Jack Skellington Posted November 14, 2013 #101 Share Posted November 14, 2013 A circle is still a 2-dimensional (i.e. 'flat') object. The passage you reference does not refer to our planet as a sphere. LoL-- must have been one of those "four-cornered" - two dimensional circles you were referring to then I guess. "The circle of the earth" -- most folks wouldn't be as confused by that as you pretend to be, Leonardo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted November 14, 2013 #102 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Do tell more. If you have to start a Mormon theology thread I would read it. Challenges and stuff will come up, but deal with it gracefully, and information driven. No preaching. And folks like me, who just want to learn will learn. . Do it. I want an ambitious Mormon to start a Mormon theology thread and stick with it without succumbing to emotions. The challenge is on you danielost. Oh. Just to note. I have never met a Mormon that was not ambitious. Except for one. But he was sort if a drunkard. Someone else would be better to start it. Let me think it over. As for the drunk we all have weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted November 14, 2013 #103 Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) Someone else would be better to start it. Let me think it over. As for the drunk we all have weaknesses. I don't thnk it would Daniel. I have Ben posting on these forums For a few years. Resolve is a fleatng virtue. Your niche s here. Trust me. Educate us. Edited November 14, 2013 by White Crane Feather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted November 14, 2013 #104 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I started it. Titled the mormons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted November 14, 2013 Author #105 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Which god are we talking about here? the creator god or the god above the creator god? Or any other god? To save confusion the God of Abraham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted November 14, 2013 #106 Share Posted November 14, 2013 To save confusion the God of Abraham. That would be the creater god. He got his power from the upper god, his/our father. Today we call him christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regeneratia Posted November 15, 2013 #107 Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) I don't know about anyone else but when I speak of god, I am speaking about the god above the creator god. Mainly, because with out him the creator god has no power to create. When I speak of god, I speak of the creator god that has very limited power, kind of like the "Squire of Gothos" kind of god, very childish, very immature and very much one I would rather NOT worship. When I speak of the plemora, there are no words to describe it, "god" being a very limited term for what is the comprehensive all of all. That childish god came from a thought of a thought, a issuance from wisedom that was created without the fleck of plemora that we all have. That is how the creater god was created, without that glorious spark of all that you and I have. Edited November 15, 2013 by regeneratia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regeneratia Posted November 15, 2013 #108 Share Posted November 15, 2013 To save confusion the God of Abraham. Yeah, I never did like that god. For me, that was a god to reject. A nasty being, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Only Posted November 15, 2013 #109 Share Posted November 15, 2013 A nasty being, IMHO. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted November 15, 2013 #110 Share Posted November 15, 2013 LoL-- must have been one of those "four-cornered" - two dimensional circles you were referring to then I guess. "The circle of the earth" -- most folks wouldn't be as confused by that as you pretend to be, Leonardo. I am not 'confused' by an ancient piece of writing declaring a circle, and understanding that circle to be a flat object. I am simply not projecting my modern knowledge of the Earth as a sphere onto it. And I didn't notice "four-corners" being mentioned in the passage you quoted - did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 15, 2013 #111 Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) I know there is something before life. Knowing that fuels my belief of something after death. You correct about truth. But, there is my truth, your truth, and real truth hopefully somewheres in between. Witlh todays tech. Virgins can indeed give birth. If god is no more than a highly advanced human, then he would have the same tech in haveing virgns giving birth that we do. As I have said god is not god because of how advanced he is but because he is our father. Yeah, yeah, yeah...but...the Biblical story of the Virgin birth said basically that Mary was impregnated by a spirit. And we all know that the only way to get pregnant is for a male sperm to interact with a female egg...unless you want to get into the cloning technology argument, which is pointless. The facts are the facts...but voodoo belief systems that are ingrained since birth are hard to overcome...the facts remain the facts...Are you suggesting that God impregnated Mary through invitro fertilization techniques? Besides.. ..the premise of the Virgin birth...i.e. why it happened is severly flawed. The premise is that Jesus was born without sin because he had no 'male' sperm carrying the 'memory' of sin. And so, we are supposed to believe that God carries around in his back pocket a tin of frozen perfect sperms...please...virgins don't have babies, dead people don't come back to life and besides that.... ...the premise of why Jesus came is also flawed...to save a creation from Eternal Fire Damnation, when in the beginning, before God created Man, God knew Man would sin and be Eternally Damned and that he would then impregnate a virgin with perfect sperm and sacrifice him to Himself in order to save the creation that was damned before creation. It's silly. Really. So, the end of all this diatribe about religious belief is that no one knows how the Cosmos came about...but we do know that the ancient humans thought a volcano was the voice of God....go figure it out.... Edited November 15, 2013 by joc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. K. Posted November 15, 2013 #112 Share Posted November 15, 2013 The facts are the facts...but voodoo belief systems that are ingrained since birth are hard to overcome...the facts remain the facts...Are you suggesting that God impregnated Mary through invitro fertilization techniques? Besides.. Within the context of Christianity...God could have created Jesus in the way He created Adam, and simply used Mary as a surrogate mother, with no need for maternal DNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothingman Posted November 15, 2013 #113 Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) People's imagination. I don't believe you. I think it's YOUR imagination that you can imagine something that only exists in other people's imaginations. Anyway your imagination makes no difference at all to the actual answer which only God can answer. Edited November 15, 2013 by nothingman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothingman Posted November 15, 2013 #114 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Are you suggesting that God impregnated Mary through invitro fertilization techniques? Besides.. ..the premise of the Virgin birth...i.e. why it happened is severly flawed. If God chose to use an invitro technique then he could have but I doubt that. How about self-impregnating animals? Do you suppose 'the creator' impregnates them through invitro techniques? If impregnation is possible without a partner in animals what's to say that premise in humans is severely flawed? That logic is severely flawed. How about alternatively just acknowledging that there are some things that you just don't know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Skellington Posted November 15, 2013 #115 Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) I am not 'confused' by an ancient piece of writing declaring a circle, and understanding that circle to be a flat object. I am simply not projecting my modern knowledge of the Earth as a sphere onto it. And I didn't notice "four-corners" being mentioned in the passage you quoted - did you? Leonardo-- Frank suggested that the world at that time thought of the world as having "four actual corners." I pointed out in ancient scripture where it referred to "the circle of the earth" -- no corners. Then you amazed us with your knowledge of shapes by adding that a circle can be two-dimensional--- and you insist (without evidence) that that MUST be how they saw the Earth, as a two-dimensional flat circle, and not a sphere. Since we were discussing something with four corners (hint-- a square) versus a circle, you really didn't add much. Edited November 15, 2013 by Jack Skellington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted November 15, 2013 #116 Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) Leonardo-- Frank suggested that the world at that time thought of the world as having "four actual circles." I pointed out in ancient scripture where it referred to "the circle of the earth" -- no corners. Then you amazed us with your knowledge of shapes by adding that a circle can be two-dimensional--- and you insist (without evidence) that that MUST be how they saw the Earth, as a two-dimensional flat circle, and not a sphere. Since we were discussing something with four corners (hint-- a square) versus a circle, you really didn't add much. You stated "it was science that promoted the world to be flat", then proceeded to quote religious scripture suggesting the Earth was a 'circle'. I pointed out a circle is a flat (i.e. 2-dimensional) object. Do you see the relevance of the point I made now? It has nothing to do with squares vs circles, but your assertion that "science decided the world was flat". Edited November 15, 2013 by Leonardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Skellington Posted November 15, 2013 #117 Share Posted November 15, 2013 The creation story makes more sense if you don't think of it in modern terms but as the authors thought of it. They saw the Earth as having four actual corners, but this would have been before it got that form. Here^^^ I will quote the context for you directly, so you can stop being a dork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothingman Posted November 15, 2013 #118 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Sorry to interject here (and I have not read the thread of this discussion) but when the world was viewed as flat it was because of the inability to expand perspective outward to a distance where a globe could be observed. Thus a conclusion of flatness was made based on what was observable within the narrow visible perspective. The same problem with perspective exists inward as well as outward. In fact what is a circle? A visible representation of a radius to a perimeter across all of the possible points on the perimeter. But for the circle to be visible it must be 3-dimensional if you narrow your perspective inward enough through the means of some sort of microscopic instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted November 15, 2013 #119 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Here^^^ I will quote the context for you directly, so you can stop being a dork. Is the aggression and insults you have reverted to some sort of defense against admitting you made a mistake? Personally, I find simply admitting the mistake a lot less trouble than getting snarky about making it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Skellington Posted November 15, 2013 #120 Share Posted November 15, 2013 LOL. Have you EVER admitted a mistake Leonardo? We were clearly talking about squares versus circles and you interjected something irrelevant. It's as if we were talking about dog versus cats and you jumped in to say that Lions are a kind of cat. Thank you for that, but that just doesn't pertain to the conversation. If you want to discuss where the idea of a flat earth came from, it was not, as Frank suggested 'the authors" of the creation story, or scripture in general, but folks like you-- with an agenda. Forgive the Wikipedia source, but it links to the following-- In Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians, Jeffrey Russell describes the Flat Earth theory as a fable used to impugn pre-modern civilization and creationism.[8][9] James Hannam wrote: The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the earth is flat appears to date from the 17th century as part of the campaign by Protestants against Catholic teaching. But it gained currency in the 19th century, thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896). Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis for their own purposes, but historical research gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had propagated more fantasy than fact in their efforts to prove that science and religion are locked in eternal conflict.[10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullywired Posted November 15, 2013 #121 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Where do you think God came from? If the Universe can't come from nothing and had to be created, where did the creator come from? fullywired 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thyra Posted November 15, 2013 #122 Share Posted November 15, 2013 fullywired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philangeli Posted November 15, 2013 #123 Share Posted November 15, 2013 If there is a true God, then he is eternal. If he is eternal, then he didn't come from anywhere. If God doesn't exist, why are we here? Was it all because of some Cosmic accident? If so, why is there any need to survive and continue the species? We might as well just kill each other and be done with it. Why bother trying to stay alive? What is the point? If you don't believe in God, and yet, you are still loving and caring - why are you? Is it just animal, nurturing instinct? Again, if so, why bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothingman Posted November 15, 2013 #124 Share Posted November 15, 2013 fullywired that is very funny. God as an old man in the clouds is a fancy of the imagination. To address the question Where do you think God came from? If the Universe can't come from nothing and had to be created, where did the creator come from? The creator could be a will without form. Thus the creator did not come from anything of physical substance (form). The Universe clearly has form or we wouldn't be having this discussion and form can not have come from nothing. Thus the form of the Universe came from something supernatural. The question mixes the two different concepts of natural (form) and supernatural (divine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted November 15, 2013 #125 Share Posted November 15, 2013 If there is a true God, then he is eternal. If he is eternal, then he didn't come from anywhere. If God doesn't exist, why are we here? Was it all because of some Cosmic accident? If so, why is there any need to survive and continue the species? We might as well just kill each other and be done with it. Why bother trying to stay alive? What is the point? If you don't believe in God, and yet, you are still loving and caring - why are you? Is it just animal, nurturing instinct? Again, if so, why bother? The nature of godhood can be eternal without the being, being eternal. I have thought that godhood is like any other aspect in nature. A cycle, in which god becomes so large that he devides down to the simplest life form and starts the process over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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