoughts and our own consciousness out to examine them, there seem to be parallels with evolution and natural selection in the natural world.. A giraffe develops a long neck in order to reach the inaccessible in it's evolution, an ant eater does basically the same by developing a long nose. Natural selection dictates that in times of hardship it was the long necked giraffes and anteaters that survived to perpetuate their species, whereas the shorter were less adaptive and so died out leaving behind the animals we see today.

Our minds, and the development of our own consciousness seems to follow the same path. Minds reach for the inaccessible in fields of knowledge and understanding in basically anything the mind's attention is put to, and minds also suffer times of hardship where old thoughts and ideas die off leaving behind room for the new thoughts and paradigms we know today.. The big difference is, the evolution of the individual mind can be very quick, day's weeks, years, certainly not the centuries and millenniums that the natural world takes to change..

In short, the Mind is a world not unlike the natural world. Thoughts and ideas are the nature that roam it's forests and prairies and oceans. Thoughts and ideas are the predator, the prey and the evolutionary winners and losers... Thoughts and ideas are the hunter and the hunted.. Our exchanges in thoughts and Ideas, therefore, can be likened to sending visitors from your world into another world that can be either harmful or benign, attacking the species already there, planting seeds or eggs of noxious weed or breed, or assimilating into the mind to help it grow and and mature like a garden.

Thoughts?

T, I only read the first paragraph when I posted. I don't know why I do that sometimes. Now if I would have been still and said, read the whole post and then respond, or wait and come back when you have time then I would have probably answered the true question you were after rather than something else, but i do think you should watch that video...

Tallest Baby in Seattle:

Or maybe I like responding to things even when i dont need to. Lets talk about the mind.

Yes i agree with you. Our subconcious mind uses what it does to maintain its lifeform in ways we dont understand, our semi unconcious brain is our ego or flesh going after what it wants and this is connected also to a natural state, our desires are also our loves. Our concious mind differentiates between our lusts, our loves and our need to survive (and probably some other stuff too).

Say the branches of those categories are attracted to where the go rather than try a little here and there and see what works for you.

Or all those branches get cut off when they reach a fail or they merge into other ones as they go up the line.

I kind of get what your saying.

I know it probably sounds like im not making any sense lol but I tried... I dont have time to edit peace all.

Edited October 16, 2013 by SpiritWriter

[Professor T]

I disagree in that with the scientific method if knowledge is found to be false it is abandoned and new understanding sought

I think your right, I think I may have written that wrong, and do have a gap in knowledge here..

My understanding is that scientific method tends to denounce new knowledge if it doesn't meet it's set criteria. Scientific Method insists that new knowledge is challenged, again, and again, and again, and.... Half the time great discoveries are only accepted as truths when those who challenge these Idea's die of old age.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Professor T

[spacecowboy342]

I think your right, I think I may have written that wrong, and do have a gap in knowledge here..

My understanding is that scientific method tends to denounce new knowledge if it doesn't meet it's set criteria. Scientific Method insists that new knowledge is challenged, again, and again, and again, and.... Half the time great discoveries are only accepted as truths when those who challenge these Idea's die of old age.

It is true that any new idea is challenged and must at least have the possibility of being disproved to be excepted. But if an old idea can be shown to not explain new data I don't think any who follow this method cling to them. It can be tough for new ideas to be accepted though when there is no clear data available. This can be both a strength and a weakness to the method. Overall though I think the scientific method is the best in that it doesn't try to cling to old dogma in the face of new data

[bLu3 de 3n3rgy]

All very interesting posts. I think another example of evolution of mind is, different societies have evolved different paradigms or concepts of thought patterns. For instance, Western Platonic ideals and philosophy are different from Eastern or oriental organic ideals and philosophy.

I think in the West we consider ourselves separate from nature and we want to conquer nature, in the East we would consider ourselves as a co-existent element of nature and we would strive to live in harmony within the natural world. Different evolutionary directions of mind.

Would go as far to say that it is a gender thing as well. It is the masculine that seeks to conquer nature, to pillage, to set out to colonise and destroy so they can rebuild in their mark and control. That, through out patriarchal history is the male issue not the feminine, the feminine wants to nurture and protect nature and understands innately through the connection of her own body the cycles of nature.

The other thing that is horrendously frighting and immature about human nature is mob mentality - the individual bypassing their sense of normal/own moral and decency for the group mentality, which leads to bullying, violence, murder, chaos and acts of cruelty. Who really is in control then of consciousness? Some research i have read says that when people are involved in hurting others/nature via mob mentality they do not feel the same level of remorse, conscience or guilt for their actions. It is as if the whole aspect of agency is threatened when a group consciousness is formed.

If the thought level is ahead of our material physical level in terms of 'speed of consciousness', then these creations are existing first as thought forms or super entities, before they materialise on our physical level. Certainly what can be seen during astral projection can support this.

[Professor T]

All very interesting posts. I think another example of evolution of mind is, different societies have evolved different paradigms or concepts of thought patterns. For instance, Western Platonic ideals and philosophy are different from Eastern or oriental organic ideals and philosophy.

I think in the West we consider ourselves separate from nature and we want to conquer nature, in the East we would consider ourselves as a co-existent element of nature and we would strive to live in harmony within the natural world. Different evolutionary directions of mind.

Great thinking..

Excellent point. Also I think it illustrates the evolutionary idea that species change over time when isolated from each other as different cultures were in the past. Today with the internet that isolation is much less and I think we are starting to see more of a synthesis with the melding of different points of view.

Awesome...

Indeed. An ant colony is considered a super organism. The individual is simply a peice of the whole not really a separate organism capable of persuing its own interests or even reproduction. The colony itself satisfies all the definitions for a living entity whike the individual does not.

A religion is a super organism. It consumes, reacts, and reproduces. If you attack it it will defend itself and it evolves according to selective influences. So do other institutions. Life does not have to be organic. DNA is but information.

Detrimental or beneficial? I don't think it matters. It's nature. It's how live evolves. Super organisms are highly efficient. Ants are extremely successful over the entire earth. It's also about information and with the speed and scope of what is happening with technology there is a super organism wakeing up on earth. If individuality is written into the DNA of this thing and i think it is because indeed without its' emergence could not have occurred it might be ok. I hope so I have no interest in being part of a Borg like entity. In some ways if humanity is going to survive itself it will have to come together in a higher form of consciousness.

I have long wondered if life on earth is simply an embro preparing to be born as a much higher being. God could simply have been our parent. It seems fantastic and Star Trek like, but if we actually do reach a technological singularity we will indeed become a super organism that then will reproduce by seeding other planets. Time will tell.

Awesome...

I see this every day in the company I work for.. Those who accept the company thoughts and ideologies are rewarded, those who don't are neglected.. In many ways our Job's, what we do, who we work for and what we believe is nothing but a mind game played out by the Supers who are vying for control. The company line (idea's and Ideologies) more often than not serve the Super, or a select few.. Those that don't serve that collective are weeded out.

But certain thought's and Ideas are worth resisting.. Especially when they clash with existing ideologies.. Analogically speaking, it's the equivalent of our world being attacked by a hostile species, or species that we don't truly understand.. Border security get's it's in on the action..

As far as the evolution of the mind scape goes, that is IMO working at a very fast pace, much faster if we let it. It can be manipulated and guided by one's individual desires. Allowing certain thoughts to take hold and grow. Learning to manipulate and guide our own minds like gardeners is the first step towards weeding out undesirable thought entities. I tend to think that detrimental or beneficial entities can be guided, manipulated, destroyed or farmed to maximize the evolution of the mind. I don't think that detrimental or beneficial doesn't matter in nature, I think nature is a more balanced approach. It's cognition that allows us to understand that we can manipulate towards desired results with a bit of fertilizer here, a selective breeding program there...

Using gardens as an analogy, Most minds are probably overgrown with weeds.. Those with Super Entities have gardens designed to serve fruits almost exclusively to the Super. Those who understand that "hey, my mind is my garden!" are more likely to weed where they want, plant what they want, and awaken to the fact that they are the gardener of their thoughts, and not as many believe "I think, therefore I am".

Yeah, it's easy to see the whole Borg mentality playing it's self out on the world stage.. "Resistance is futile" is an idea worthy of weeding..

[StarMountainKid]

Professor T you're garden analogy is excellent. It's not always easy to pull those damn weeds, though. But in another sense, weeds play an important role in that their contrast with the flowers enable us to see the flowers more clearly.

For instance, which is more beautiful, a full moon in a clear sky, or a full moon with clouds drifting before it?

[White Crane Feather]

80% of weeds are actually edible plants. I don't pull them. I intergrade them into my salads or juice them in my juicer for the Nutrients they provide. Just saying.