The Threat of Israel's WMD Arsenals

[Uncle Sam]

Ah... Israel, the country that is constantly under attack by Islamist used as proxies by Arab countries or by Arab countries who want to see the complete destruction of Israel. It would be illogical not to have nukes when the whole middle east wants to remove you from the face of the Earth due to their Anti-Semitic views. I don't blame her for wanting to maintain an Mutual Assured Destruction Policy in secret that will keep her enemies on their toes and make them think twice about attacking. Not to mention Israel is the size of New York... that isn't very big.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Uncle Sam

[Space Commander Travis]

Man, do you just live in a bass ackwards world or what? Israel's neighbors attack Israel. The UN is a den of thieves. Meanwhile, Iran, the World's number one proprietor of Terrorism gets a pass?

i thought that was another of America's valued allies, Saudi Arabia.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Colonel Rhuairidh

[Space Commander Travis]

It is not racist to name the enemy Yam, in fact it is foolish NOT to. Who were they fighting? This conflict isn't about states and you know it. It is about ethnic hatred. Arab Muslim against Jew PRIMARILY. But Muslims in general. Their Qur'an tells them the hoped for renewal with all it's blessings CANNOT happen until the Muslims fight the Jews and KILL them. Israel did nothing but defend itself against an open and stupidly proclaimed in advance war of annihilation against their country on the other occasions. But then, Israel defending itself is the same as aggression to many.

Is this the "they're all mad and Evil" argument once again? Except now it isn't just a whole country, it's this great big mass (who all think and believe exactly alike, of course), The Muslims.

[White Crane Feather]

I'd say a few nukes is a pretty good deterent for invasion. I do hope it never comes to using them though. This is one of the reasons the us should support Israel. If we help keep their enemies at bay then, They will never be backed into the corner that might trigger a nuclear strike. No one wants to see a a city obliterated. There are many innocent famines in those places that have nothing to do with the decisions of their rulers.

[+and-then]

Is this the "they're all mad and Evil" argument once again? Except now it isn't just a whole country, it's this great big mass (who all think and believe exactly alike, of course), The Muslims.

Not having THAT pointless argument with you or anyone else here again. I will say that only a fool thinks Islam is a peaceful religion. Or perhaps an illiterate.

eta- When the RAF bombed entire cities to rubble night after endless night in WWII I'm sure the Germans thought of ALL British citizens as being mad and evil - it kind of comes with being targeted for death by a group. The argument is silly and insulting - which of course is the intent.

Edited October 20, 2013 by and then

[+joc]

Okay if you want to overlook the negative stuff that was listed in the OP, and just answer the question, go ahead. Nothing need be inherently "anti" here, but I'll need some good answers as to why Israel's nukes aren't a threat and so far we don't have any.

Iran doesn't even come close in the terrorism department to Israel. What terror? Some guy you can't even name allegedly said something you didn't even hear? And that puts Iran over the top pushing Israel down to the #2 spot? If you don't think that Israel terrorizes Palestinians every day of the week, you're the one that needs to wake up. I know you're a partisan republican on the US politics board and quite shamelessly so, so I now have to suspect you're bathing in the neocon bath salts of Fox News Channel and AM radio. I'm not blinded by the Neocon BS that you listen to and believe in. So you just ignore Israel's criminality and go right to telling me to wake up? I can ask you the exact same question: When has Egypt ever attacked any country in the region that wasn't threatening her? When has Jordan? When has Lebanon? When has Syria? So that doesn't make any difference in how we view this issue at all.

I hoped you would say something to this effect unlike others who I figured would be far more predictable.

I don't watch Fox...I don't have a Television...I know history...obviously you do not.

[White Crane Feather]

I don't watch Fox...I don't have a Television...I know history...obviously you do not.

It's more than that joc. It's much more complicated... The depths of which are not solvable emotionally or intellectually by one man or even several. Seeds must be planted and cultivated. But there are lots of slugs, gophers, aphids, and other parasites.

We have a problem in this world. Good people want peace. Peacefull people live peacefully and need little. The rest are consumed with.... .... ...... .... Something. The peaceful person by sheer nature of peace does not rise up against the elements against their way of life until the last moment then a sleeping giant awakens. It's history and the Heros journey manifest ins populace. Rulers of men should observe this.

Edited October 21, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[+joc]

It's more than that joc. It's much more complicated... The depths of which are not solvable emotionally or intellectually by one man or even several. Seeds must be planted and cultivated. But there are lots of slugs, gophers, aphids, and other parasites.

We have a problem in this world. Good people want peace. Peacefull people live peacefully and need little. The rest are consumed with.... .... ...... .... Something.

Yes we have a problem in this world...and you are correct, at this point it is not a solvable problem...which is why I say from time to time, We are Doomed. We are doomed because Seeds have been planted and cultivated. The Seeds of Communist Ideology have grown up into a thick, freedom choking, mind numbing, thought killing, bed of weeds in the Garden of Freedom. That is exactly the Something..that the rest are consumed with.

Identifying the problem is the first step. The first step toward knowing who the enemy is and isn't. But again...not a solvable problem. The World continues to revolve upon its ever-weakening axis.

[White Crane Feather]

Yes we have a problem in this world...and you are correct, at this point it is not a solvable problem...which is why I say from time to time, We are Doomed. We are doomed because Seeds have been planted and cultivated. The Seeds of Communist Ideology have grown up into a thick, freedom choking, mind numbing, thought killing, bed of weeds in the Garden of Freedom. That is exactly the Something..that the rest are consumed with.

Identifying the problem is the first step. The first step toward knowing who the enemy is and isn't. But again...not a solvable problem. The World continues to revolve upon its ever-weakening axis.

You are talking to person with a degree in economics. I know mathematically and empirically why communism dosnt work. But I also know intimately why certain 'ideas' of freedom are actually against empirically, scientifically, and mathematically understood concepts in free capitalism or democracy or the reality of the environment. Ask me about externalities and the mis understanding of free markets, and how modern capitalism is a silly farce of what it is supposed to be. even the anti capitalists would agree with me because both sides don't actually get what scholars have been telling us for quite a whike. I'm an amature naturalist I tend to put things into a truthful ecological context. By definition the US is not a democracy it's a polygarchy. I don't think we are doomed. I just think people need to give up hard line absolutism and live and let live. You might be surprised that I'm pretty conservative in my values, but upon close inspecting I have no right to impose my values on others. If ... If... If. Human beings can just give up one little thing. ( imposing their beliefs on others) and adopt a live and let live policy minus teritorial psychosis, universally there is no end to what we can accomplish. Of course withing reason..,,, or not.

Like I said I don't think we are doomed I think we are in the beginning stages of defining and narrowing those margins. As long as I can look back in history and see how we built upon knowledge for good or ill. I also see incredible young people in my personal presence bent on makeing the world better, and I have personal experience with the incredible depths and amazing capabilities of the Hunan mind, I have to say that humanity is on the verge of awakening or there is a slight chance of an apocalyptic reset.

[Likely Guy]

Based on Israel's history of ignoring chemical, biological, and nuclear treaties, of attacking its neighbors, of engaging in international assassinations, of human rights violations, of war crimes and crimes against humanity, of violations of numerous UN Security Council Resolutions, is the world safe by tolerating Israel's extralegal, untested and uninspected arsenals?

You could say all that about the permanent members of the Security Council, or North Korea, Iran, etc.

There are few 'lilly white' nations. Far too few.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Likely Guy

[Frank Merton]

I don't see how a national government could do its job properly and still be "lily white."

[Space Commander Travis]

Yes we have a problem in this world...and you are correct, at this point it is not a solvable problem...which is why I say from time to time, We are Doomed. We are doomed because Seeds have been planted and cultivated. The Seeds of Communist Ideology have grown up into a thick, freedom choking, mind numbing, thought killing, bed of weeds in the Garden of Freedom. That is exactly the Something..that the rest are consumed with.

Identifying the problem is the first step. The first step toward knowing who the enemy is and isn't. But again...not a solvable problem. The World continues to revolve upon its ever-weakening axis.

So now it's Communist Ideology, as well as the threat from Islam?

And you said, in a post just above this, that you know history.

[Frank Merton]

So now it's Communist Ideology, as well as the threat from Islam?

And you said, in a post just above this, that you know history.

Well you know I live in a Communist society and I rather like it. Oh poverty here is worse than in the States, but not really that much worse -- people here are well fed and literate and tend to be allowed to believe whatever nonsense they want. Statues of the Buddha and of Jesus far outnumber those of Uncle Ho and I haven't seen a statue of Marx or Lenin in ages.

Of course Communism has had its day, just as has Christianity and Buddhism. Today it's Islam that scares me.

[Leonardo]

Not having THAT pointless argument with you or anyone else here again. I will say that only a fool thinks Islam is a peaceful religion.

One could say the same regarding Judaism and Christianity. All have those who use the religion as an excuse to conduct persecutions and aggressions. Islam is not unique or special in that regard.

[XingWi]

Of course Communism has had its day, just as has Christianity and Buddhism. Today it's Islam that scares me.

I have quite a few Muslim friends, none of them ever tried to kill me. and none of them even tried to force their beliefs upon me. What exactly are you suggesting?

I'm asking you this because earlier in this thread you said lets leave religion out of it when I was hinting toward how Israel's policies have been shaped by discriminatory extremist jewish traditions. I find it a bit hypocritical on your part that you are now yourself getting the religions involved.

How can we leave religion out of it when Israel identifies itself as a Jewish state. And Non-Jewish population (including Christians) in this jewish state have to face religious discrimination day and night. Extremism of any kind no matter from what religion it is should be condemned alike.

[Frank Merton]

You might look into the history of relationships between Islam and Buddhism and how in large parts of the world Buddhists would massacred by Muslims out of existence.

[Frank Merton]

I've been to both Israel and to many Muslim countries. Israel is highly secular, Muslim societies are not (except maybe Turkey and that is now in doubt).

[Black Red Devil]

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's the other way around.

John Galbraith, Canadian liberalist.

[XingWi]

You might look into the history of relationships between Islam and Buddhism and how in large parts of the world Buddhists would massacred by Muslims out of existence.

And now Muslims are being massacred by Buddhists... take Burma for instance, does that mean you should be afraid of Buddhism too?

http://edition.cnn.c...acre/index.html

http://www.huffingto..._n_3554547.html

Edited October 21, 2013 by XingWi

[Space Commander Travis]

One could say the same regarding Judaism and Christianity. All have those who use the religion as an excuse to conduct persecutions and aggressions. Islam is not unique or special in that regard.

I seem to remember the Old testament is ample, er, testimony to how peaceful old school Judaism used to be.

[Space Commander Travis]

I've been to both Israel and to many Muslim countries. Israel is highly secular, Muslim societies are not (except maybe Turkey and that is now in doubt).

Well, there were several Muslim countries that were pretty secular, but the West seemed very keen to remove the regimes currently in power and encourage them to become hardline theocracies (e.g. Iraq, Egypt, almost Syria ...)

[XingWi]

I've been to both Israel and to many Muslim countries. Israel is highly secular, Muslim societies are not (except maybe Turkey and that is now in doubt).

This is totally wrong. Israel is not secular and probably will never be. Christians do face religious discrimination there:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304450004577277833517609876

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/the-myth-of-israels-favorable-treatment-of-palestinian-christians.html

[Frank Merton]

Well, there were several Muslim countries that were pretty secular, but the West seemed very keen to remove the regimes currently in power and encourage them to become hardline theocracies (e.g. Iraq, Egypt, almost Syria ...)

Egypt and Syria never struck me in the least as secular. I've never been to Iraq.

Pretty much what I go by is not the official line of the government but the feel of the streets and the clothes worn by women and how enforced it is and the loud noises waking you every morning (not permitted in really secular states).

[+joc]

You are talking to person with a degree in economics. I know mathematically and empirically why communism dosnt work. But I also know intimately why certain 'ideas' of freedom are actually against empirically, scientifically, and mathematically understood concepts in free capitalism or democracy or the reality of the environment. Ask me about externalities and the mis understanding of free markets, and how modern capitalism is a silly farce of what it is supposed to be. even the anti capitalists would agree with me because both sides don't actually get what scholars have been telling us for quite a whike. I'm an amature naturalist I tend to put things into a truthful ecological context. By definition the US is not a democracy it's a polygarchy. I don't think we are doomed. I just think people need to give up hard line absolutism and live and let live. You might be surprised that I'm pretty conservative in my values, but upon close inspecting I have no right to impose my values on others. If ... If... If. Human beings can just give up one little thing. ( imposing their beliefs on others) and adopt a live and let live policy minus teritorial psychosis, universally there is no end to what we can accomplish. Of course withing reason..,,, or not.

Like I said I don't think we are doomed I think we are in the beginning stages of defining and narrowing those margins. As long as I can look back in history and see how we built upon knowledge for good or ill. I also see incredible young people in my personal presence bent on makeing the world better, and I have personal experience with the incredible depths and amazing capabilities of the Hunan mind, I have to say that humanity is on the verge of awakening or there is a slight chance of an apocalyptic reset.

I would have to say that humanity is on the brink of apocalyptic reset, while a slight chance of awakening exists. As a mathematician, you know that once a spinning top looses centrificul force to the point that it begins to wobble on its axis, that its destiny is to skid across the floor. Even if an outside force were to generate more speed, it would only increase the wobble and hasten the skid. We are wobbling professor. And when we skid across the floor...oh my...what a skid that will be when we hit the adjacent wall.

[Frank Merton]

I would have to say that humanity is on the brink of apocalyptic reset, while a slight chance of awakening exists. As a mathematician, you know that once a spinning top looses centrificul force to the point that it begins to wobble on its axis, that its destiny is to skid across the floor. Even if an outside force were to generate more speed, it would only increase the wobble and hasten the skid. We are wobbling professor. And when we skid across the floor...oh my...what a skid that will be when we hit the adjacent wall.

Your analogy is scary but useless as a predictor of what may actually happen, but I may use it sometime as an example of what is wrong with thinking by analogy. I am in fact rather an optimist about humanity. There are serious threats ahead as the technology for mass destruction gets cheaper and cheaper, but I think societies will respond accordingly. It may involve a good deal of invasion of privacy, but that is a fire that can be controlled and will be necessary, and I think will come to our rescue. We put up with searches when boarding aircraft now, so I don't think when people look at the alternatives they will really object.

In the meantime living standards are vastly improving, even in Communist countries.