A good question

[Mr Walker]

You haven't made it quite clear what the outcome is ,do you still love your wife or are you demented?

fullywired

Fortunately I see the humour in this, even though it touches a personal nerve.

While caring for my wife's parents, there came a point where each would wake up in the morning and ask why this strange person was in bed with them. They had lost all memory of their marriage to, and life with, the other. That was after 60 years of marriage So my answer would be that the fact I can still recognise my wife and remember /experience my love for her, would indicate I am not yet demented.

[Leonardo]

Actually you are wrong There are two forms of evidence which illustrate this. When entities have/ concepts their behaviour reflects this.

Really?

And what behaviour do you propose is indicative of a non-human religion? Human religious behaviour?

Every assertion you make that confers human behaviours onto non-human species simply reinforces the point I made, and that you engage in anthropocentrism.

[fullywired]

Fortunately I see the humour in this, even though it touches a personal nerve.

While caring for my wife's parents, there came a point where each would wake up in the morning and ask why this strange person was in bed with them. They had lost all memory of their marriage to, and life with, the other. That was after 60 years of marriage So my answer would be that the fact I can still recognise my wife and remember /experience my love for her, would indicate I am not yet demented.

If I offended you .please accept my humble apologies fullywired

[Mr. Miyagi]

Labyrinthus, First, sorry for the delayed response and second, I did not see what the alleged insult was I just saw the "snip" in your reply and it's cause. If there was done later resolution and this is a misunderstanding, then I apologize. However, I would like to add that insulting the intelligence of anyone, regardless of who or what group that is, I find of offensive in those type of discussions even if I am not included within that insult.

Ok, to PSR, I understand where you are coming from now, thank you for your revisiting a past post, I appreciate it!

Now, here's where I disagree. And I understand that this is a reiteration of what I've said already, however I think there's a misunderstanding. I'll try again. The universe exists. According to bbt it had a beginning. I'd like to add that science's understanding of what we view as "nothing" may have indeed been something, but that's just an interesting side note. To my point, if the universe exists and a creator exists outside of space and and time as we know it, then the universe also exists outside of its own space and time. Now, all we know about this place that must exist that the universe and a proposed creator occupy is that in order to exist within this place something must have a beginning and it must have been created. Since the supposed creator and the universe occupy this same space then so too must the creator have been created!

If one allows that something within this space does not need a creator than the universe itself may have simply always existed despite us not understanding that scientifically in the same way that we do not understand a proposed creator scientifically. For instance in Buddhism, the universe is viewed as always having existed.

Finally, I understand your philosophical background for viewing our existence as creation and I again thank you for the further explanation and link, but what I was more interested in was what it is that you see in the world that suggests creation. Empirically, if you will. Some of your own experiences and what not.

Thanks again for your responses here.

[Mr Walker]

If I offended you .please accept my humble apologies fullywired

No not offended and you couldn't know it might hurt. It just brought back some tough memories.. Nursing my parents in law for 6 years as they progressed through altzheimers was both difficult and rewarding. Although they died over 10 years ago, now it still hurts to think of a loving intelligent couple reduced to shells, with no human memory or intelligence left within them.

Eventually mum couldn't even remember how to eat from a spoon and basically starved to death.

But there were many funny moments in the early years. Mum escaping through a hospital window, pinning her doctor to a wall with her walking frame, and setting off each day to walk home ( a distance of about 30 kilometres) or commenting on the ocean liners sailing past our front gate (through fields of waving wheat.) We would let her have her daily constitutional then drive down the track and offer her a lift (which she always accepted) and bring her home again.

[fullywired]

No not offended and you couldn't know it might hurt. It just brought back some tough memories.. Nursing my parents in law for 6 years as they progressed through altzheimers was both difficult and rewarding. Although they died over 10 years ago, now it still hurts to think of a loving intelligent couple reduced to shells, with no human memory or intelligence left within them.

Eventually mum couldn't even remember how to eat from a spoon and basically starved to death.

But there were many funny moments in the early years. Mum escaping through a hospital window, pinning her doctor to a wall with her walking frame, and setting off each day to walk home ( a distance of about 30 kilometres) or commenting on the ocean liners sailing past our front gate (through fields of waving wheat.) We would let her have her daily constitutional then drive down the track and offer her a lift (which she always accepted) and bring her home again.

Yes it is a terrible affliction,I saw a friend of mine deteriorate to a state where she didn't know even her husband and required constant attention,she finally died 7 months ago

fullywired

[Labyrinthus]

Ok, to PSR, I understand where you are coming from now, thank you for your revisiting a past post, I appreciate it!

Now, here's where I disagree. And I understand that this is a reiteration of what I've said already, however I think there's a misunderstanding. I'll try again. The universe exists. According to bbt it had a beginning. I'd like to add that science's understanding of what we view as "nothing" may have indeed been something, but that's just an interesting side note. To my point, if the universe exists and a creator exists outside of space and and time as we know it, then the universe also exists outside of its own space and time. Now, all we know about this place that must exist that the universe and a proposed creator occupy is that in order to exist within this place something must have a beginning and it must have been created. Since the supposed creator and the universe occupy this same space then so too must the creator have been created!

Maybe... but that is not a meaningful discussion since I have yet to meet a person of Faith who claims to have met God personally and know God's Heart, and atheists claim that there is no god to 'know'... so talking about the Creator's origin is either moot or simply getting ahead of ourselves. For that level of discussion to become meaningful we must agree that there is a Creator, in the first place.

As far as, "then the universe also exists outside of its own space and time." -- FALSE! pure baloney... nope... not even close... complete made up nonsense with no basis in logic at all. That doesn't even make sense.

My uncle built a boat from scratch, a really nice one... by his own hands .... My uncle was not the boat and my uncle was not part of the finished boat (though his Heart was in it...). On rare occasions he would take the wheel but 99.999% it just bobbed up and down in dock, gently moving with the waves and the tide.

This insistence that The Creator be contained within Creation is completely bogus, illogical, irrational and complete made up nonsense.

If one allows that something within this space does not need a creator than the universe itself may have simply always existed despite us not understanding that scientifically in the same way that we do not understand a proposed creator scientifically. For instance in Buddhism, the universe is viewed as always having existed.

I do NOT allow that. I have stated that much outright more than once. In fact, it is completely antithetical to the PSR argument I just linked for you. You directly acknowledged that much. Why did you proceed as though that was never said?

And the claim that "in Buddhism, the universe is viewed as always having existed" is hugely misleading... that isn't what is really taught... but then there are a mazillion offshoots and countless pretenders... I am just saying... that is not an accurate representation of that teaching, at the ancient core, imho. Plus, if you want to lean on Buddhism, it is game over... since Buddhists believe in a Creator that has a separate beingness outside this system.

Finally, I understand your philosophical background for viewing our existence as creation and I again thank you for the further explanation and link, but what I was more interested in was what it is that you see in the world that suggests creation. Empirically, if you will. Some of your own experiences and what not.

Also, I do not view our existence as creation. Gahd! (you stated this earlier and I corrected this mis-phrasing). The endless stream of false assumptions from the skeptics is mind boggling. But I think I am beginning to understand the root of the mis-perception for the most part. Atheists must totally identify with their beingness as this mere material and corporeal bag of physical, emotional and mental knee jerk reactions. That would explain a lot.

Finally, yes, my own experiences are definitely key in my present belief system.

But I have long since abandoned hope that they might be persuasive to other individuals. To each his own. Each must choose his own Path.

It appears to me that those who reject and abandon faith relegate themselves to the rat's maze per saecula saeculorum.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Maybe... but that is not a meaningful discussion since I have yet to meet a person of Faith who claims to have met God personally and know God's Heart, and atheists claim that there is no god to 'know'... so talking about the Creator's origin is either moot or simply getting ahead of ourselves. For that level of discussion to become meaningful we must agree that there is a Creator, in the first place.

As far as, "then the universe also exists outside of its own space and time." -- FALSE! pure baloney... nope... not even close... complete made up nonsense with no basis in logic at all. That doesn't even make sense.

My uncle built a boat from scratch, a really nice one... by his own hands .... My uncle was not the boat and my uncle was not part of the finished boat (though his Heart was in it...). On rare occasions he would take the wheel but 99.999% it just bobbed up and down in dock, gently moving with the waves and the tide.

This insistence that The Creator be contained within Creation is completely bogus, illogical, irrational and complete made up nonsense.

I do NOT allow that. I have stated that much outright more than once. In fact, it is completely antithetical to the PSR argument I just linked for you. You directly acknowledged that much. Why did you proceed as though that was never said?

And the claim that "in Buddhism, the universe is viewed as always having existed" is hugely misleading... that isn't what is really taught... but then there are a mazillion offshoots and countless pretenders... I am just saying... that is not an accurate representation of that teaching, at the ancient core, imho. Plus, if you want to lean on Buddhism, it is game over... since Buddhists believe in a Creator that has a separate beingness outside this system.

Also, I do not view our existence as creation. Gahd! (you stated this earlier and I corrected this mis-phrasing). The endless stream of false assumptions from the skeptics is mind boggling. But I think I am beginning to understand the root of the mis-perception for the most part. Atheists must totally identify with their beingness as this mere material and corporeal bag of physical, emotional and mental knee jerk reactions. That would explain a lot.

Finally, yes, my own experiences are definitely key in my present belief system.

But I have long since abandoned hope that they might be persuasive to other individuals. To each his own. Each must choose his own Path.

It appears to me that those who reject and abandon faith relegate themselves to the rat's maze per saecula saeculorum.

Ok, I am not saying that a creator is contained within creation. I never said that. I said that the creator and and creation (universe) would have to exist within the same space. That same space is not the universe. It is a space external to the universe that both the universe and creator must occupy. Like the parallel painter and painting I mentioned. A painter painted the painting in a room. This room is a parallel for this place that both the universe and creator occupy. I don't how to make that anymore clear.

Next, as far as Buddhism, by all means, give me a source from the Pali Canon that states there is a creator. You are mistaken. Sorry. I the Buddha never taught such a thing. I don't lean on Buddhism. I'm a Buddhist, if one must attach a label.

Next, if you do not view our existence as creation, why did you mention PSR to explain your philosophical background here? If you do not view our existence as creation, then what do you view it as? I'm confused with your position on this.

Lastly, I'm not asking you about your experiences in order to be persuaded. Nor am I debating you. I'm just trying to have a discussion with you , yet you continue to have this abrasive and dismissive attitude. What is your problem?

I'm going to ask you to stop one last time, and discuss this as a level headed adult, otherwise this just isn't worth my time.

[Leonardo]

My uncle built a boat from scratch, a really nice one... by his own hands .... My uncle was not the boat and my uncle was not part of the finished boat (though his Heart was in it...). On rare occasions he would take the wheel but 99.999% it just bobbed up and down in dock, gently moving with the waves and the tide.

This insistence that The Creator be contained within Creation is completely bogus, illogical, irrational and complete made up nonsense.

What was the boat made of?

Wood, metal, some plastic and other materials. All things from within the same universe as the 'creator'. The 'creator' and the 'creation' were indeed contained within the same 'universe', and just as the creation is constrained by the laws and rules of that universe, so is the creator.

This insistence that The Creator is not bound by, or 'outside of', the rules that constrain the Creation is completely bogus, illogical, irrational and complete made-up nonsense.

See what I did there?

If you wish to use an analogy to make your point that this mythical 'Creator' occupies some equally mythical 'outside realm', then your analogy should use subjects that have an equally 'inside/outside' aspect, and to the best of my knowledge (and yours, I suspect) there is nothing that is outside our universe. Hence any analogy you could make is fatally flawed and the premise there is some 'Creator outside it's Creation' is equally flawed by way of being simply a guess.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Leonardo

[nothingman]

Belief in gravity is equally absurd but here I sit, bound to this cushion.

Life is absurd but I go on living. Why? Why not?

[Blood_Sacrifice]

It's no more absurd than believing you have your soulmate somewhere out there waiting for ya. If it makes anyone sleep better knowing someone is watching over yourself and it eases pain then there's nothing wrong with it. However, when taken to an extreme, anything can become harmful.