Origin of Writing

[Derek Cunningham]

This I agree with

• The theory must be founded on evidence that can be reviewed by any properly trained individual who can then verify its validity, disprove it with new evidence, or build on it with new evidence.
  

Specifically the part about disproving a theory.

The idea is not to prove it, but to try to create test that can undermine a theory.

So......if an idea can create a working test (a prediction) and the prediction is met the theory survives and goes on to the next stage.

If the result is the test fails the theory takes a hit.....and if the hit is big enough the theory can be disproven

Does that sound reasonable?

So really what you are trying to do with a test is to see at what point if fails and then if two ideas are avaiable to see which of the two is strongest. It does not mean though that either is correct. It is just that one idea has more merit than another.

Edited November 22, 2013 by EnigmaticLines

[Frank Merton]

The ideal is that if the theory makes predictions that subsequently prove true. I am reminded of the discovery of Hittite that, as I understand it, had characteristics not previously seen in other languages but that had been predicted about proto-IndoEuropean.

I sometimes see the scientific enterprise as filling in a crossword puzzle. You have clues (the actual clue, the length of the word and sometimes some of the letters). You make guesses and see if they pan out. Sometimes you have to go back and erase large sections that you thought were strongly confirmed, but this is rare and usually when a few words fit you have high confidence you are on the right track.

[spud the mackem]

The stone age guys marked trees and rocks when out hunting to ensure they could find their way back to their caves.WrIting may have evolved from that source.

[Derek Cunningham]

So....writing is about transmitting information.

But information is not always written down "alphabetically" or with hieroglyphic-like characters......Look at what engineers do with a blackboard? It is not "writing" but it sure is information. The engineers understand it.

The point I'm getting to is....why do we always have to consider writing from a modern viewpoint?

If the lines on ancient stones and bones are astronomical values (converted to an angles) then that is an encoded block of text.

....so

if the idea can be tested......which in this case it can.......then surely it is a theory?

Then.....the next step is to try to disprove the theory. Either by statistics, or some other means.

Or.....to try to strengthen the theory it by making successive predictions, each of which if successful can move a theory forward to a next more difficult test.

Edited November 22, 2013 by EnigmaticLines

[Derek Cunningham]

The ideal is that if the theory makes predictions that subsequently prove true. I am reminded of the discovery of Hittite that, as I understand it, had characteristics not previously seen in other languages but that had been predicted about proto-IndoEuropean.

I sometimes see the scientific enterprise as filling in a crossword puzzle. You have clues (the actual clue, the length of the word and sometimes some of the letters). You make guesses and see if they pan out. Sometimes you have to go back and erase large sections that you thought were strongly confirmed, but this is rare and usually when a few words fit you have high confidence you are on the right track.

I like the way to look at it.....

I wonder how they would do that with a block of straight lines

Edited November 22, 2013 by EnigmaticLines

[kmt_sesh]

So....writing is about transmitting information.

But information is not always written down "alphabetically" or with hieroglyphic-like characters......Look at what engineers do with a blackboard? It is not "writing" but it sure is information. The engineers understand it.

The point I'm getting to is....why do we always have to consider writing from a modern viewpoint?

If the lines on ancient stones and bones are astronomical values (converted to an angles) then that is an encoded block of text.

....so

if the idea can be tested......which in this case it can.......then surely it is a theory?

Then.....the next step is to try to disprove the theory. Either by statistics, or some other means.

Or.....to try to strengthen the theory it by making successive predictions, each of which if successful can move a theory forward to a next more difficult test.

Given this criteria, we can confidently dismiss the idea that the hashmarks are writing. You're suggesting they represent astronomical values, but writing—all forms of writing, ancient and modern—exists to communicate languages. They make languages visible. This is not looking at it from a modern viewpoint but is what the sum total of all known scripts has revealed to us.

What you're suggesting, then, is that the hashmarks are basically ideograms—symbols representing not the sounds of languages but pure thought and metaphor. At least, this is the closest definition I can arrive at if we're discussing linguistics. The problem is, and as I mentioned previously, no known script is ideographic. Ancient or modern, they are all to one degree or another logophonetic. All of them.

For your approach to work, you would have to answer at least these critical questions:

1. Did the night sky 40,000 or more years ago look the same as the night sky today, and do your angles account for this? The obvious answer is, the night sky has changed significantly over the millennia. Therefore, what is your expertise in archaeoastronomy?
   
2. How can you support the premise that Paleolithic people used angles in this manner? Where is the empirical evidence? Hashmarks on bones and stones are considerably insufficient to support this.
   

I am still skeptical, to say the least.

[Derek Cunningham]

For your approach to work, you would have to answer at least these critical questions:

1. Did the night sky 40,000 or more years ago look the same as the night sky today, and do your angles account for this? The obvious answer is, the night sky has changed significantly over the millennia. Therefore, what is your expertise in archaeoastronomy?
   
2. How can you support the premise that Paleolithic people used angles in this manner? Where is the empirical evidence? Hashmarks on bones and stones are considerably insufficient to support this.
   

I am still skeptical, to say the least.

Point 1 is well taken.....the stars do move.

But the lines here are not recording star positions.....they are recording astronomical values.

Specifically the astronomical values being recorded are those to do with the physical measurement of time, and the prediction of eclipses, and a lower percentage connecting to secondary physical parameters typically relating to the size/distance to the moon. These values are fixed and constant.

So....the values are fixed with the primary value being the 13.66/27.32 day sidereal month which is the primary lunar value used to measure time.

The next value that any astronomer would note is knowing the sidereal month automatically tells you the duration of the year, and that there is close to a 1 degree shift in the earth's orbit as it moves around the sun.

After that it is then a matter of time before they note the 6.511 draconic month period between eclipses.

but for accurate prediction of eclipses you need to know the 5.1 degree angle of inclination of the moon's orbit and the 9.3/18.6 year lunar nutation cycle. A good astronomer will also be able to determine the distance to the moon is on average 30 earth diameters.

Beyond that there is one value that is usually present and that is the 11 day difference between the solar and lunar year, and the circa 33 degree eclipse window, which numerically equals the 33/33 cycle for reseting the lunar calendar

And that is the complete list of fixed values......As you can see the values from 1 to 13.66 degrees is quite dense, but after that there is a large gap between 13.66 and 18.6 and an even larger gap between 18.6 and 27.32 degrees, and above that there are very few values...

So here the most important point is that there is huge gaps in the astronomical values listed.......and these large gaps make the theory testable, and here the probability that the astronomical values will match a very large number of ancient artifacts very unlikely.....here a large number means close to 50 samples.

Point 2.....

I am glad to say that you are skeptical. This means at least you consider it to be a possible, even if it does sound at first glance to be a very unlikely theory.

The next step is to see if the theory holds true over multiple samples, which also means (apart from the most obvious meaning) that....

a) ancient sample bearing simple enigmatic straight lines - over an extended time period and geographic area produce entirely consistent results. Here it must be emphasized that the astronomical values chosen were all fixed by a prior theory, and

The secondary prior theory also predicted a certain time frame to use..... and that was to study stones younger than 400,000 years old. That is a very unlikely date to find consistent results.....but surprisingly the Bilzingsleben bone was found to be entirely consistent with theory.

and the third point is

c) When there is a large geoglyph drawn as part of an archaeological site the standard reference point should either be the horizon or a line drawn to due east.....see for example the Atacama Giant, and the causeways located in front of the Great Pyramids and a series of lines found in the Sahara Desert

So the point here is I was not just looking for an angular array....I already had a prior pre-set range of values......and this was a predict or die test.

I also was adding constraints, such as the lines in fixed artwork should be drawn to a set standard value....this being the alignment to due east. This makes the do or die test doubly hard.

Thus.......ONLY if the results matched prediction the theory survived, if the prediction failed the theory would collapse. Probability in this case favours the doubters.

Point 3.....is this a written language.

If the earliest written languages such as early Chinese text, and early cuneiform are found to also align to the above listed astronomical values.....it can be argued that the individual lines creating each larger glyph were a type of additional written text. In other words early cuneiform text perhaps had multiple layers, with not only the visual glyph containing meaning, but also the angle of the lines drawn may have had some ancient meaning...

I would refer to this type of text as a compressional language, as numerous ideas and concepts are contained with just a few lines.....in this way the lines are identical in concept of Chinese/Japanese characters, and these are widely considered to be "modern" languages.

[Kahn]

I don't know if this throws any monkey wrench into the calculations, but there are some variables that you are naming as constants.

"So....the values are fixed with the primary value being the 13.66/27.32 day sidereal month which is the primary lunar value used to measure time" Not true, but close enough. In 30k years the moon has drifted a little over one kilometer further away. The day has also increased by a similar ratio.

"The next value that any astronomer would note is knowing the sidereal month automatically tells you the duration of the year, and that there is close to a 1 degree shift in the earth's orbit as it moves around the sun." I'm confused by this, but I presume you mean that Earth moves approximately one degree per day in it's orbit.

"but for accurate prediction of eclipses you need to know the 5.1 degree angle of inclination of the moon's orbit and the 9.3/18.6 year lunar nutation cycle." Don't forget, while the inclination is fixed relative to the sun, the wobble of the earth's axis means that Gamma Cephei would have been the north star when the Lebombo bone tally sticks were made for example. i.e. while the angle to the elliptic remains constant, the actual path in the sky shifts.

[Derek Cunningham]

Not really...

the difference in distance and time is so small that it is negligible....we are working here to at best to an accuracy of two decimal places. The difference of 1 km in lunar distance would appear at the 6th decimal place.

the lunar angle of tilt is fixed as it is measured relative to the ecliptic which is invariable. The variation in the earth's angle of obliquity does not change the orbital plane of the moon relative to the ecliptic, as the ecliptic is the primary reference plane.

Edited November 24, 2013 by EnigmaticLines

[MrZhou]

Hello, I hope this is the most relevant thread... i'd like to share with you friends some pictures of mysterious stone carvings found recently in Chengdu, China. The carvings appear to have order to them, and although the symbols do not look like ancient Chinese characters, they do appear to represent other worldly phenomena. Some of the symbols look a little like these I found: http://austinstar.hu...d-Rock-Carvings

A single stone slab was found by workers and is now in my possession. My personal belief is that it may be one of many! possibly having religious significance... but i'm at a loss as to its origin. i'll try and attach some images below:

[Whisperer]

The image appears to display a modern work if the markings behind the symbols are saw marks, maybe it was somebody who wanted to make a mystery?

What type of stone is it?

[SHaYap]

^@mumanster

the alignment of the so called 'symbols' are modern in characteristics ... good call

~

[Kahn]

Hello, I hope this is the most relevant thread... i'd like to share with you friends some pictures of mysterious stone carvings found recently in Chengdu, China. The carvings appear to have order to them, and although the symbols do not look like ancient Chinese characters, they do appear to represent other worldly phenomena. Some of the symbols look a little like these I found: http://austinstar.hu...d-Rock-Carvings

A single stone slab was found by workers and is now in my possession. My personal belief is that it may be one of many! possibly having religious significance... but i'm at a loss as to its origin. i'll try and attach some images below:

I'm highly suspicious. The marks look too perfectly etched, the iconography looks modern, and most disturbing, several of the icons are mirrored along the vertical axis.

[Derek Cunningham]

Before trying to analyze this much more information would be needed about the origin of the stone.

Also a better photographs is required. Taken directly over the stone.

[kmt_sesh]

Hello, I hope this is the most relevant thread... i'd like to share with you friends some pictures of mysterious stone carvings found recently in Chengdu, China. The carvings appear to have order to them, and although the symbols do not look like ancient Chinese characters, they do appear to represent other worldly phenomena. Some of the symbols look a little like these I found: http://austinstar.hu...d-Rock-Carvings

A single stone slab was found by workers and is now in my possession. My personal belief is that it may be one of many! possibly having religious significance... but i'm at a loss as to its origin. i'll try and attach some images below

:

*Snip*

I would agree with other posters, if not in stronger terms: this is definitely not real. I would not spend any time on it.

[SpiritWriter]

Well dont laugh at me, but one little fun fact I know is that the first two letters of the Hebrew alphabet are "alef" and "bet" and of Greek it is "alpha" and "beta".

But thats just pronounciation they have their own text of course

[kmt_sesh]

Well dont laugh at me, but one little fun fact I know is that the first two letters of the Hebrew alphabet are "alef" and "bet" and of Greek it is "alpha" and "beta".

But thats just pronounciation they have their own text of course

There's a reason for that. Hebrew was a direct adaptation of the Phoenician script, and Greek was a direct adaptation of...the Phoenician script. The main difference is, the Greeks added vowels. The Etruscans adopted their script from the Greeks, and the Romans from the Etruscans. In other words, our Western letters "A" and "B" (and others) go all the way back to the Phoenicians.