the mormons.

[Frank Merton]

Jews dont believe in the rebirth concept of washing away sins that baptism is symbolic of.

They have days of atonement for that

Well, yes, and I don't believe baptism achieves anything either. Still I see nothing in it to get upset about.

[danielost]

Oh, here's the link. It is frowned upon by the church.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-03-05/mormons-proxy-baptism-holocaust-jews/53372816/1

Edit: Another question, if I may, is the proper term Temple or Church?

You should have read it.

The letter, which was to be read over pulpits and posted on bulletin boards in every Mormon congregation on Sunday, reminds members that their "pre-eminent obligation" is to their own ancestors, and any name submitted for proxy rituals "should be related to the submitter."

Seems members were submitting names not related to them and the church promised the jews we wouldn't do so for their family members.

[danielost]

Oh, here's the link. It is frowned upon by the church.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-03-05/mormons-proxy-baptism-holocaust-jews/53372816/1

Edit: Another question, if I may, is the proper term Temple or Church?

Members meet at ward buildings on Sunday this is church. The other building for the ordanices for the dead is the temple. Not, everyone can go there. But all are welcome at church. So we use both words.

[danielost]

Jews dont believe in the rebirth concept of washing away sins that baptism is symbolic of.

They have days of atonement for that

And, the jews think the dead have to accept the baptism.

[danielost]

I never understood why the Jews objected to this seemingly friendly and harmless ritual.

When I was a baby I was baptized a Catholic, but my family were Communists (at that time that meant definitely atheist). I don't really care -- in fact its kinda nice (although my parents had a fit).

How were you baptized without your parents permission and why. I think I would be upset about that one.

[Likely Guy]

How were you baptized without your parents permission and why. I think I would be upset about that one.

Then again, Anabaptists believe that parents have no say in the matter. It's up to the mature conscious decision of the individual.

[danielost]

Then again, Anabaptists believe that parents have no say in the matter. It's up to the mature conscious decision of the individual.

A baby is niether mature nor able to conscent. Mormons baptise at eight or older with parental conscent up to eighteen.

[Frank Merton]

How were you baptized without your parents permission and why. I think I would be upset about that one.

I was born in a Catholic hospital and had a gran mal, so they thought I might die and the nurses baptized me. This was wartime so my father couldn't be reached and my mom was dying.

One thing one should not do is get upset over things people do trying to be of help even thought it may be misguided.

[Frank Merton]

A baby is niether mature nor able to conscent. Mormons baptise at eight or older with parental conscent up to eighteen.

If I remember the story Jesus waited until he was thirty before getting baptized. Why don't Christians follow his model?

[danielost]

Mormons believe that eight years old is enough time to learn most good and evil from each other. I don't know why christ waited. Maybe because john his cousin had only started his mission at that time. Remember the jews would be baptised before going to the temple. But this baptism was more like the catholic confusion. Ie, only good until the next time.

[+Link of Hyrule]

If I remember the story Jesus waited until he was thirty before getting baptized. Why don't Christians follow his model?

Baptism is a symbolism of rebirth, when we convert to Christ we are figuratively "born again", and full immersion in water shows we are spiritually reborn. There's no specific age where this happens, it depends when one gives their life to Jesus.

Infant baptism, however, is not biblical. It was brought in to address what happens to babies if they die without accepting Jesus, then as time went on it became more tradition than anything.

[Jack Skellington]

Baptism is a symbolism of rebirth, when we convert to Christ we are figuratively "born again", and full immersion in water shows we are spiritually reborn. There's no specific age where this happens, it depends when one gives their life to Jesus.

Infant baptism, however, is not biblical. It was brought in to address what happens to babies if they die without accepting Jesus, then as time went on it became more tradition than anything.

That makes perfect sense if you accept the idea that the man Jesus was converted to Christ at his baptism.

Do you?

[+Link of Hyrule]

That makes perfect sense if you accept the idea that the man Jesus was converted to Christ at his baptism.

Do you?

"Christ" is a title, meaning "messiah". Jesus was the Christ from the moment he was born. His baptism, though, wasn't a symbol of rebirth, but a symbol of the start of his ministry. Our baptism is a symbol of rebirth. As our physical birth ended by bursting from the waters of the womb, so our spiritual birth is shown by the waters of the Holy Spirit, symbolised by baptism.

Believing Jesus' baptism as a symbol of his messiah-hood is unnecessary to that, and makes sense to me as is.

[danielost]

He was bptised to fulfill all the law. He was christ at birth. He had to be baptized because the law of moses said so. Remember when he was twelve he visited the temple. His parents found him, in his words, being about his fathers work.

[Jack Skellington]

So then his baptism was either completely unnecessary and some kind of a false example for others to follow (while not needed for himself) -- or you've accepted a teaching that might be rather lacking.

You don't think it was particularly eventful when the Holy Spirit descended upon him (like a dove) at his baptism--- and immediately afterwards he begins his ministry? If he was the Christ since birth, what was the Christ doing for the prior 30 years?

[danielost]

Growing up, waiting for the right time. He may have been waiting for his brothers to be old enough to take care of his mother. These are just guesses of course.

I have to say goodnight, after midnight here.

[Frank Merton]

The one thing that gets omitted is that baptism was widely used in Greek mystery cults as a ritual for admission to the group, but is unheard of in the OT (there were some priestly ablutions before rituals, something completely different). Just another sign that in reality Christianity was Greek, not Jewish.

The idea that baptism was for remission of sins kinda contradicts the sacrifice on the Cross, and the fact that Jesus (we presume sinless) didn't need it if that is what it was for.

[+Link of Hyrule]

So then his baptism was either completely unnecessary and some kind of a false example for others to follow (while not needed for himself) -- or you've accepted a teaching that might be rather lacking.

You don't think it was particularly eventful when the Holy Spirit descended upon him (like a dove) at his baptism--- and immediately afterwards he begins his ministry? If he was the Christ since birth, what was the Christ doing for the prior 30 years?

He was the Christ since birth, he began his ministry in the customary manner (age 30 or thereabouts) - people in that society would not have respected a younger teacher.

Jesus' baptism wasn't an example for us to model our life on, it's just something Jesus needed to do to begin his ministry. We baptise and get baptised because of Jesus' command to do so in Matthew 28:18-20!

[Whatsinausername]

Great thread Daniel. Even if i may disagree or question some of your beliefs, it deserves respect non the less and I hope to ask my questions in a respectful manor.

"10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory."

Here you state that the New Jerusalem will be in America. The book of Mormon supports this. Does the bible support this?

[+Link of Hyrule]

The one thing that gets omitted is that baptism was widely used in Greek mystery cults as a ritual for admission to the group, but is unheard of in the OT (there were some priestly ablutions before rituals, something completely different). Just another sign that in reality Christianity was Greek, not Jewish.

The idea that baptism was for remission of sins kinda contradicts the sacrifice on the Cross, and the fact that Jesus (we presume sinless) didn't need it if that is what it was for.

Baptism isn't for remission of sins. It's Jesus' death and resurrection alone that forgives. Baptism is the outward expression of our inward rebirth.

[Frank Merton]

Baptism isn't for remission of sins. It's Jesus' death and resurrection alone that forgives. Baptism is the outward expression of our inward rebirth.

Kinda got it memorized?

[+Link of Hyrule]

Kinda got it memorized?

I.m aperson who claims to be a committed Bible-believing Christian. I wouldn't be exactly honest if i didn't have at least the core tenants of my faith memorised

[Frank Merton]

Your response was meaningless jargon or slogans and did not address the point made in the least. It is frustrating to deal with ideologues because they can't think beyond their catch phrases.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Your response was meaningless jargon or slogans and did not address the point made in the least. It is frustrating to deal with ideologues because they can't think beyond their catch phrases.

It was a slogan (though one I coined myself [at least I don't recall reading it or hearing it from others]) but hardly meaningless and it did address your post (at least the second half of your post about the purpose of baptism - I chose not to argue the point on Greek/Hellenist origins). You stated that we believe baptism is for the remission of sins. Isimply said that is not what the Bible teaches, nor what we believe. Ican't speak for those who do believe baptism is for the remission of sins. Ithen said that baptism isour way of expressing our spiritual rebirth.

That is all.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[Whatsinausername]

Your response was meaningless jargon or slogans and did not address the point made in the least. It is frustrating to deal with ideologues because they can't think beyond their catch phrases.

How is it meaningless jargon if a person makes a public declaration of their faith?