Extraterrestrial Etiquette.

[psyche101]

You live in a different world to me Frank. It used to be great. But now we have this:

It doesn't take a great deal of reasoning to argue that the quality of human creativity is rapidly declining.

As is behaviour, standards, attitudes, honour, morals, and just about everything else.

How extremely limited. We do marvelous things with rocks artistically, using some very ordinary tools.

[psyche101]

My reasoning is sound. Your judgement is simply awful.

I suspect Seb Farrington is equally impressed with your drivel.

[psyche101]

I doubt they would be considering it, I use ants as an example to say that there is no reason for aliens from another planet to resemble us or even want to communicate with us.

However, we are the only species capable of structured languages on the planet. Instinctual sounds and warnings are not what I consider a complete structured language. Nothing on earth has communications as extensive or versatile as we do. So to ignore that would indeed seem rather ignorant to me. With regards to communications they do not have much choice, they talk to us, or moo at a cow or something. We can give answers, which would be hugely beneficial to any species that might study life on this planet.

Building structures and living within an advanced society where they can all work and live together are what ants are good at. If an alien from another planet was an advanced ant with the capability to travel, trust me, it would be far far more intelligent than any human on Earth.

Why? We have had the ability to travel to the stars since the 60's. Why do people think aliens can only be advanced? Why can no visiting species be at our level?

Sorry, I am not going to trust you on that one, what else do you have to support your ideal?

How do you come up with this? Man has not been on this planet for that long, compared to the dinosaur its been a very short time.

Where in the heck does evolution offer a guideline that they will be rather familiar to us? If anything the complete opposite.

For an alien to be similar to us, you assume that it comes from a planet similar to ours and that the alien will have legs, arms and similar features. Evolution has shown that it is not only man which evolves, but all animals, there is nothing to say that on another planet humans have not even appeared there and it is an animal similar to one on Earth that is the ruling party...evolution on another planet with life does not have to be anything like on Earth.

How do I come up with this? Logic. You completely discount convergent evolution, and this pool of one has provided many examples. In order for life to survive, the catalyst of oxygen is required, and considering the same laws of physics apply across the universe, and the building blocks for life are common throughout the universe, and the hominid shape is the only one in 50 billion shapes to arise on this earth that is capable of an industrial revolution, and that this shape is perfect for manipulation of the environment to meet the requirements to become and intelligent species seems pretty good reasoning to me. If we found life on every moon and every planet, then you would have a point, but it is rather obvious that life requires certain conditions to rise, and then again further specific parameters to attain intelligence. Religion made us look at the environment, farming gave us a need for accounting, compassion gave us the ability to care for others of our species, which in turn eventually evolved into the afterlife. It seems a pretty natural progression as to how a species would attain intelligence, and it seems better than making up stuff I think? And I know for a fact, this process does work. For sure, some changes will be there, but I see no reason to think alien life would be drastically different. Do you have an idea what other life might look like, or do you simply insist such cannot possibly be estimated?

I'd suggest that you google some Simon Conway Morris.

[freetoroam]

Why? We have had the ability to travel to the stars since the 60's. Why do people think aliens can only be advanced? Why can no visiting species be at our level?

This is a joke right?

Any alien from another planet which has managed to find the way to travel through space in a craft which they have built and is capable of sustaining life on board, is obviously going to be more advanced than us.

At the moment our knowledge of space is what has been captured by spacecrafts sending us back pictures, man has not travelled himself any further than the moon.

One day I am sure we will, but at the moment we have no where near a spacecraft which can take a human being anywhere near the edges of our solar system, so if another life form has managed it, no way can we be on their level....far from it.

[freetoroam]

How do I come up with this? Logic. You completely discount convergent evolution, and this pool of one has provided many examples. In order for life to survive, the catalyst of oxygen is required, and considering the same laws of physics apply across the universe, and the building blocks for life are common throughout the universe, and the hominid shape is the only one in 50 billion shapes to arise on this earth that is capable of an industrial revolution, and that this shape is perfect for manipulation of the environment to meet the requirements to become and intelligent species seems pretty good reasoning to me. If we found life on every moon and every planet, then you would have a point, but it is rather obvious that life requires certain conditions to rise, and then again further specific parameters to attain intelligence. Religion made us look at the environment, farming gave us a need for accounting, compassion gave us the ability to care for others of our species, which in turn eventually evolved into the afterlife. It seems a pretty natural progression as to how a species would attain intelligence, and it seems better than making up stuff I think? And I know for a fact, this process does work. For sure, some changes will be there, but I see no reason to think alien life would be drastically different. Do you have an idea what other life might look like, or do you simply insist such cannot possibly be estimated?

I'd suggest that you google some Simon Conway Morris.

Scientists have found the first multicellular animals that apparently live entirely without oxygen. The creatures reside deep in one of the harshest environments on earth: the Mediterranean Ocean's L'Atalante basin, which contains salt brine so dense that it doesn't mix with the oxygen-containing waters above. Previous samples taken from the water and sediments in the basin showed that single-celled life was present, but a new study published this week in BMC Biology has identified multi-cellular animals that apparently live and reproduce in the sediments under the salt brine. Italian and Danish researchers describe three new species of tiny animals called Loricifera. The animals took up radioactively tagged leucine (an amino acid), and a fluorescent probe that labels living cells, evidence that they were alive when they were collected. The researchers also found examples of individuals that contained eggs and evidence of apparent molting, which led them to conclude that the animals spend their whole lives in the harsh sediments. The creature's cells apparently lack mitochondria, the organelles that use oxygen to power a cell. Instead they are rich in what seem to be hydrogenosomes, organelles that can do a similar job in anaerobic (or oxygen free) environments. The find could help scientists understand what life might have looked like in the earth's early oceans, which also had very little oxygen.

http://news.sciencem...-without-oxygen

If it is possible on Earth, then anything is possible on another planet.

Edited October 30, 2013 by freetoroam

[psyche101]

This is a joke right?

Any alien from another planet which has managed to find the way to travel through space in a craft which they have built and is capable of sustaining life on board, is obviously going to be more advanced than us.

At the moment our knowledge of space is what has been captured by spacecrafts sending us back pictures, man has not travelled himself any further than the moon.

One day I am sure we will, but at the moment we have no where near a spacecraft which can take a human being anywhere near the edges of our solar system, so if another life form has managed it, no way can we be on their level....far from it.

So... I take it you unaware of the Orion project? The largest of which was capable of housing 800 people and theoretically capable of attaining approximately 12% the speed of light with the assistance of nuclear propulsion?

Had the Nuclear test ban treaty not ended the project, we could be on our way back from Alpha Centauri right now. To date, it still remains the best concept for viable interstellar travel.

Did you realise that theoretically, we can reach the center of the galaxy in 12 years assisted by length contraction and time dilation?

Why are other species like this not possible? Why do all the aliens people claim to see use stuff we happen to have in Science Fiction? Do all species go from jungle animals to advanced species in one step except us? Why is there no species just learning to cross space like us?

Edited October 30, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

Scientists have found the first multicellular animals that apparently live entirely without oxygen. The creatures reside deep in one of the harshest environments on earth: the Mediterranean Ocean's L'Atalante basin, which contains salt brine so dense that it doesn't mix with the oxygen-containing waters above. Previous samples taken from the water and sediments in the basin showed that single-celled life was present, but a new study published this week in BMC Biology has identified multi-cellular animals that apparently live and reproduce in the sediments under the salt brine. Italian and Danish researchers describe three new species of tiny animals called Loricifera. The animals took up radioactively tagged leucine (an amino acid), and a fluorescent probe that labels living cells, evidence that they were alive when they were collected. The researchers also found examples of individuals that contained eggs and evidence of apparent molting, which led them to conclude that the animals spend their whole lives in the harsh sediments. The creature's cells apparently lack mitochondria, the organelles that use oxygen to power a cell. Instead they are rich in what seem to be hydrogenosomes, organelles that can do a similar job in anaerobic (or oxygen free) environments. The find could help scientists understand what life might have looked like in the earth's early oceans, which also had very little oxygen.

http://news.sciencem...-without-oxygen

If it is possible on Earth, then anything is possible on another planet.

That happened on earth, this place did not have oxygen to begin with either, bacteria created it. And the organisms you are describing thrives where? Here, on earth. Water Bears have managed to survive the vacuum of space! But how many water bears does it take to build a spaceship?

You seem to have microbial forms and basic life mixed up with intelligent life, they are not one and the same. I expect much life to be out there, but I suspect only a small fraction of that to have attained intelligence.

Do you see Loricifera building complex communications systems, making spaceships, and visiting and studying us?

And has Loricifera been discovered in any place other than earth, or are you using the same pool of one that I did, which shows that out of 50 billion body shapes, only one was capable of instigating an Industrial Revolution?

Do not get me wrong, you have a good argument, I just see rather large holes in that logic. Many have presented it, and I have debated it before. However, using our pool of one, convergent evolution, as well as the rise of man offers some compelling information. I really think alien life will be quite familiar, and have not see a better argument that refutes that notion.

I am afraid that some things simply are not possible on other planets. They too are bound by the same laws of physics we are.

Edited October 30, 2013 by psyche101

[keninsc]

You can't practice such a thing because you have no idea what their customs and beliefs are, you might hold up your hand to show greeting and they take it as a challenge........and the war begins.

[psyche101]

You can't practice such a thing because you have no idea what their customs and beliefs are, you might hold up your hand to show greeting and they take it as a challenge........and the war begins.

I really doubt that from the hypothetical intelligent space faring species being depicted. That is what happened when we first crossed waters, but any species that has managed to attain the ability for interstellar travel would surely have experienced first contact many, many times and would have a good clue as to the best ways to initiate such with most style of culture. If they want the planet, well, I really doubt we would get much of a say. Even we in our state could threaten another planet if we wanted to.

This I feel assumes that an intelligent species would be in all regards, savages. Not a highly intelligent species.

[freetoroam]

So... I take it you unaware of the Orion project? The largest of which was capable of housing 800 people and theoretically capable of attaining approximately 12% the speed of light with the assistance of nuclear propulsion?

Had the Nuclear test ban treaty not ended the project, we could be on our way back from Alpha Centauri right now. To date, it still remains the best concept for viable interstellar travel.

Did you realise that theoretically, we can reach the center of the galaxy in 12 years assisted by length contraction and time dilation?

Why are other species like this not possible? Why do all the aliens people claim to see use stuff we happen to have in Science Fiction? Do all species go from jungle animals to advanced species in one step except us? Why is there no species just learning to cross space like us?

The Orion spacecraft will carry astronauts into deep space. Then it will bring them safely back to Earth. Orion will be able to travel to Mars or even an asteroid. Orion also could carry crews or supplies to the space station.

Orion will launch on top of a huge rocket. NASA is building this rocket. It is called a heavy-lift launch vehicle. It will take Orion farther into space than people have been before.

Orion will use energy from the sun, which is called solar energy. Orion has solar panels that look like round wings. They will get power from the sun when Orion is in space.

http://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/k-4/stories/what-is-orion-k4.html

Orion’s first crewed launch, Exploration Mission-1, is scheduled for 2021, when NASA plans to send two astronauts to an asteroid in lunar orbit, with the help of NASA’s new heavy-lift rocket, the Space Launch System. It will be the farthest humans have traveled in more than 40 years, and Orion will ultimately allow us to go even farther, including to destinations such as Mars

http://www.nasa.gov/content/astronauts-practice-launching-in-nasa-s-new-orion-spacecraft/

It has not been done yet and they will not be travelling beyond our solar system. This actually proves my point...although this would be the start of a new level in space exploration of which man will be in it, there is still a long way to go before man leaves our solar system..so IF an alien spacecraft with aliens on it can travel through the Universe then they are way way way more advance than us in terms of manned space travel.

[psyche101]

The Orion spacecraft will carry astronauts into deep space. Then it will bring them safely back to Earth. Orion will be able to travel to Mars or even an asteroid. Orion also could carry crews or supplies to the space station.

Orion will launch on top of a huge rocket. NASA is building this rocket. It is called a heavy-lift launch vehicle. It will take Orion farther into space than people have been before.

Orion will use energy from the sun, which is called solar energy. Orion has solar panels that look like round wings. They will get power from the sun when Orion is in space.

http://www.nasa.gov/...s-orion-k4.html

Orion’s first crewed launch, Exploration Mission-1, is scheduled for 2021, when NASA plans to send two astronauts to an asteroid in lunar orbit, with the help of NASA’s new heavy-lift rocket, the Space Launch System. It will be the farthest humans have traveled in more than 40 years, and Orion will ultimately allow us to go even farther, including to destinations such as Mars

http://www.nasa.gov/...ion-spacecraft/

It has not been done yet and they will not be travelling beyond our solar system. This actually proves my point...although this would be the start of a new level in space exploration of which man will be in it, there is still a long way to go before man leaves our solar system..so IF an alien spacecraft with aliens on it can travel through the Universe then they are way way way more advance than us in terms of manned space travel.

Wrong one, I said we had this capabilities since the 60's remember?

Try Googling Orion and add Nuclear Propulsion after it to get the correct project, here is a link to the Wikipedia page.

This is the concept. Fascinating piece of history, the Put Put experiments with explosive propulsion were really quite impressive.

Edited October 30, 2013 by psyche101

[DONTEATUS]

THe Topic is E.T etiquette ! As In When they sit down to meet with us and dine,do they for instance ,even dine ? Or Talk,or Would even be in the same dimension as us ?

THe Dead give away will be the pinkie finger raised when we call for Hight Tea !

And DId they bring there place of birth documentation ? Remember the crap we gave Obama !

Edited October 30, 2013 by DONTEATUS

[freetoroam]

That happened on earth, this place did not have oxygen to begin with either, bacteria created it. And the organisms you are describing thrives where? Here, on earth. Water Bears have managed to survive the vacuum of space! But how many water bears does it take to build a spaceship?

You seem to have microbial forms and basic life mixed up with intelligent life, they are not one and the same.

You have missed the point. As you mentioned evolutionary guidelines, this throws that right out of the water (no pun intended). On another planet evolution could have developed around creatures without the need for oxygen as we know it.

So you can not possibly know how these multicellular animals could develop over time and to what extent their intelligence can develop to.

Man did not start out as computer literate, book reading, intelligent beings, it developed over time...as so did we physically, hence evolution as we know it on Earth in accordance to our environment.

[freetoroam]

Wrong one, I said we had this capabilities since the 60's remember?

Try Googling Orion and add Nuclear Propulsion after it to get the correct project, here is a link to the Wikipedia page.

This is the concept. Fascinating piece of history, the Put Put experiments with explosive propulsion were really quite impressive.

But this is going nowhere. The Orion project article I put up is a part of the new project using energy form the Sun.

Fascinating it may be, but the nuclear propulsion spacecraft is not happening.

Please read the "Potential problems" bit at the bottom of the page and it will explain why.

I did see that article, but thought you could not possibly mean that one because it has been shelved.

[psyche101]

You have missed the point.

I honestly doubt that.

As you mentioned evolutionary guidelines, this throws that right out of the water (no pun intended). On another planet evolution could have developed around creatures without the need for oxygen as we know it.

No, do you understand the role of oxygen in life? It's pretty important with regards to the rise of life. Why do you suppose that the earliest evidence of complex multicellular animal life appears around 550 million years ago, when atmospheric oxygen levels on the planet rose sharply from 3% to their modern day level of 21%? Oxygen, being as reactive as it is, can liberate a large amount of energy to an organism that has learned how to deal with it, making possible the evolution of larger and more advanced lifeforms. Just as importantly, a byproduct of the rise of O2 in the atmosphere was the rise of O3, creating the ozone layer and shielding out cell-damaging UV radiation. This allowed life to finally leave the protection of the oceans and colonize the land.

So you can not possibly know how these multicellular animals could develop over time and to what extent their intelligence can develop to.

Actually, your very link tells me just that.

The loricates are believed to be miniaturized descendants of a larger organism perhaps resembling the Cambrian fossil Sirilorica

They have been here longer than us. I do not see a Loriciferan Industrial Revolution. (LINK)

Man did not start out as computer literate, book reading, intelligent beings, it developed over time...as so did we physically, hence evolution as we know it on Earth in accordance to our environment.

Yes, evolution, that pool of one I keep referring to, things like farming required accounting, one things leads to another simply for the sake of survival after leaving the hunter gatherer stage. Evolution goes beyond the physical boundary. Why do you feel that must be different some place else?

Edited October 30, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

But this is going nowhere. The Orion project article I put up is a part of the new project using energy form the Sun.

Fascinating it may be, but the nuclear propulsion spacecraft is not happening.

Please read the "Potential problems" bit at the bottom of the page and it will explain why.

I did see that article, but thought you could not possibly mean that one because it has been shelved.

It was ended only by fears of fallout back to earth, I did read potential problems, and as I did pint the project at you, you must realise I am quite aware of them. and the very fact they were largely minor annoyances, and were resolved.

It still remains to date the best concept for interstellar travel, if we had to leave earth in a urry, this is our only chance to make that a success at this point in time.

Overshadowed by the moon race, Orion was forgotten by almost everybody except Freeman Dyson and Theodore Taylor. Dyson in particular seems to have been deeply affected by his experience. The story of Orion is important, he says, "...because this is the first time in modern history that a major expansion of human technology has been suppressed for political reasons"(52). His 1968 paper (53) gives more physical details of nuclear pulse drives, and even suggests extremely large starships powered by fusion explosions. Ultimately he became disillusioned with the concept, primarily because of the radiation hazard associated with the early ground-launch idea. Yet he says that the most extensive flight program envisaged by Taylor and himself would have added no more than 1% to the atmospheric contamination then (circa 1960) being created by the weapons-testing of the major powers (54).

Does it make any sense to even think of reviving the nuclear-pulse concept? Economically the answer is yes. Pedersen (55) says that 10,000-ton spaceships with 10,000-ton payloads are feasible. Spaceships like this could be relatively cheap compared to Shuttle-like vehicles due to their heavyweight construction. One tends to think of shipyards with heavy plates being lowered into place by cranes. How much would the pulse units cost? Pedersen gives the amazingly low figure of $10,000 to $40,000 per unit for the early Martin design (56); there is reason to think that $1 million is an upper limit (57). Primarily from strength of materials considerations, Dyson (58) argues that 30 meters/second (about 100 feet/second) is the maximum velocity increment that could be obtained from a single pulse. Given that low-altitude orbital velocity is about 26,000 feet/second, around 350 pulses would be required (59). Using $500,000 as a reasonable pulse-unit cost, this implies a "fuel cost" of $175 million, cheaper than a Shuttle launch. Whereas the Shuttle might carry thirty tons of payload, the pulse vehicle would carry thousands. If one uses the extreme example of spending $5 billion to build a vehicle to lift 10,000 tons (or 20 million pounds) to orbit, the cost if spread over a single flight is $250 per pound, far cheaper than the accepted figure of $5,000 to $6,000 per pound for a Shuttle flight.

LINK

And the British Interplanetary Society are still discussing the concept and modern variations:

Date: 25 April 2013

Start Time: 7 pm

End Time: 8:30 pm

Venue: 27/29 South Lambeth Road, Vauxhall, London, SW8 1SZ

The concept of interplanetary spacecraft directly propelled by unprecedented extreme external nuclear pulse propulsion is discussed. Also, plasma pulsed propulsion using a series of external nuclear explosions of atomic bombs without attempting to contain the explosions in an internal structure. The Orion concept offered simultaneously high thrust and high specific impulse.

LINK

And, I take it you did not read "Later Developments"?

From 1998 to the present, the nuclear engineering department at Pennsylvania State University has been developing two improved versions of project Orion known as Project ICAN and Project AIMStar using compactantimatter catalyzed nuclear pulse propulsion units,^[17] rather than the large inertial confinement fusion ignition systems proposed in Project Daedalus and Longshot.^[18]

I think "going nowhere" is not at all correct, Private Enterprise started playing with it about 15 years ago, and a version of the original project has been resurrected. I think modern technology is being applied to the older concept, however the cost needs to be covered by someone, that I would say it the real stumbling block here.

However, the main point was that you said we cannot cross space, that is not correct, we can, we just need funding. We could have already been to Alpha Centauri, and be on our way back right now if the Nuclear Test Ban treaty had not ended the Orion Project.

And I did say exactly that to begin with, so why you would not be looking at project from the 60's defunct or not, is puzzling. It can indeed do what so many say we cannot. Whether we have or not is beside that issue. The capability does indeed exist.

So why can no other species be at this stage? Why only advanced species? Why has no other species gone ahead like we could have, why do they all wait until they are uber advanced, to a point where they happen to mirror our Sci Fi culture? Why no species just starting out with space travel rolling into the Solar System with big loud clunky polluting machines? We all had to wait for the Universe to evolve, some bits did not get a major head start, but for some reason, space travel implies one?

Do you say it is impossible for this concept to become practical? Is that not what the question asked?

[freetoroam]

No, do you understand the role of oxygen in life? It's pretty important with regards to the rise of life. Why do you suppose that the earliest evidence of complex multicellular animal life appears around 550 million years ago, when atmospheric oxygen levels on the planet rose sharply from 3% to their modern day level of 21%? Oxygen, being as reactive as it is, can liberate a large amount of energy to an organism that has learned how to deal with it, making possible the evolution of larger and more advanced lifeforms. Just as importantly, a byproduct of the rise of O2 in the atmosphere was the rise of O3, creating the ozone layer and shielding out cell-damaging UV radiation. This allowed life to finally leave the protection of the oceans and colonize the land.

I understand the role of oxygen in regards to life on Earth.

These multicellular animal have been found recently and ARE living without oxygen.

Actually, your very link tells me just that.

The loricates are believed to be miniaturized descendants of a larger organism perhaps resembling the Cambrian fossil Sirilorica

They have been here longer than us. I do not see a Loriciferan Industrial Revolution. (LINK)

The reason you do not see Loriciferan Industrial Revolution, is because they are not top of the food chain on this planet, we are, but on another planet, it could be completely different if oxygen is not pretty important as regards to life there.

we are assuming that nothing can survive on any other planet unless it is similar to ours and yet we need not even leave Earth to see that animals and sea life can survive on here under completely different atmospheric conditions eg: these multicellular animals they have just found.

[freetoroam]

And I did say exactly that to begin with, so why you would not be looking at project from the 60's defunct or not, is puzzling. It can indeed do what so many say we cannot. Whether we have or not is beside that issue. The capability does indeed exist.

But that's the point...IT CAN`T.

If NASA thought it would work then why have they chosen to use the energy from the Sun instead of nuclear propulsion?

[Oniomancer]

[psyche101]

I understand the role of oxygen in regards to life on Earth.

These multicellular animal have been found recently and ARE living without oxygen.

They have been for millions upon millions of years, we did see them evolve. And where did they find them? At the bottom of the L'Atalante basin in Mediterranean Sea. And, they seems to be getting smaller if anything.

How is it your propose this simple life form is capable of building starships? We have seen the eventual evolution over millions of millions of years, it went nowhere, and why? It fulfills a role, life tends to fit in with the environment, and shapes to suit it, we are the only species that shapes the environment to suit us. Heck, it has not even left the Ocean yet!!

The reason you do not see Loriciferan Industrial Revolution, is because they are not top of the food chain on this planet, we are, but on another planet, it could be completely different if oxygen is not pretty important as regards to life there.

What you are saying is that life here might evolve into something someplace else, yet it did have the whole planet to itself at one stage, and it remains there to this day, fulfilling it's role in the ecosystem.

Saying it is going to evolve into something else under different condition is just making stuff up, and unsupported at that. We have these organisms here, and we are looking at their current stage of evolution through microscopes. That we make. What reason do you have to state that it can evolve into something more than what we see?

we are assuming that nothing can survive on any other planet unless it is similar to ours and yet we need not even leave Earth to see that animals and sea life can survive on here under completely different atmospheric conditions eg: these multicellular animals they have just found.

Nope, we are assuming nothing, we are using a pool of one, and the evolution of 50 billion body shapes that have evolved here, and considering how environments affected the rise of life here on earth in all forms. And it shows us the convergent evolution is a very successful model, and that successful life form repeat themselves, such as the famous example of the Tasmanian Tiger - a Marsupial, the the everyday canine. If a certain body shape lends itself to success, why would one consider it unlikely in other places?

How is being on earth "completely different atmospheric conditions"?

Edited October 30, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

But that's the point...IT CAN`T.

If NASA thought it would work then why have they chosen to use the energy from the Sun instead of nuclear propulsion?

Yes it can indeed, why do you state it is impossible for the Orion Concept to actually work?

The Orion you speak of is for local travel, solar panels are not going to be a great deal of use to you in the Oort cloud are they now?

From your link:

What Will Orion Do?

The Orion spacecraft will carry astronauts into deep space. Then it will bring them safely back to Earth. Orion will be able to travel to Mars or even an asteroid. Orion also could carry crews or supplies to the space station.

Not interstellar travel.

And then there is cost. Why travel physically to another planet anyway? If we can find intelligent life in the Universe, why would we, and they for that matter, not simply call ahead?

Actually, Ion drives look more promising at this point, and will likely break the record for travel to Mars significantly, it will come down from months to weeks.

Edited October 30, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

THe Topic is E.T etiquette ! As In When they sit down to meet with us and dine,do they for instance ,even dine ? Or Talk,or Would even be in the same dimension as us ?

THe Dead give away will be the pinkie finger raised when we call for Hight Tea !

And DId they bring there place of birth documentation ? Remember the crap we gave Obama !

I know mate, I am just trying to work out who it is we are talking to first I am hoping it is 7 of 9.

[psyche101]

You have missed the point. As you mentioned evolutionary guidelines, this throws that right out of the water (no pun intended). On another planet evolution could have developed around creatures without the need for oxygen as we know it.

So you can not possibly know how these multicellular animals could develop over time and to what extent their intelligence can develop to.

Man did not start out as computer literate, book reading, intelligent beings, it developed over time...as so did we physically, hence evolution as we know it on Earth in accordance to our environment.

Just thought I would also point out, that you are considering extremophiles, with harsh planets that have difficult start to life, yet somehow they managed to well and truly overtake us on the evolutionary timelines?

Edited October 30, 2013 by psyche101

[freetoroam]

What you are saying is that life here might evolve into something someplace else, yet it did have the whole planet to itself at one stage, and it remains there to this day, fulfilling it's role in the ecosystem.

Saying it is going to evolve into something else under different condition is just making stuff up, and unsupported at that. We have these organisms here, and we are looking at their current stage of evolution through microscopes. That we make. What reason do you have to state that it can evolve into something more than what we see?

It has lived here under Earths conditions. Humans have evolved and as humans we have evolved according to the part of the Earth we live in, (different climatic conditions, I am not making that up) hence the different races.

why do you state it is impossible for the Orion Concept to actually work?

The Orion you speak of is for local travel, solar panels are not going to be a great deal of use to you in the Oort cloud are they now?

It will not work because of the reasons it was shelved and the Orion I speak of is the new project.

Ofcourse the solar panels are not going to get them far, this is the reason I will go back to what started this off...we have not developed anything which will take man beyond the solar system, hence we can not possible be on the same level as an alien which has. (as of yet, there is no proof that anything from another planet has done that though)

Just thought I would also point out, that you are considering extremophiles, with harsh planets that have difficult start to life, yet somehow they managed to well and truly overtake us on the evolutionary timelines?

Not at all, it would be unlikely a planet which is difficult to live on and has harsh climatic conditions, would have life on it that is that advanced that they have the capability of building spaceships which can carry them across the Universe.

I got to go to bed, can not believe I am still up at this time, its your fault.

[keninsc]

I really doubt that from the hypothetical intelligent space faring species being depicted. That is what happened when we first crossed waters, but any species that has managed to attain the ability for interstellar travel would surely have experienced first contact many, many times and would have a good clue as to the best ways to initiate such with most style of culture. If they want the planet, well, I really doubt we would get much of a say. Even we in our state could threaten another planet if we wanted to.

This I feel assumes that an intelligent species would be in all regards, savages. Not a highly intelligent species.

That's not unrealistic, however for all we know they come here and turn out to be interstellar slavers come to turn a nice profit from this undeveloped world. The lofty goals of "Star Trek" would be nice, but take a look at your own neighborhood. You got all manner of people from the wonderful to the serial murderer. You really think it's not the same elsewhere?