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Yamato

The Threat of Israel's WMD Arsenals

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Israel is the most militarized police-state on the planet. Every problem looks like a nail.

As clearly demonstrated by the smouldering hole in the ground that is Palestine and Iran.

ohh wait ....

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Dark_Grey

As clearly demonstrated by the smouldering hole in the ground that is Palestine and Iran.

ohh wait ....

Right because there are no repercussions to launching nuclear warheads at another country.

Ohh wait...

C'mon, man. That's not really an argument. Launching a nuke isn't a prerequisite for being a militarized nation.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

I was referring to the "every problem looks like a nail" comment.

If every problem looks like one with a military solution, and Israel is more then capable of dealing with it as such, why aren't there more smouldering holes across the middle east?

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Almagest

I never said I thought they would ever launch a first strike - exactly the contrary in fact. As to the rationality of Iran's leaders... maybe.. maybe not and if not then that is one hell of a risk to assume when a single weapon could end your country. Sure, they have sub launched nukes but killing a few million innocents won't bring back the nation will it? And the assumption seems to always be a nuclear exchange. What if Iran starts using Hizbollah to strike targets inside Israel on a mass scale then threatens annihilation with their (by that time) multiple nuclear warheads if Israel strikes back? What about the tensions being so high that a mistake is made and the area becomes a very quiet neighborhood for a few thousand years? These are ALL possibilities that are removed essentially by stopping an Iranian nuke before it is built. But as I have said repeatedly, I believe they WILL get their nuke. No one except Israel will stand in their way and apparently Israel's leadership doesn't have the nerve either. I fully believe that all will eventually work out for the best but it could be a REALLY painful and uneccessary process for everyone...time will tell.

All it would take is a singular nuke detonated by Hezbollah for the entire nuclear arsenal of Israel(and perhaps others) to rain upon Iran. Just because they develop the technology to make an atomic bomb doesn't mean they'll be producing them that quickly. North Korea first tested a bomb in 2006 and has an estimated ten devices. The first detection of a test detonation would be enough for Israel to act, long before Iran has enough devices to match Israel. You're talking about beliefs, which mean little when it comes to geopolitics. If members of the Israeli government are so convinced that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, why hasn't Mossad uncovered any evidence for it yet? Or at the very least, had them fake the evidence in order to push for war against Iran?

That last sentence was generally aimed at the topic of the thread, couldn't be bothered going through the pages to see whether or not I'd stated it yet. :P

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and then

All it would take is a singular nuke detonated by Hezbollah for the entire nuclear arsenal of Israel(and perhaps others) to rain upon Iran. Just because they develop the technology to make an atomic bomb doesn't mean they'll be producing them that quickly. North Korea first tested a bomb in 2006 and has an estimated ten devices. The first detection of a test detonation would be enough for Israel to act, long before Iran has enough devices to match Israel. You're talking about beliefs, which mean little when it comes to geopolitics. If members of the Israeli government are so convinced that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, why hasn't Mossad uncovered any evidence for it yet? Or at the very least, had them fake the evidence in order to push for war against Iran?

That last sentence was generally aimed at the topic of the thread, couldn't be bothered going through the pages to see whether or not I'd stated it yet. :P

I never said anything about Hizbollah using a NUKE :) The point I was making was that a nuclear umbrella from Iran for the Hezzies or Hamas could make them feel pretty spritely about when, where and how much they attempted to strike Israel.

They could feel untouchable with their rockets and mortars - making life in Israel miserable. Israel would not stand for it for long and would strike back of course...but what then? Brinksmanship with nukes?

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Almagest

I never said anything about Hizbollah using a NUKE :) The point I was making was that a nuclear umbrella from Iran for the Hezzies or Hamas could make them feel pretty spritely about when, where and how much they attempted to strike Israel.

They could feel untouchable with their rockets and mortars - making life in Israel miserable. Israel would not stand for it for long and would strike back of course...but what then? Brinksmanship with nukes?

Now we're talking hypothetical scenarios within hypothetical scenarios.

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Yamato

Now we're talking hypothetical scenarios within hypothetical scenarios.

Yes, and assumptions stacked upon assumptions.

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Yamato

As clearly demonstrated by the smouldering hole in the ground that is Palestine and Iran.

ohh wait ....

Ohh wait.... that 45% unemployment rate in Gaza is just because Palestinians are lazy, huh? Really?

Israel can't harm Iran, save with their alleged nukes. If attacking Iran was far easier than it is, if it was actually possible for Israel to do it effectively, they would have already, just like they attacked Syria.

But the West Bank? That swiss cheesed spider web Israel is making good and sure will never be a state? Palestinians are either a disarmed, humiliated, herded and besieged people who voted for the right party, or they're the besieged economically-starved people who voted for the wrong party, and since most of the besieged population consists of innocent children who didn't even vote, it makes this suffocation policy even more sickening. Do you value freedom sir? How do you ignore what's going on over there?

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and then

Ohh wait.... that 45% unemployment rate in Gaza is just because Palestinians are lazy, huh? Really?

Israel can't harm Iran, save with their alleged nukes. If attacking Iran was far easier than it is, if it was actually possible for Israel to do it effectively, they would have already, just like they attacked Syria.

But the West Bank? That swiss cheesed spider web Israel is making good and sure will never be a state? Palestinians are either a disarmed, humiliated, herded and besieged people who voted for the right party, or they're the besieged economically-starved people who voted for the wrong party, and since most of the besieged population consists of innocent children who didn't even vote, it makes this suffocation policy even more sickening. Do you value freedom sir? How do you ignore what's going on over there?

You really have a full on disconnect on the situation don't you? Totally unable to even entertain the idea that unending aggression A- actually exists and B- CANNOT be ignored. Unless they are being pummelled by Israeli weapons occasionally they simply will NOT stop with the rocket fire. Unless a physical barrier is erected they will NOT stop bus and restaurant bombings. So is the issue here that they are just assumed to be justified and therefore can take whatever acts they feel are necessary to drive Israel into the sea? Or is some real compromise available that leaves a state of Israel there that is Jewish in character? The size of it is not as important as the security of that goal. So which is it?

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Yamato

You really have a full on disconnect on the situation don't you? Totally unable to even entertain the idea that unending aggression A- actually exists and B- CANNOT be ignored. Unless they are being pummelled by Israeli weapons occasionally they simply will NOT stop with the rocket fire. Unless a physical barrier is erected they will NOT stop bus and restaurant bombings. So is the issue here that they are just assumed to be justified and therefore can take whatever acts they feel are necessary to drive Israel into the sea? Or is some real compromise available that leaves a state of Israel there that is Jewish in character? The size of it is not as important as the security of that goal. So which is it?

The perpetual aggression is all Israel's. As a real Christian, I forgive people who've long been dead or put in prison for violent/terrorist acts of aggression.

What I can't do is use excuses from 70 years ago, or 3000 years ago, to make innocent people suffer TODAY. And then stand here and act like I don't see it like some of you.

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The perpetual aggression is all Israel's. As a real Christian, I forgive people who've long been dead or put in prison for violent/terrorist acts of aggression.

What I can't do is use excuses from 70 years ago, or 3000 years ago, to make innocent people suffer TODAY. And then stand here and act like I don't see it like some of you.

You didn't say anything about the near constant rocket fire after Gaza was evacuated, why is that?
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Sir Wearer of Hats
But the West Bank? That swiss cheesed spider web Israel is making good and sure will never be a state? Palestinians are either a disarmed, humiliated, herded and besieged people who voted for the right party, or they're the besieged economically-starved people who voted for the wrong party, and since most of the besieged population consists of innocent children who didn't even vote, it makes this suffocation policy even more sickening. Do you value freedom sir?

Here's a shocking thought - how about everyone stops shooting at everyone else.

Crazy thought isn't it?

Rather then using the moments of silence offered by the other side to reload and attack, actually stick your head up out of the trench and ask "fancy a pint?"

How do you ignore what's going on over there?

By being what And Then once called a "cheerleader of Anti-Semitism" - saying that Israel is wrong in doing what they're doing.

Other then that, I'm just p***ing onto a housefire.

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Yamato

Here's a shocking thought - how about everyone stops shooting at everyone else.

Crazy thought isn't it?

Yeah well you're everyone and I'm everyone. And with a subject the size of everyone, there's a lot of shooting going on.

Japan didn't have a UN Resolution to authorize their invasion of Port Moresby, is that what makes the difference? What's worth shooting over? That? Freedom? Anything?

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Yamato

You didn't say anything about the near constant rocket fire after Gaza was evacuated, why is that?

I didn't say anything about Palestinians being the exclusionary people somehow not allowed to defend themselves, did you?

Gaza was besieged after it was evacuated. It was an ugly scene that should have never had to happen, it's another glaringly obvious reason to join me in opposing the illegal hilltop settlements in the West Bank. What does that have to do with Israel's criminal use of White Phosphorous?

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Yeah well you're everyone and I'm everyone. And with a subject the size of everyone, there's a lot of shooting going on.

Japan didn't have a UN Resolution to authorize their invasion of Port Moresby, is that what makes the difference? What's worth shooting over? That? Freedom? Anything?

If the Palestinians truly stopped - even for a year and carried out NO attacks of any kind then Israel would have no way to do other than bend to the will of the international community. Their excuse for the walls and the checkpoints would be GONE. My guess is that you would find such restraint on the part of the Palestinians asking too much. But it would once for all give the lie to Israelis saying all they want is peace and security wouldn't it? Conversely, if the Palestinians tried to be restrained in such a way what do you think would happen to Hanieh and Abbas? Their entire careers and integrity have always been about destroying the Jews and taking back Palestine. They - even if they changed their hearts and actually TRIED - could not pull off such a 180. The shooting will continue until someone either wins or an external actor IMPOSES a peace. Edited by and then

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I didn't say anything about Palestinians being the exclusionary people somehow not allowed to defend themselves, did you?

Gaza was besieged after it was evacuated. It was an ugly scene that should have never had to happen, it's another glaringly obvious reason to join me in opposing the illegal hilltop settlements in the West Bank. What does that have to do with Israel's criminal use of White Phosphorous?

Israel did not TARGET civilians or use it near where civilians lived as a WEAPON. It was being used according to the rules of war and those who were burned had been warned for DAYS to leave the area to be bombarded. Yam you waste time with these arguments because we both know that ANYTHING the Palestinians do is justified by "occupation" and EVERYTHING Israel does is criminal in your site. Can you define bias? I am much more fair minded about this conflict than you are - even when you factor in my ADMITTED BIAS for the state of Israel and her people.

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Yamato

If the Palestinians truly stopped - even for a year and carried out NO attacks of any kind then Israel would have no way to do other than bend to the will of the international community. Their excuse for the walls and the checkpoints would be GONE. My guess is that you would find such restraint on the part of the Palestinians asking too much. But it would once for all give the lie to Israelis saying all they want is peace and security wouldn't it? Conversely, if the Palestinians tried to be restrained in such a way what do you think would happen to Hanieh and Abbas? Their entire careers and integrity have always been about destroying the Jews and taking back Palestine. They - even if they changed their hearts and actually TRIED - could not pull off such a 180. The shooting will continue until someone either wins or an external actor IMPOSES a peace.

There's been plenty of lulls like that in the "attacks" which are obviously not attacks when their freedom and livelihood are already under attack every day. There's relapses into retaliation caused by things like emotions, logic, revenge, nationalism, ethnic differences, religion, geopolitics of all slimy kinds. There's so many excuses to swim in on both sides, it fogs up your vision real quick.

If Israel was doing these same inhuman crimes against the southerners from Podunk, Alabama where you live right now, every rifle and shotgun would come down off the mantle, out the case and off the back of the truck, and rightly so.

Israel did not TARGET civilians or use it near where civilians lived as a WEAPON. It was being used according to the rules of war and those who were burned had been warned for DAYS to leave the area to be bombarded. Yam you waste time with these arguments because we both know that ANYTHING the Palestinians do is justified by "occupation" and EVERYTHING Israel does is criminal in your site. Can you define bias? I am much more fair minded about this conflict than you are - even when you factor in my ADMITTED BIAS for the state of Israel and her people.

That's not what was objectively concluded. But nice try with the lies all the same.

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and then

There's been plenty of lulls like that in the "attacks" which are obviously not attacks when their freedom and livelihood are already under attack every day. There's relapses into retaliation caused by things like emotions, logic, revenge, nationalism, ethnic differences, religion, geopolitics of all slimy kinds. There's so many excuses to swim in on both sides, it fogs up your vision real quick.

If Israel was doing these same inhuman crimes against the southerners from Podunk, Alabama where you live right now, every rifle and shotgun would come down off the mantle, out the case and off the back of the truck, and rightly so.

That's not what was objectively concluded. But nice try with the lies all the same.

WP is legal for use as a screening device and for illumination. Many militaries use it. The protocol for this was actually never signed by Israel but they abide by it anyway. Their field unit commanders admitted to using it as such. Whether anyone here believes me or not is their business but I'm not the one throwing out the insults and labels on this one. I live in Alabama and "podunk" is an insult also. I would appreciate it if we could keep this somewhat civil - we both know what happens if we don't.

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Yamato

WP is legal for use as a screening device and for illumination. Many militaries use it. The protocol for this was actually never signed by Israel but they abide by it anyway. Their field unit commanders admitted to using it as such. Whether anyone here believes me or not is their business but I'm not the one throwing out the insults and labels on this one. I live in Alabama and "podunk" is an insult also. I would appreciate it if we could keep this somewhat civil - we both know what happens if we don't.

Israel has smoke shells if they want a smokescreen.

Podunk didn't describe you, don't take it personally. The behavior of the locals there are how I described nonetheless.

Thanks for that lesson in fundamentals of White Phosphorous but it doesn't excuse Israel's WMD crimes. I'm not blaming the weapon, I'm not blaming anyone for having it, I'm looking only at how it's used.

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lightly

Of course nuclear weapons , possessed by anyone, are a threat... offensive or retaliatory . Isn't that the idea?

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Yamato

The claim is suggested repeatedly by the usual suspects: If Palestinians would only stop resisting, Israel wouldn't keep doing what it's doing. Migrating and settling the land isn't punishment for the lack of absolute submission and this unique promise of pacifism exclusive only to Palestinians, it's an entitlement complex woven by a political movement called Zionism.

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jeem

Man, do you just live in a bass ackwards world or what? Israel's neighbors attack Israel. The UN is a den of thieves. Meanwhile, Iran, the World's number one proprietor of Terrorism gets a pass? Please wake up Yamato. We are all doomed..but not because of Israel...mostly because of thought processes such as yours.

When has Israel ever attacked any country in the region that wasn't threatening her?

I would say human rights are continuously violated because of people who have thought like you .

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and then

I would say human rights are continuously violated because of people who have thought like you .

Jeem I disagree and here's why: IF the world really felt strongly that Israel was being unjust to the Palestinians in a serious way then those nations would bring sanctions. I'm not talking about BDS, I mean REAL sanctions by UN member states. The US cannot stop other nations from deciding not to buy from or sell to Israel. I think the real truth is that those nations may not like the situation there but they realize it isn't more unjust for Palestinians than for Israelis. IF the Palestinians stopped shooting and the Israelis continued to then that worldview might change - we don't know because it's never really been tried. EVEN I would support the Palestinians if they really took the route of peaceful protest and the Israelis kept up their activities in the disputed territories.

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thyra

Good points Mr.Yamato :). I once listened to the president of israel on TV, it was amazing to find out that they are feeling totally threatened. This should be something psychological.

Edited by thyra
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Space Commander Travis

Jeem I disagree and here's why: IF the world really felt strongly that Israel was being unjust to the Palestinians in a serious way then those nations would bring sanctions. I'm not talking about BDS, I mean REAL sanctions by UN member states. The US cannot stop other nations from deciding not to buy from or sell to Israel. I think the real truth is that those nations may not like the situation there but they realize it isn't more unjust for Palestinians than for Israelis. IF the Palestinians stopped shooting and the Israelis continued to then that worldview might change - we don't know because it's never really been tried. EVEN I would support the Palestinians if they really took the route of peaceful protest and the Israelis kept up their activities in the disputed territories.

Sanctions? If the US didn't approve, would sanctions even be possible, let alone have any chance at all of achieving anything? I mean, even sanctions that the US has been right behind (e.g. Cuba, Iraq) managed to achieve absolutely nothing in terms of changing the policies or leadership of the governments, did they?

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