Pillars of Hercules

[granpa]

so where are the Pillars of Hercules?

people are talking about them as though we know for certain exactly where they are.

but is this really the case?

Edited November 2, 2013 by granpa

[jaylemurph]

...there is substantial agreement in the Greco-Roman and later traditions as to its location. Why don't we drop the fiction of you wanting to know where we think it is and you just hit us with your theory of how we're all wrong and you know where it "really" is.

Alternately, you could always hit up Wikipedia on your own and we can close this thread.

--Jaylemurph

[cern]

...there is substantial agreement in the Greco-Roman and later traditions as to its location. Why don't we drop the fiction of you wanting to know where we think it is and you just hit us with your theory of how we're all wrong and you know where it "really" is.

Alternately, you could always hit up Wikipedia on your own and we can close this thread.

--Jaylemurph

roman statements? can you cite some for me please? and some greek ones too? the ones i know don't agree with you really.

[jaylemurph]

roman statements? can you cite some for me please? and some greek ones too? the ones i know don't agree with you really.

Strabo, quoting Pindar: Geographica, 3.5.5

L. Annaeus Seneca the Younger, Hercules Furens, l. 235 and and Hercules Oetaeus, l. 1240.

Pliny, Historia Naturalis, Book three, chapter 4.

Diodorus of Sicily, Biblioteca Historia, 4.18.5.

That are additional comments in Herodotus, whose only extant work is the Histories, but (frankly) I can't be bothered to look up the exact citation. You can also look at the reconstructed bits of the Tabula Peutingeria, which reconstructed the lost section of Iberia using the above and other citations, or check the original bits to see where's it /not/ placed anywhere else.

So that's two Greek (three, if you include the secondary discussion in Strabo as a seperate citation), and four Latin ones, including the best known source of Roman general knowledge and one of the most highly-regarded philosophers of the time. I trust this is enough to prove my point.

There is, admittedly, some dispute over the Southern pillar, (cf. Strabo 3.5.3) but there's not any actual debate on the Northern one, the Rock of Gibraltar.

--Jaylemurph

EDIT: Most scholars doubt that Seneca himself wrote Hercules Oetaeus (although it's been a part of his collected works since the oldest extant manuscript, the Codex Etruscus, from the mid 11th Century, which is in turn based on [probably] a late fourth or early fifth century CE copy). Feel free to consider that a whole other source.

Edited November 2, 2013 by jaylemurph

[The Puzzler]

I'd have to say granpa that the Pillars of Heracles are most definitely at Gibraltar - they indicate imo the limits of Phoenician movements, of which Heracles is actually Phoenician Melqart and imo this Heracles is the Heracles Herodotus mentions as being very ancient in Egypt also - he is not the Greek Heracles.

The account which I received of this Hercules makes him one of the twelve gods. Of the other Hercules, with whom the Greeks are familiar, I could hear nothing in any part of Egypt. That the Greeks, however (those I mean who gave the son of Amphitryon that name), took the name from the Egyptians, and not the Egyptians from the Greeks, is I think clearly proved, among other arguments, by the fact that both the parents of Hercules, Amphitryon as well as Alcmena, were of Egyptian origin.

But the Egyptian Hercules is one of their ancient gods. Seventeen thousand years before the reign of Amasis, the twelve gods were, they affirm, produced from the eight: and of these twelve, Hercules is one.

In the wish to get the best information that I could on these matters, I made a voyage to Tyre in Phoenicia, hearing there was a temple of Hercules at that place, very highly venerated.

In Tyre I remarked another temple where the same god was worshipped as the Thasian Hercules. So I went on to Thasos, where I found a temple of Hercules which had been built by the Phoenicians who colonised that island when they sailed in search of Europa. Even this was five generations earlier than the time when Hercules, son of Amphitryon, was born in Greece. These researches show plainly that there is an ancient god Hercules; and my own opinion is that those Greeks act most wisely who build and maintain two temples of Hercules, in the one of which the Hercules worshipped is known by the name of Olympian, and has sacrifice offered to him as an immortal, while in the other the honours paid are such as are due to a hero.

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.2.ii.html

[+DieChecker]

I thought the Phoenicians also went down the west coast of Africa, or was that the Carthiginians?? Also didn't the Phoenicians travel up the west coast of Spain? Isn't Cadiz an ancient Phoenician outpost (Almost 100 miles NW of Gibraltar)?

I would also agree that the "Pillars of Hercules" were the strait at Gibraltar.

Edited November 5, 2013 by DieChecker

[jaylemurph]

I'd have to say granpa that the Pillars of Heracles are most definitely at Gibraltar - they indicate imo the limits of Phoenician movements, of which Heracles is actually Phoenician Melqart and imo this Heracles is the Heracles Herodotus mentions as being very ancient in Egypt also - he is not the Greek Heracles.

See: Puzzler and I agree on something. The chance for that to happen alone justifies opening this thread. (And frankly, her command of ancient historic sources is better than mine, so I'd give her far more credence than me.)

--Jaylemurph

[Mario Dantas]

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them

To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

Plato has given us, one of the most important clues in the Atlantis tale, the location of the island...

If we follow geographically what Plato told us, we come to the conclusion that being in front of the straits of Heracles (by the size of the island) is to be exactly or very close to the Azores Triple junction, where the three largest continents meet...

How incredibly coincident that the Azores Triple junction is in front the Pillars of Heracles. This junction lies within the largest gravitational anomaly on earth.

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Edited November 6, 2013 by Mario Dantas

[jaylemurph]

Oh, good. I was just thinking "Mario Dantas hasn't tried to hijack this thread yet". I'm glad you found time to go ahead and do that.

--Jaylemurph

Edited November 7, 2013 by jaylemurph

[cormac mac airt]

Oh, good. I was just thinking "Mario Dantas hasn't tried to hijack this thread yet". I'm glad you found time to go ahead and do that.

--Jaylemurph

Surely you've seen it before Jay, the overabundance of examples of just how wrong a person can be. You should be thanking him for showing you exactly why you shouldn't be taking him seriously.

cormac

[+DieChecker]

Oh, good. I was just thinking "Mario Dantas hasn't tried to hijack this thread yet". I'm glad you found time to go ahead and do that.

--Jaylemurph

Well, he went to the trouble of making all those graphics, so you just know he has to post them somewhere.

[Mario Dantas]

http://ipy.gsfc.nasa.gov/

What you should really have discussed here was the actual oddity of Plato´s localization instead of calling other people names for no good reason. IMO, you show poor sportsmanship when it comes to anything Atlantis, period.

In front of the pillars of Heracles there are vestiges of intense tectonic activity, why? Why would three continents meet in front of Gibraltar? Why would there be located the largest gravitational anomaly on the planet?

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Edited November 7, 2013 by Mario Dantas

[Leonardo]

In front of the pillars of Heracles there are vestiges of intense tectonic activity, why? Why would three continents meet in front of Gibraltar? Why would there be located the largest gravitational anomaly on the planet?

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Answer to first question: Because it is a region close to where tectonic plates meet.

Answer to second question: Because they have to meet somewhere. If it was just west of Britain and Ireland you would ask "Why do 3 plates meet just west of Britain and Ireland?" See, the location isn't really important.

Answer to third question: Because of the composition of the mantle under the crust in that region.

None of these questions or answers provide any confirmation, or are supportive, of your ideas.

[Mario Dantas]

Answer to first question: Because it is a region close to where tectonic plates meet.

Answer to second question: Because they have to meet somewhere. If it was just west of Britain and Ireland you would ask "Why do 3 plates meet just west of Britain and Ireland?" See, the location isn't really important.

Answer to third question: Because of the composition of the mantle under the crust in that region.

None of these questions or answers provide any confirmation, or are supportive, of your ideas.

Leonardo,

You forget that Plato explicitly told us that the location of Atlantis was in front of Gibraltar.

I ask does that region have any suspicious geologic features that could corroborate what Plato have stated in relation to Atlantis?

Since you seem very sure of what you are talking about, let me ask you this:

If the geoid anomaly pertains only and exclusively to the composition of the upper mantle below the crust, as you put it, why is the anomaly is in every way the same as the topography of the MAR itself, in that region?

The geoid anomaly in the northern MAR is located around the higher region in the northern MAR area, the Azores.

Furthermore, the geoid maps also detect earthquakes and Plato describes that an earthquake was connected to the demise of Atlantis!

The geoid map could have additional information that hasn't yet been fully understood.

These information do provide confirmation/support for my theory, but as they say: the beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

Regards,

Mario Dantas

[Taun]

I thought the Phoenicians also went down the west coast of Africa, or was that the Carthiginians?? Also didn't the Phoenicians travel up the west coast of Spain? Isn't Cadiz an ancient Phoenician outpost (Almost 100 miles NW of Gibraltar)?

I would also agree that the "Pillars of Hercules" were the strait at Gibraltar.

The Carthaginian's sent Hanno ("the Navigator") and 25,000 people in a fleet of galleys down the western coast of Africa - both to explore and to found new cities...

I believe this expedition is the earliest recorded voyage of discovery... It was about 500 BC or so...

Edited November 7, 2013 by Taun

[Astral Hillbilly]

Oh, good. I was just thinking "Mario Dantas hasn't tried to hijack this thread yet". I'm glad you found time to go ahead and do that.

--Jaylemurph

So, are you saying you disagree with his theory ? Or, is it a personal thing ? Where do you think Atlantis was ? Better yet, what makes you so sure Mr. Dantas is wrong ? It sounds like he has some enemies here, but that doesn't make his theory inferior to anyone else's.

[cormac mac airt]

So, are you saying you disagree with his theory ? Or, is it a personal thing ? Where do you think Atlantis was ? Better yet, what makes you so sure Mr. Dantas is wrong ? It sounds like he has some enemies here, but that doesn't make his theory inferior to anyone else's.

It makes his hypothesis, because it doesn't actually qualify as a scientific theory, inferior to the facts. Both geologically in dealing with plate tectonics as well as chronologically when attempting to force-fit his hypothesis dealing with an alleged movement of Greenland into the timeframe of c.12,000 BP. His idea also goes against the fact that there's no evidence of any culture from that period in time having Bronze Age technology, fleets of ships (triremes) or chariots. All of which completely ignores what Plato actually wrote in Timaeus, which can be found in my signature. The short version of which would be "let's take yesterdays story of fiction and today pretend that it's about our two countries". It's the height of willfull ignorance to search for a place the originator tells you right off the bat is fiction.

cormac

[jaylemurph]

Seriously, do you simply lack the self-control to contain your theories to the threads you start? Why throw this dreck around in completely unrelated threads? Did you not notice the actual, on-topic discussion or do you just not care about it?

--Jaylemurph

[Mario Dantas]

[...] All of which completely ignores what Plato actually wrote in Timaeus, which can be found in my signature. The short version of which would be "let's take yesterdays story of fiction and today pretend that it's about our two countries". It's the height of willfull ignorance to search for a place the originator tells you right off the bat is fiction.

cormac

Cormac,

I completely disagree with you...

You are speaking as if Plato really said something which he did not! On the contrary, Plato always emphasized that the tale was true. I challenge you to explain the reason why Critias would go on to say that he had recognized similarities during Socrates's Republic enunciation, or how he tried to remember of the old tale he heard when he was a boy and how he shared it with the Timaeus and Hermocrates?

It just does not seem a natural/normal way of telling a fictitious tale at all...

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

I have told you briefly, Socrates, what the aged Critias heard from Solon and related to us. And when you were speaking yesterday about your city and citizens, the tale which I have just been repeating to you came into my mind, and I remarked with astonishment how, by some mysterious coincidence, you agreed in almost every particular with the narrative of Solon; but I did not like to speak at the moment. For a long time had elapsed, and I had forgotten too much; I thought that I must first of all run over the narrative in my own mind, and then I would speak. And so I readily assented to your request yesterday, considering that in all such cases the chief difficulty is to find a tale suitable to our purpose, and that with such a tale we should be fairly well provided.

And therefore, as Hermocrates has told you, on my way home yesterday I at once communicated the tale to my companions as I remembered it; and after I left them, during the night by thinking I recovered nearly the whole it. Truly, as is often said, the lessons of our childhood make wonderful impression on our memories; for I am not sure that I could remember all the discourse of yesterday, but I should be much surprised if I forgot any of these things which I have heard very long ago. I listened at the time with childlike interest to the old man's narrative; he was very ready to teach me, and I asked him again and again to repeat his words, so that like an indelible picture they were branded into my mind. As soon as the day broke, I rehearsed them as he spoke them to my companions, that they, as well as myself, might have something to say. And now, Socrates, to make an end my preface, I am ready to tell you the whole tale. I will give you not only the general heads, but the particulars, as they were told to me. The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. Let us divide the subject among us, and all endeavour according to our ability gracefully to execute the task which you have imposed upon us. Consider then, Socrates, if this narrative is suited to the purpose, or whether we should seek for some other instead.

Soc. And what other, Critias, can we find that will be better than this, which is natural and suitable to the festival of the goddess, and has the very great advantage of being a fact and not a fiction? How or where shall we find another if we abandon this? We cannot, and therefore you must tell the tale, and good luck to you; and I in return for my yesterday's discourse will now rest and be a listener.

http://classics.mit....to/timaeus.html

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Edited November 7, 2013 by Mario Dantas

[cormac mac airt]

Cormac,

I completely disagree with you...

You are speaking as if Plato really said something which he did not! On the contrary, Plato always emphasized that the tale was true. I challenge you to explain the reason why Critias would go on to say that he had recognized similarities during Socrates's Republic enunciation, or how he tried to remember of the old tale he heard when he was a boy and how he shared it with the Timaeus and Hermocrates?

It just does not seem a natural/normal way of telling a fictitious tale at all...

http://classics.mit....to/timaeus.html

Regards,

Mario Dantas

I expected as much.

What part of "The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians" of which Plato himself wrote, as it's in Timaeus, do you not understand? Is your English comprehension so bad that when someone tells you at the start that they are taking a fictional story and are going to present it as if it were real, you still believe it's true? Don't answer that question, I already know the answer.

I doubt anyone cares that you don't think it was a natural or normal way of telling a fictitious story. It wasn't your story to tell, it was Plato's. And he was pretty straightforward with everyone by declaring it a fiction that was being presented as if it were true.

...or how he tried to remember of the old tale he heard when he was a boy and how he shared it with the Timaeus and Hermocrates?

In the Timaeus Plato himself supplies the dialogue for everyone, including Critias. That should be obvious. What should also be obvious is that the dialogue provided cannot be shown to actually have come from the real Critias. Or are you going to claim that Plato's lying and somehow you know the truth?

cormac

Edited November 8, 2013 by cormac mac airt

[jaylemurph]

So, are you saying you disagree with his theory ? Or, is it a personal thing ? Where do you think Atlantis was ? Better yet, what makes you so sure Mr. Dantas is wrong ? It sounds like he has some enemies here, but that doesn't make his theory inferior to anyone else's.

An elementary knowledge of geophysics, for one.

--Jaylemurph

[Kahn]

Somehow I knew this was a cover for another "Quest for Atlantis" thread.

[cern]

so where are the Pillars of Hercules?

people are talking about them as though we know for certain exactly where they are.

but is this really the case?

gramps i don't have alot of time and i can't read everything everyone wrote but i'm sure you have learned something.

so the offending passage which we may apparently attribute to solon [died: 558bc] is:

Plat. Tim. 24e

For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Pelagos of Atlas, was insolently advancing to attack the whole of Europe, and Asia to boot. For the pelagos there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles' , there lay an island which was larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the travellers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent

so what did the greeks say about the pillars in 558bc? there was no mention of the pillars of heracles until pindar i believe so i think i would be most interested in what he says.

Pindar, Olympian Ode 3. 12 ff :

For Theron of Acragas Chariot Race 476 BC

I pray that I may be pleasing to the hospitable sons of Tyndareus and to Helen of the beautiful hair while I honor renowned Acragas by raising my song in praise of Theron's victory at Olympia, won by the choicest of horses with untiring feet. With this in view the Muse stood beside me when I found a

shining new manner of fitting the splendid voice of the victory procession to the Dorian sandal.

For the garlands twined around his hair exact from me this sacred debt, to blend harmoniously for the son of Aenesidamus the embroidered song of the lyre and the cry of the flutes with the arrangement of words, and Pisa bids me to raise my voice—Pisa, from which god-fated songs come often to men, for anyone over whose brow the strict Aetolian judge of the Greeks tosses up around his hair the gray-green adornment of olive leaves, fulfilling the ancient behests of Heracles; the olive which once the son of Amphitryon brought from the shady springs of the Danube, to be the most beautiful memorial of the Olympian contests, when he had persuaded the Hyperborean people, the servants of Apollo, with speech. With trustworthy intentions he was entreating them for a shady plant, to be shared by all men and to be a garland of excellence in the grove of Zeus which is hospitable to all. For already the altars had been consecrated to his father, and in mid-month the full evening's eye shone brightly, the Moon on her golden chariot, and he had established the consecrated trial of the great games along with the four years' festival beside the sacred banks of the Alpheus. But Pelops' sacred ground was not flourishing with beautiful trees in the valleys below the hill of Cronus. He saw that this garden, bare of trees, was exposed to the piercing rays of the sun. And so his spirit prompted him to travel to the land of the Danube, where the horse-driving daughter of Leto had received him when he came from the mountain-glens and deep, winding valleys of Arcadia; through the commands of Eurystheus, compulsion from his father urged him on the quest of the doe with the golden horns, which once Taÿgete had inscribed as a sacred dedication to Artemis who sets things right. Pursuing that doe he had also seen that land beyond the cold blasts of Boreas; there he had stood and marvelled at the trees, and sweet desire for them possessed him, to plant them around the boundary-line of the horse-racing ground with its twelve courses. And now in his kindness he comes regularly to this festival of ours, together with the godlike twin sons of deep-waisted Leda. For Heracles, when he ascended to Olympus, assigned to them the ordering of the marvellous contest of men, the contest in excellence and in the driving of swift chariots. And so my spirit somehow urges me to say that glory has come to the Emmenidae and to Theron through the dispensation of the sons of Tyndareus with their fine horses, because that family comes to them with the most hospitable feasting-tables of any mortal men, observing the rites of the blessed gods with pious thoughts. If water is best and gold is the most honored of all possessions, so now Theron reaches the farthest point by his own native excellence; he touches the pillars of Heracles. Beyond that the wise cannot set foot; nor can the unskilled set foot beyond that. I will not pursue it; I would be a fool.

source Tufts

pardon me if i'm wrong but i'm guessing you want your time and interest to lead to something real so i think you should start with dear pindar here who places the pillars up the danube and stop when orthodox science doesn't match mythology.

i have some random ideas but the first question might be "was there a huge freshwater sea up the danube at 10kbc and after?" yes there was. who says so? the romanians, the hungarians, the serbs and the wc at the hague.

"did any one of the thousands of authors who have written about atlantis know there was an ocean river there?" no.

"was there an island one would call gadiera at the mouth of this boundless ocean river [ie. is there a huge prehistoric enclosure on it?]". yes.

"does it have the wide range of specific features it should to make the wide range of mythological texts and imagery of it accurate?" yes.

maybe another question could be "if the vinca from the above region marched into egypt during the middle neolithic would they cause the great techno leap to the final neolithic." ie. were they very advanced wrt to egyptians... can you show that they went to egypt? would a paleolithic group from dolni vestonice marching to egypt in 6000bc appear advanced? might want to check.

"has science always had access to this region." no, western science had never had access to the region.

"is western science finding amazing things there now?" yes.

"does someone official say atlantis is in this ocean river and it is there today?" yes.

"can anyone go there and test it for themselves easily?" yes you can go there now.

like i said... random thoughts.

well you can go on and on and the more you know the better it gets. but i must go. if for some reason you want me to answer a question you may need to pm me. intravacations seem very busy these days but i'm old and slowly.

peace

[Delovely5150]

Aaawww, when I saw the title of this thread I got excited, expecting to see facts and photographs. Then my excitement turned into "what da?" LOL!

[docyabut2]

If the story is true, it would have to be based on a real empire that did exist in history, that may have ruled the seas of Egypt, and Europe to the Tyrrhenia,the Minoan empire or the Tartessian empire.

Plato

because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries,

Surely there would be a record of trades to a place called Atlantis if that were the name.

Edited November 8, 2013 by docyabut2