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XingWi

Half million Iraqis died in war, occupation

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Yamato

So the IDF should refrain from returning fire? That hardly seems rational in a war now does it?

What fire? So they're in a war and you're still coming up with this presumptuous Zionist disarmament prerequisite for Palestinians? Maybe since they're at war Israel should be disarmed too. You should eat your own cooking and you'll realize how hypocritical it tastes.

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Yamato

If some foreign scum came to my country and started bulldozing my neighborhood down one house at a time for the exclusive use by whatever personal characteristic it is that foreigner brought with them, I'd feel at war every day. Who wouldn't? When this poison comes close enough that any of us can get a whiff of it up our own noses, when our own personal little habitats become threatened we'll all wake up and figure out how hypocritical we've been to let this same crap in Israel slide. What a bunch of anti-American sissies who would just get on hands and knees and roll over in submission to a foreign invasion. Yeah our shotguns and boobie traps and roadside bombs would be "terroristic". All bombs are terroristic, Sherlock.

The question remains, and it applies to everyone on earth equally: What is worth fighting for?

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and then

If some foreign scum came to my country and started bulldozing my neighborhood down one house at a time for the exclusive use by whatever personal characteristic it is that foreigner brought with them, I'd feel at war every day. Who wouldn't? When this poison comes close enough that any of us can get a whiff of it up our own noses, when our own personal little habitats become threatened we'll all wake up and figure out how hypocritical we've been to let this same crap in Israel slide. What a bunch of anti-American sissies who would just get on hands and knees and roll over in submission to a foreign invasion. Yeah our shotguns and boobie traps and roadside bombs would be "terroristic". All bombs are terroristic, Sherlock.

The question remains, and it applies to everyone on earth equally: What is worth fighting for?

Your HOME...that's why the Israelis will never give up.

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Yamato

Your HOME...that's why the Israelis will never give up.

That makes no sense whatsoever. "Never give up" what, the policies? There's only so much room available for the Greater Israel Project.

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and then

That makes no sense whatsoever. "Never give up" what, the policies? There's only so much room available for the Greater Israel Project.

Never give up fighting for the land they think of as THEIR home Yam. I know it's the height of audacity but hey... :)

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Yamato

Never give up fighting for the land they think of as THEIR home Yam. I know it's the height of audacity but hey... :)

Home isn't reserved solely for Israelis either, hey. That would be the height of audacity to suggest such a thing.

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and then

Home isn't reserved solely for Israelis either, hey. That would be the height of audacity to suggest such a thing.

If that were the bone of contention it might be subject to compromise. Problem is they BOTH want exclusive control.

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Yamato

If that were the bone of contention it might be subject to compromise. Problem is they BOTH want exclusive control.

I don't care about what they want I care about what they do.

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XingWi

If that were the bone of contention it might be subject to compromise. Problem is they BOTH want exclusive control.

There is a difference. One is occupying and the other wants freedom.

Your HOME...that's why the Israelis will never give up.

Your "homeless" Zionists also wish to make half of Iraq their "home". The "Greater Israel" that includes almost half of Iraq, one-fourth of SA, whole of Jordan, 3/4th of Syria, whole of Lebanon, a part of Egypt and Turkey. Now that the US has invaded Iraq, replaced Saddam with puppet rulers, got full access to its oil, when is it going to hand over half of Iraq's land to its long time buddy - Israel?

Edited by XingWi

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Almagest

Why did you bring up the US millitary again when it has been made clear that nobody blamed the US millitary for all the half million Iraqi civilian deaths? Without reading the links in the OP you had commented that it's 'misleading' because 'the US millitary did not shoot half a million', and I cleared up your misunderstanding then and there. Done. The 'mindless sheep' comment was in response to your accusing me of 'parroting propaganda' and 'slandering'. Get over it.

You don't even have consistency in your own views, and you're making massive assumptions. I haven't used the term propaganda once in this thread, and the only time I could find it contained within one of my posts was in a quote from you. Strangely enough every page that I searched for the term on came up with multiple uses of the word by you. You're also the one who introduced the idea that I was parroting what And Then was saying, which is downright incorrect. On the contrary, AT and I very rarely agree, but at least he usually has the decency to address me as an individual with a different view point, and not a parrot or a mindless sheep.

...although I do believe that a large part of the US population is easily misled by the western medias propaganda and they never bother to look around for other sources of information.

I've seen it, and I think you're using very similar tactics. The right wing media in the US was very fond of denouncing those who opposed the war as anti-American, terrorist sympathisers. That damned line "Support Our Troops!" kept cropping up time and time again, like those who were against an unnecessary war based on lies did not.

The US invasion of Iraq was a war of aggression and was brought on by lies about the Iraqi WMD program that makes the whole war illegal and a series of war crimes. How much time would it take for the US millitary on Iraqi land to realize that they were lied to into this war? Not much I suppose. But they continued fighting. For what? For serving their country or to make the war mongerers rich or were they just following orders? Doesn't matter beacause it still wouldn't justify the killing of even one Iraqi soldier let alone an insurgent or an innocent civilian.

I'm more of the opinion that the invasion had to do with relieving pressure on Israel. If soldiers questioned every order they got they would make a highly ineffective fighting force. That's one of the problems inherent with having a military, it can't be run with any kind of civilian philosophy.

Genocide was not the aim but it was commited nonetheless. What motivated it was several decades long history of dehumanization of Arabs/Muslims in the western media. The US millitary shot at, bombed, used chemical and radioactive weapons indiscriminately against Iraqis, they did not even hesitate to dump radioactive poisons in the drinking water supplies. Radiation poisoning is not only detected in Fallujah but in Baghdad too, in fact in and around most battle fields of Iraq. It doesn't stop at this, radioactive particles will continue to spread throughout Iraq and might possibly reach Jordan and Iran too and will continue to pose radiation hazards to the population there for the next thousands of years.

In the words of an ex-U.S. marine himself when he was serving in Iraq: "we’re basically committing genocide over here":

How do you deny the claim that the US military was blamed for committing genocide then use a quote from a marine saying exactly that? Do you have any actual evidence that an order came from the top to commit systematic genocide against Arabs in Iraq?

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XingWi

You don't even have consistency in your own views, and you're making massive assumptions. I haven't used the term propaganda once in this thread, and the only time I could find it contained within one of my posts was in a quote from you. Strangely enough every page that I searched for the term on came up with multiple uses of the word by you. You're also the one who introduced the idea that I was parroting what And Then was saying, which is downright incorrect. On the contrary, AT and I very rarely agree, but at least he usually has the decency to address me as an individual with a different view point, and not a parrot or a mindless sheep.

I've seen it, and I think you're using very similar tactics. The right wing media in the US was very fond of denouncing those who opposed the war as anti-American, terrorist sympathisers. That damned line "Support Our Troops!" kept cropping up time and time again, like those who were against an unnecessary war based on lies did not.

No, I have been consistent throughout. It's you that's being inconsistent and changing your statements with every post. I am not letting you derail this thread with your bickering. So for the last time I am going off topic for you to make this very clear again:

In the OP itself I had quoted from the news article:

An estimated 461,000 Iraqis died between March 2003 and June 2011 as a direct or indirect result of the conflict

I also gave links to the news articles that have explicitly mentioned the causes of death as both direct and indirect causes related to war. And in my next post also I made it very clear that the report includes the deaths by both direct and indirect causes:

The number of deaths taken into account are only those that were either directly caused by violence or indirectly caused by war related events. It was an independant research carried out by a team that constitutes American and Canadian researchers.

And this statement of mine was in response to the following post of 'and then':

The attitude contained here is that America is responsible for every death under ANY circumstance since long before the first shots were fired

Despite the fact that it had been mentioned multiple times (particularly in the OP) that the number of deaths included both that were from direct and indirect result of the conflict, you posted in this thread with these words:

This is misleading. American soldiers did not shoot half a million Iraqis.

If you had read any of the links in the OP or my posts above yours before posting here you wouldn’t have said these words. It is very obvious that you tried to take a shot at it without first reading the links in the OP and you just parroted what andthen had said before you.

And in the same post you also said the following words that you are denying now:

I'm no supporter of the Iraq war, but I'm not going to slander the US military by parroting BS.

Yeah, propaganda and BS in this context are the same thing. Don't you think it is hypocritical of you to complain about my calling you a parrot, when it was you that used the same words against me first? Especially when the fault was yours for not having read the links in the OP first and there was no reason to accuse me of parroting in the first place.

Still, your posting here without having read the OP was not a big mistake. People sometimes post in threads without reading the OP. It happens. But what you are doing now, in your attempts to cover up that one mistake just because your bruised ego cannot handle the fact that you made a mistake, is something that is egoistic and downright insensitive. The deaths of hundreds of thousands mean nothing to you, not a word about that so far, and all you care about is how to derail this thread with your bickering. Well congratulations! you have almost derailed it. Now that I have cleared it up for you for the third and last time, no more petty arguments about parrots or propagandas etc please. I am not hearing another word about that. If you still think I offended you anywhere unjustifiably then report my posts and let the mods decide.

Thank you.

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XingWi

Now getting this thread back on topic:

I'm more of the opinion that the invasion had to do with relieving pressure on Israel.

If you think that 'relieving pressure on Israel' was the central motive behind the invasion , do you have anything to comment on this:

Why the war in Iraq was fought for Big Oil

Also, do you think that there could be more than one motive. What is your view on the zionist expansionism and the greater Israel that includes half of Iraq?

If soldiers questioned every order they got they would make a highly ineffective fighting force. That's one of the problems inherent with having a military, it can't be run with any kind of civilian philosophy.

So they were just following orders, then? The Nazis too were just following orders. By your logic the Nazis too should be defensible for their mass-extermination of Jews. The US soldiers knew that the war was not justifiable and they also knew they were being reckless with DU and they knew that leaving it around in the battlefields was also setting up genocide for the future generations of Iraqis.

How do you deny the claim that the US military was blamed for committing genocide then use a quote from a marine saying exactly that? Do you have any actual evidence that an order came from the top to commit systematic genocide against Arabs in Iraq?

Is there anything left to argue about this when I have quoted your own veteran using the word 'genocide' in this context? And this is one really brave veteran to have come forward to boldly admit what he considered it to be... just imagine how many other veterans must have been holding similar views about that but don't want to come forward. I can also quote several human right activists and journalists also calling it genocide. It doesn't have to be hierarchically organized with explicit orders of 'genocide' coming from top to be called genocide. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide has much broader definition of genocide. The Sunni rulers of Iraq, and all their associates and the Sunni insurgents along with hundreds of thousands of Sunni civilians mass exterminated indiscriminately so that the Kurdish or the Shia could take over easily, this could very well fit into that. But as usual, the double standards of the US, with this term also, when it comes to Darfur it is genocide and when it comes to Iraq it is just unfortunate collateral damage.

The Politics of Naming: Genocide, Civil War, Insurgency

You are also twisting things again. I said I do not blame the US military for all the half million deaths. However, I do blame the military for the deaths they have caused and the radiation poisoning that will be haunting the future generations of Iraqis for centuries. I blame them for mass-extermination of Iraqis and for indiscriminate shootings and bombings and for dropping mk77 in densely populated areas and for using chemical and radioactive weapons and for dumping radioactive poisons in the drinking water supplies of Iraqis. I have already given links about the mentioned crimes. However, more than the troops, I blame all those leaders and the media that had been engineering anti-Arab/anti-Muslim dehumanization propagandas for years. Things like these are bound to happen when you set loose an army of individuals saturated with years long prejudice against the enemy that they no longer think of as humans, especially when that army believes that their enemy is an aggressor and attacked you first by reaching your home (reference to 9/11) and that the place you are going to invade has been a safe haven for terrorists for decades. As Steven Green a convicted Iraq war veteran had said, "I didn't think of Iraqis as humans". Those pulling the strings knew what would happen in those circumstances even if all the individuals within the troops did not realize that soon enough. The reckless targetting with DU in almost all battlefields in Iraq, the WP at Fallujah, the dumping of radioactive poisons in their drinking water, the rape and murder of Abeer Qassim and her family, or the 2007 Apache Helicopter attack on the civilians in Baghdad (Yeah that cool video game they played), or the horrors of Abu Ghraib, these things do not imply that these were the only cases of human rights violations. In fact, on the contrary these things give a glimpse of the larger picture, the attitude of the US military towards the Iraqis as a whole. This, combined with the half-million number and in some statistics close to a million should be enough to nullify your argument that it was about "minimizing civilian casulaties".

What exactly are you defending here now, an array of benevolent angels or an army of human beings that can give in to their prejudices just like all other human beings? ...that can give in to the pressures of their circumstances? I will give you a hint (one-third of women in the US millitary are raped by fellow soldiers)... this proves we are not talking about angels. What is your point in this argument… that the Iraqis should be thankful to the US military for sparing the lives of the rest of them after killing those Iraqis that they have killed in crude and ugly missions, while causing only 'a slight inconvenience' to the rest by introducing them to the radiation caused cancers and two-headed/eight-limbed babies?

You claimed about 'minimizing civilian casualties', I gave you links to the indiscriminate targetting, you objected to calling it genocide, I quoted your own veteran calling it genocide. You wanted a reason for accusing the troops of war crimes I gave you links about DU and WP. What do have to say after everything that has been said?

Edited by XingWi

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