Davros of Skaro Posted April 22, 2014 #1076 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Oh! Okay, when you guys claim that God does not exist and you claim now that Science does not know it, why are atheists so ready to assert that there is no Creator for the created things? It doesn't sound logical to me. How could created things not have been created? Atheism is nonbelief in God, or Gods.Atheists see no evidence of God.Theists say look in the mirror for proof of God which is circular logic. I cannot say for certain that there is no God, but what Theists present as evidence, I can follow the logical conclusion that their God is self delusion. Man used to think that the planets were Gods, then religion changed that thinking out of monopoly, but science is what proved the false belief of planet Gods. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecowboy342 Posted April 22, 2014 #1077 Share Posted April 22, 2014 All right, I am ready to give you the benefit of the doubt. If the first cause-creator was not necessary, what could have caused the universe to begin? I know you do not know it. I insist with the question because atheists like to project themselves as knowing for sure that God does not exist. To know such a thing I thought they could provide us with an alternative in terms of a probability and not to deny upfront. I don't claim to know God does not exist. I am ignostic meaning that I think to have a meaningful conversation about whether God exists, one must first define God. And if that definition is unfalsifiable the question is meaningless and irrelevant. There may well have been a first cause creator but this would seem to be adding an unnecessary complication to the question of our origins and till it can be shown such a complication is necessary I see no reason to suppose it was so. The one thing I am sure of is that the universe was not created 6,000 years ago in 6 days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted April 22, 2014 #1078 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Since I put my question this time not under religion but Physics, I still haven't got an answer. I agree though that a fairy tale did not create the universe; what happened then, did the universe create itself or was created by something else? The material universe was created by natural processes that we know exist in space. Space was never created unless you are talking about the "space" between things. In that case it was created when things were created. In truth the answer that you are looking for is not in "when" I'm a theist aswell, but God lives in the details not the imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.6.6 Posted April 22, 2014 #1079 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Who created God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecowboy342 Posted April 22, 2014 #1080 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Who created God? Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.6.6 Posted April 22, 2014 #1081 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Man Exactly! An imaginary figure invented to explain all that the current state at the time of philosophy, science and medical could not provide answers for! Its amazing that in this day and age so many are so willing to blindly follow ideas and concepts that were made up thousands of years ago to allow explanation of the unknown and control of the masses! We are a race of story tellers and reason needers! People need to feel that there insignificant existence has some form of purpose or meaning, we need to feel belonging! We need to hope that there is something to look forward too, the belief gives people a reason to continue with their boring mundane lifes, God (in what ever form you believe) is nothing more than an imagery bandaid for an overly needy and emotional race! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted April 22, 2014 #1082 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Exactly! An imaginary figure invented to explain all that the current state at the time of philosophy, science and medical could not provide answers for! Its amazing that in this day and age so many are so willing to blindly follow ideas and concepts that were made up thousands of years ago to allow explanation of the unknown and control of the masses! We are a race of story tellers and reason needers! People need to feel that there insignificant existence has some form of purpose or meaning, we need to feel belonging! We need to hope that there is something to look forward too, the belief gives people a reason to continue with their boring mundane lifes, God (in what ever form you believe) is nothing more than an imagery bandaid for an overly needy and emotional race! It's amazing because you are incorrect about what made god. Even if there is no god man certainly did not invent the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.6.6 Posted April 22, 2014 #1083 Share Posted April 22, 2014 (edited) It's amazing because you are incorrect about what made god. Even if there is no god man certainly did not invent the concept. Man certainty did invent the concept of god or what ever your particular religion defines as a god! Everything about religion was created by mans imagination! And then its twisted and changed to suit each time period! No one religion dates back to antiquity! They are all versions of a previous belief! Changed and alterd to suit what man wanted at that specific point in history Edited April 22, 2014 by 6.6.6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecowboy342 Posted April 22, 2014 #1084 Share Posted April 22, 2014 It's amazing because you are incorrect about what made god. Even if there is no god man certainly did not invent the concept. How can you say man didn't create the concept? Chimp's certainly didn't. In fact to be a concept something has to occur in the mind of man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted April 23, 2014 #1085 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Moderation in all things be they alcohol or religion is probably best Unfortunately both have addictive properties which appeal to the physical and psychological makeup of human beings, so that moderation is harder to achieve than abstinence for many. In principle I agree with you, but it rarely works in practice. and one man's moderation is not enough for another (or too much) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted April 23, 2014 #1086 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Man certainty did invent the concept of god or what ever your particular religion defines as a god! Everything about religion was created by mans imagination! And then its twisted and changed to suit each time period! No one religion dates back to antiquity! They are all versions of a previous belief! Changed and alterd to suit what man wanted at that specific point in history Take a child, and raise him by robots programmed never to refer to, or mention, a religion or the idea of gods or spirits; and the child will evolve its own religious and spiritual beliefs based on its own interaction with the world from birth . So there is no historical connection required nor does a human child need to be taught the concepts of god etc. We just construct them by ourselves and will do so even in isolation from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted April 23, 2014 #1087 Share Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) Exactly! An imaginary figure invented to explain all that the current state at the time of philosophy, science and medical could not provide answers for! Its amazing that in this day and age so many are so willing to blindly follow ideas and concepts that were made up thousands of years ago to allow explanation of the unknown and control of the masses! We are a race of story tellers and reason needers! People need to feel that there insignificant existence has some form of purpose or meaning, we need to feel belonging! We need to hope that there is something to look forward too, the belief gives people a reason to continue with their boring mundane lifes, God (in what ever form you believe) is nothing more than an imagery bandaid for an overly needy and emotional race! The only problem with this view, which is in part correct, is that there exists, also, a very real and physical entity humans call god, which is no more a construct of human minds than any other real/physical thing in our environment. its existence predates human evolution of mind. This is not a product of delusion hallucination or fantasy any more than you or I am. Once you meet this being, what ever you chose to call it, you can never again assume that all concepts of god come from within. Humans construct imaginary concepts of cats (think the musical and poem on which tha tis based) but there also exist, in parallel to those constructs, very real cats. So it is also with god(s) Edited April 23, 2014 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted April 23, 2014 #1088 Share Posted April 23, 2014 People love each other according to the amount of oxytocin in there bodies. Has nothing to do with religion. We have no inborn knowledge that there is more to life than this we have an in born curiosity and need to seek patterns and understand our world. Were we not indoctrinated in religion from earliest childhood it would have died out long ago No. Love has nothing to do with oxytocin That is merely a chemical evolved to hold humans together long enough to provide male support for a young mother and new born child. It is not love. Love is a construct of human self awareness It is an intellectual emotion and construct. It has intellectual, symbolic, and linguistic components. Thus love endures in humans for life, long after the oxytocin has vanished. I have been married to my wife for thirty years. I love her as much now as when I met her and would lay down my life to save her, not because of some chemical within me but due to self aware concepts of love, duty, honour, integrity etc. Love is a choice I make, and one I maintain through the years and circumstances. It is shaped by the awareness and observation of the love my parents had for each other, by the love of past historical figures, and also by the Romantic love embodied in human literature, poetry, songs sagas films paintings etc. My parents were married for sixty years before my father died They loved each other all that time. My wife's parents were married for 70 years My wife's 3 siblings have marriages approaching 150 years in total. My three younger siblings all have enduring marriages of over 30 years, producing a dozen children and half a dozen grandchildren (so far) who all exist as part of a close knit extended family network. That is what love means/is for human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted April 23, 2014 #1089 Share Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) How can you say man didn't create the concept? Chimp's certainly didn't. In fact to be a concept something has to occur in the mind of man If there is no god, the concept was not an invention. Potentially a misinterpretation, but the concept of gods is not what Most people think. They are the result of interactions with something real or an archetype in an altered state of consciousness that can be as real as anything you know. Now if they are simply mental cobstructs, they are not invented. It's apart of our evolutionary make up and there fore not a creation of man but an evolved trait of humanity. Not a creation... An evolution... Big difference. Edited April 23, 2014 by White Crane Feather 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted April 23, 2014 #1090 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Man certainty did invent the concept of god or what ever your particular religion defines as a god! Everything about religion was created by mans imagination! And then its twisted and changed to suit each time period! No one religion dates back to antiquity! They are all versions of a previous belief! Changed and alterd to suit what man wanted at that specific point in history The originate from our shamanic roots which are experiences born of evolutionary psychology... Not conscious inventions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecowboy342 Posted April 23, 2014 #1091 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Unfortunately both have addictive properties which appeal to the physical and psychological makeup of human beings, so that moderation is harder to achieve than abstinence for many. In principle I agree with you, but it rarely works in practice. and one man's moderation is not enough for another (or too much) That's why I swore off religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecowboy342 Posted April 23, 2014 #1092 Share Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) If there is no god, the concept was not an invention. Potentially a misinterpretation, but the concept of gods is not what Most people think. They are the result of interactions with something real or an archetype in an altered state of consciousness that can be as real as anything you know. Now if they are simply mental cobstructs, they are not invented. It's apart of our evolutionary make up and there fore not a creation of man but an evolved trait of humanity. Not a creation... An evolution... Big difference. Still a creation of man, I would say. Before their were men there was no concept of God. Our shamanic roots are a creation of man Edited April 23, 2014 by spacecowboy342 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted April 23, 2014 #1093 Share Posted April 23, 2014 The originate from our shamanic roots which are experiences born of evolutionary psychology... Not conscious inventions. I was hoping you would make this clear because I wasn't sure what you originally meant. Yes this is what modern psychology and neurology tells us is true. That's why I swore off religion. And why I swore off alcohol and any other mind altering substances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecowboy342 Posted April 23, 2014 #1094 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I was hoping you would make this clear because I wasn't sure what you originally meant. Yes this is what modern psychology and neurology tells us is true. And why I swore off alcohol and any other mind altering substances. I did that once. Scariest 15 minutes of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Id3al Experience Posted April 23, 2014 #1095 Share Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) If there is no god, the concept was not an invention. Potentially a misinterpretation, but the concept of gods is not what Most people think. They are the result of interactions with something real or an archetype in an altered state of consciousness that can be as real as anything you know. Now if they are simply mental cobstructs, they are not invented. It's apart of our evolutionary make up and there fore not a creation of man but an evolved trait of humanity. Not a creation... An evolution... Big difference. Isnt that with everything Man. All inventions start with a mental construct, then evolve to action, thus isnt anything and everything man has done just a trait of humanity and not a creation? Edit, multi post Edited April 23, 2014 by The Id3al Experience 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted April 23, 2014 #1096 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Still a creation of man, I would say. Before their were men there was no concept of God. Our shamanic roots are a creation of man Yet evolution is not called creationism? Why? Because it was not created. I think we are playing semantics here. If there is no god and the concept originates with man, then its a result of man but certainly not a creation of mans imagination. Frodo is a creation. Sexual behavior, love, etc etc products of evolutionary psychology. Spiritual entities ( if they don't exist) come from shamanic experiences that from a non spiritual point of view are mental constructs. The problem with the attitude of an inexperienced materialist is that they fail to recognize the tremendous benefits these "entities" offer. Deep in side your mind you have amazing abilities and cognitive functions. There are several threads running right now in the topic. The problem is accessing it. These entities are like sentient programs that can access your inner Genus and bring things to your conscious awareness that you would not otherwise be aware of. Shaman have used this method to guide their people for many thousands of years long before recorded history. Some in the form of guides, angles, gods etc etc. all aspects of the same thing really. Now done people also believe that they are real entities, and they have every reason to. This is important because it is not the result of human power seeking and control like some suggest. It's not a fictional creation. ( certainly some of that happens though) Its a very real entity, only the nature if which can really be debated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecowboy342 Posted April 23, 2014 #1097 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Yet evolution is not called creationism? Why? Because it was not created. I think we are playing semantics here. If there is no god and the concept originates with man, then its a result of man but certainly not a creation of mans imagination. Frodo is a creation. Sexual behavior, love, etc etc products of evolutionary psychology. Spiritual entities ( if they don't exist) come from shamanic experiences that from a non spiritual point of view are mental constructs. The problem with the attitude of an inexperienced materialist is that they fail to recognize the tremendous benefits these "entities" offer. Deep in side your mind you have amazing abilities and cognitive functions. There are several threads running right now in the topic. The problem is accessing it. These entities are like sentient programs that can access your inner Genus and bring things to your conscious awareness that you would not otherwise be aware of. Shaman have used this method to guide their people for many thousands of years long before recorded history. Some in the form of guides, angles, gods etc etc. all aspects of the same thing really. Now done people also believe that they are real entities, and they have every reason to. This is important because it is not the result of human power seeking and control like some suggest. It's not a fictional creation. ( certainly some of that happens though) Its a very real entity, only the nature if which can really be debated. If there is no God then the concept is absolutely a product of man's imagination. A way for primitive man to try to make sense of his world and to try to exert some sense of control over an often hostile environment. The fact that we are hardwired to seek patterns and try to make sense of things is a product of evolution. The fact that gods were invented to do this is man's imagination at work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Id3al Experience Posted April 23, 2014 #1098 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Yet evolution is not called creationism? Why? Because it was not created. I think we are playing semantics here. If there is no god and the concept originates with man, then its a result of man but certainly not a creation of mans imagination. Frodo is a creation. Sexual behavior, love, etc etc products of evolutionary psychology. Spiritual entities ( if they don't exist) come from shamanic experiences that from a non spiritual point of view are mental constructs. The problem with the attitude of an inexperienced materialist is that they fail to recognize the tremendous benefits these "entities" offer. Deep in side your mind you have amazing abilities and cognitive functions. There are several threads running right now in the topic. The problem is accessing it. These entities are like sentient programs that can access your inner Genus and bring things to your conscious awareness that you would not otherwise be aware of. Shaman have used this method to guide their people for many thousands of years long before recorded history. Some in the form of guides, angles, gods etc etc. all aspects of the same thing really. Now done people also believe that they are real entities, and they have every reason to. This is important because it is not the result of human power seeking and control like some suggest. It's not a fictional creation. ( certainly some of that happens though) Its a very real entity, only the nature if which can really be debated. But Frodo is a mental contruct? Someone throught him up. Thoughts that can only come because of our evolutionary psycology. How is God, a mental contruct and be not a concept, but frodo is? I dont understand the difference. Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted April 23, 2014 #1099 Share Posted April 23, 2014 But Frodo is a mental contruct? Someone throught him up. Thoughts that can only come because of our evolutionary psycology. How is God, a mental contruct and be not a concept, but frodo is? I dont understand the difference. Cheers I suppose we are talking about intent. Frodo was intentionally made up. Spiritual entities discovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Id3al Experience Posted April 23, 2014 #1100 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I suppose we are talking about intent. Frodo was intentionally made up. Spiritual entities discovered. Ahh, I see what your saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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