Bosnian Pyramids & Pre-Ice Age Civilizations

[Hod]

I promise I am not a troll, even though this is my first post. I have been a silent lurker on this forum for awhile and saw this on another forum I frequent. I then came to this site to see if it was up here, so I could see some educated discussion. Since I didn't see it, I thought I would post it, since you guys are quite good at getting to the bottom of things.

(Horrible Title by the way. Sounds like someting on the Daily Sun)

Houston Antropologist Reveals Irrefutable Proof that Recorded History is Wrong

The article is about the Bosnian Pyramid's and the dating that has been done on them. They are claiming that the dates put the pyramid as being 29,000 years old and that it is irrefutable proof of advance pre-ice age civilizations.

Was interested in hearing what you guys think about the "facts" in the aritcle and about the possibilities of advance pre-ice civilizations in general.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Hod

[stereologist]

The hill which is claimed to be a pyramid only looks a little like a pyramid when viewed from 1 direction, the one in the photos shown by the group that claims it is a pyramid. The hill itself is considered by all but a very small group to be a natural feature. The article you linked to attempts to confirm some legitimacy on the Bosnian hill as a real archaeological site by mentioning other sites being investigated by real researchers.

Here is an article which offers a different perspective on the issue.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/The-Mystery-of-Bosnias-Ancient-Pyramids.html

On page 2 of the article you'll read how far out his claims are.

More information debunking this claim is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_pyramid

In this link you'll see much from the other 2 links,but also more of the nutty claims about these supposed pyramids including tunnels connecting them which have not been discovered, energy fields shown in doctored photos, and names listed on the roster of the project that did not go there or were aware that their names were being used.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4140

[Essan]

The article is about the Bosnian Pyramid's and the dating that has been done on them. They are claiming that the dates put the pyramid as being 29,000 years old and that it is irrefutable proof of advance pre-ice age civilizations.

Leaving aside the simple fact that the so-called Bosnian pyramids are natural hills, the current Ice Age began about 3 million years ago, and the last Glacial started ~100,000 years ago.

29,000 years just takes up back to the Last Glacial Maximum (one of the coldest periods, with the greatest advance in ice sheets, during the last Glacial) - perhaps the least likely time in the past 120,000 years for any civilisation to develop in the mountains of the Balkans - which would have been barren, snow-covered, cold, and really not a very nice place to live at the time.

[Van Gorp]

When for convenience focussing on the question man-made or not, I like this sceptic one:

"When I first read about the pyramids I thought it was a very funny joke," says Amar Karapus, a curator at the National Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo. "I just couldn't believe that anyone in the world could believe this."

Of course, when pyramids are found all over the world it would be outrageous to think for some in Europe.

Which Peruvian is gonna believe that joke :-)

I think the story at least deserves light from both sides:

http://www.davidovits.info/34/the-pyramids-in-bosnia-europe-perhaps-in-roman-concrete

Who to believe?

Because that's what nonexperts on the subject like us (say me) are to do, or is here anyone who studied the samples/studies himself more thoroughly?

[Hod]

Thanks for the links.

Osmanagic does seem to be putting a lot of false information out there and doing the sort of things one would expect from a scarlatan and not a real scientist. It does seem to be another case of agenda pushing non-science. Too bad this area is filled with so much of it. Each person like this, makes it harder for any legitmate scientist who has a real find to stand on firm ground, without people like Osmanagic getting brought up to debunk what might be a real breakthrough.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Hod

[Irna]

I think the story at least deserves light from both sides:

http://www.davidovit...-roman-concrete

Who to believe?

Because that's what nonexperts on the subject like us (say me) are to do, or is here anyone who studied the samples/studies himself more thoroughly?

About Davidovits' analysis of a sample of "concrete" given to him by Osmanagic:

- I notice that Davidovits never published a proper report or analysis of this sample; he only gave a "first impression", and a few comments about his examination under the electron microscope.

- he says himself that he did not perform any datation, but that this kind of concrete was made during the Middle Ages and by the Romans and Egyptians; he says "I do not have any data that may suggest anything older".

- we have only Osmanagic's word about the provenance of the sample, its depth and so on; Davidovits has seen only one sample, taken without proper study of the context, that was given to him in Edimburgh.

- this single sample is said to come from the Vratnica "tumulus", not from one of the "pyramids". Davidovits has updated his page recently, and claims that: "The geopolymer concrete analyzed is a kind of Roman concrete, which in no way corresponds to the materials that constitute the casing of the pyramids and look like pudding stone. Consequently, the information published on the Bosnian Pyramids websites are inaccurate."

So that, while it is possible that some construction on Vratnica used this Roman concrete (Davidovits supposes it could be some kind of buried cistern or water tank), Davidovits' analysis can in no possible way be used to claim that the conglomerate slabs covering the "pyramids" are made of concrete.

You can read more about the various so-called analyses of the natural conglomerate covering the "pyramids" in this article: http://irna.lautre.n...crete-tale.html

Edited November 23, 2013 by Irna

[Sir Smoke aLot]

This still has to be proven, either true or false ( the existance of pyramids in Visoko, BiH ).

So far i really love to listen dr. Semir Osmanagic, not only regarding this subject as he has done alot of work around the world and seems as a person who is good in his work. But greater then just physical existance of pyramids in Visoko is the fact that maybe, just maybe this can reveal some long lost knowledge of past civilizations.

I highly believe that after 'planet changing global dissasters' there would be no evidence that technologicaly advanced civilization existed and projects like this one surely can provide us with information about those long lost treasures, alto i am more convinced that we should look for such clues under oceans. Anyways, it will be interesting to follow this in future.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Thanks for the links.

Osmanagic does seem to be putting a lot of false information out there and doing the sort of things one would expect from a scarlatan and not a real scientist. It does seem to be another case of agenda pushing non-science. Too bad this area is filled with so much of it. Each person like this, makes it harder for any legitmate scientist who has a real find to stand on firm ground, without people like Osmanagic getting brought up to debunk what might be a real breakthrough.

Interesting

After i have seen show on National Geographic, in which Osmanagic's pyramid theory is disapproved i had alot of doubts. Then another show on History channel show support for his project. After i have seen that show on history channel i am sure that without checking all the facts its hard to say that he is write or wrong.

[Irna]

he has done alot of work around the world and seems as a person who is good in his work

Are you sure we're talking about the same person? M. Osmanagic has never done any work in archaeology...

[stereologist]

When for convenience focussing on the question man-made or not, I like this sceptic one:

"When I first read about the pyramids I thought it was a very funny joke," says Amar Karapus, a curator at the National Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo. "I just couldn't believe that anyone in the world could believe this."

Of course, when pyramids are found all over the world it would be outrageous to think for some in Europe.

Which Peruvian is gonna believe that joke :-)

I think the story at least deserves light from both sides:

http://www.davidovit...-roman-concrete

Who to believe?

Because that's what nonexperts on the subject like us (say me) are to do, or is here anyone who studied the samples/studies himself more thoroughly?

One of the links I provided talked about pyramids being found in Europe.

The consensus is that the conglomerate found in the hills being called pyramids is the same conglomerate found in all of the hills in that area. The geology of that area has been well studied. Davidovits is also the scientist with another odd pyramid notion. He claims that the pyramids at Giza are made from concrete blocks, not natural stone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Davidovits

There is a discussion of Davidvits here at UM

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=134193&st=330

[stereologist]

The Bosnian pyramids are just hills. That is clear. The fact that he proclaims things such as weird energy fields and the Mayans came from the Pleiades and in 2012 humans would move to a higher vibrational level and that Admiral Byrd went to Antarctica to have a shoot out with Hitler and other high ranking Nazis makes Osmanagic seem rather like a nut job.

[Helen of Annoy]

The hill which is claimed to be a pyramid only looks a little like a pyramid when viewed from 1 direction, the one in the photos shown by the group that claims it is a pyramid. The hill itself is considered by all but a very small group to be a natural feature. The article you linked to attempts to confirm some legitimacy on the Bosnian hill as a real archaeological site by mentioning other sites being investigated by real researchers.

Here is an article which offers a different perspective on the issue.

http://www.smithsoni...t-Pyramids.html

On page 2 of the article you'll read how far out his claims are.

More information debunking this claim is here:

http://en.wikipedia....Bosnian_pyramid

In this link you'll see much from the other 2 links,but also more of the nutty claims about these supposed pyramids including tunnels connecting them which have not been discovered, energy fields shown in doctored photos, and names listed on the roster of the project that did not go there or were aware that their names were being used.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4140

Tunnels are there, it’s only debatable how old they are. The whole area was mined (in the sense of digging for ore) since... that’s debatable too. At least from middle ages, but probably sooner.

It’s unwise to write off Visoko just because Semir is a little too enthusiastic about energy fields.

I’m not saying these are pyramids, but these are the pyramids

Kidding.

These hills are a little too pyramidal compared to surrounding, I do admit it’s more probably geological curiosity than human made structure, but still, let’s not pretend Visochica is not interestingly shaped.

The area also has strange acoustic, back in the 1990s people remember the sound of explosions was different there, like it was echoing in spaces under the ground. Again, could be natural caves, mines... or the halls inside of pyramids.

There’s one little thing I’d like to ask the participants in this thread.

If you never heard of, for example, this:

http://en.wikipedia....uÄedol_culture

pretty please, don’t scoff at us who think there’s realistic chance of stumbling upon more interesting archaeology findings in Balkans. You have no idea how annoying that term is. Anyway...

Doesn’t have to be a pyramid, but Visoko certainly has a lot of history to offer.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Helen of Annoy

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Are you sure we're talking about the same person? M. Osmanagic has never done any work in archaeology...

u maybe rite about it, i read his work about ancient places and some phenomena and its not really archaeology

[jaylemurph]

It’s unwise to write off Visoko just because Semir is a little too enthusiastic about energy fields.

So it's unwise to identify someone as a fringe adherent when they ardently support fringe ideas?

--Jaylemurph

[Helen of Annoy]

So it's unwise to identify someone as a fringe adherent when they ardently support fringe ideas?

--Jaylemurph

Visoko is a place, not a person. Try again.

[Van Gorp]

About Davidovits' analysis of a sample of "concrete" given to him by Osmanagic:

- I notice that Davidovits never published a proper report or analysis of this sample; he only gave a "first impression", and a few comments about his examination under the electron microscope.

- he says himself that he did not perform any datation, but that this kind of concrete was made during the Middle Ages and by the Romans and Egyptians; he says "I do not have any data that may suggest anything older".

- we have only Osmanagic's word about the provenance of the sample, its depth and so on; Davidovits has seen only one sample, taken without proper study of the context, that was given to him in Edimburgh.

- this single sample is said to come from the Vratnica "tumulus", not from one of the "pyramids". Davidovits has updated his page recently, and claims that: "The geopolymer concrete analyzed is a kind of Roman concrete, which in no way corresponds to the materials that constitute the casing of the pyramids and look like pudding stone. Consequently, the information published on the Bosnian Pyramids websites are inaccurate."

So that, while it is possible that some construction on Vratnica used this Roman concrete (Davidovits supposes it could be some kind of buried cistern or water tank), Davidovits' analysis can in no possible way be used to claim that the conglomerate slabs covering the "pyramids" are made of concrete.

You can read more about the various so-called analyses of the natural conglomerate covering the "pyramids" in this article: http://irna.lautre.n...crete-tale.html

Yes, interesting points.

You have been there? I saw on your site some Dutch/Belgian documentary crew took a look there what it was about.

So, that analysis (i don't know how thorough that was) is actually about a part from the tumulus base/well from which we know it was man made.

Some visuals.

[media=]

[/media]

Remains strange to me that after 8 years the story is still going on (see thread subject on this site from 2005).

What is he actually telling: that the base of the pyramid is of the same material?

Why can't we just prove the pyramids are natural: let us do that, a second officially backed excavation team running parallel with his and showing their natural understanding against his man-made :-)

[Harry_Dresden]

I have yet to see any artefacts or structures convincing me that this "pyramid" is anything other than wishful thinking..

[stereologist]

Tunnels are there, it’s only debatable how old they are. The whole area was mined (in the sense of digging for ore) since... that’s debatable too. At least from middle ages, but probably sooner.

It’s unwise to write off Visoko just because Semir is a little too enthusiastic about energy fields.

I’m not saying these are pyramids, but these are the pyramids

Kidding.

These hills are a little too pyramidal compared to surrounding, I do admit it’s more probably geological curiosity than human made structure, but still, let’s not pretend Visochica is not interestingly shaped.

The area also has strange acoustic, back in the 1990s people remember the sound of explosions was different there, like it was echoing in spaces under the ground. Again, could be natural caves, mines... or the halls inside of pyramids.

There’s one little thing I’d like to ask the participants in this thread.

If you never heard of, for example, this:

http://en.wikipedia....uÄedol_culture

pretty please, don’t scoff at us who think there’s realistic chance of stumbling upon more interesting archaeology findings in Balkans. You have no idea how annoying that term is. Anyway...

Doesn’t have to be a pyramid, but Visoko certainly has a lot of history to offer.

The tunnel that is being shown by the group in Bosbia is not near the so-called pyramids. There are interesting archaeological finds there. The problem is that real researchers and scientists want the digging by Semir stopped because he is destroying things in his path.

[stereologist]

The hills Semir is digging up have the same geology as all of the surrounding area. They are the same, i.e. natural, not man made.

[Van Gorp]

The tunnel that is being shown by the group in Bosbia is not near the so-called pyramids. There are interesting archaeological finds there. The problem is that real researchers and scientists want the digging by Semir stopped because he is destroying things in his path.

Agree, much interesting stuff to see or dig for.

Point remains it started with the same man.

Where were those real researchers before man's discoveries? Where are they now.

They can do juist the same at this moment.

[Van Gorp]

The hills Semir is digging up have the same geology as all of the surrounding area. They are the same, i.e. natural, not man made.

Some parts or terrasses unearthed by the man are not natural.

[Irna]

Yes, interesting points.

You have been there? I saw on your site some Dutch/Belgian documentary crew took a look there what it was about.

You're probably talking of this documentary film:

("The biggest hoax in history"); I've no link whatsoever with them.

So, that analysis (i don't know how thorough that was) is actually about a part from the tumulus base/well from which we know it was man made.

No, we don't "know" that it is man made. This "tumulus" is just a hill, a round one, with no flat face (that's why Osmanagic calls it "tumulus" rather than "pyramid"!). The geology of this tumulus is exactly the same as the geology of Pljesevica (the "pyramid of the moon"): a pile of sedimentary layers (sandstone and marl) "sculpted" by nature, that is by the watercourses and the weathering. Davidovits seems to think that a water tank was made, maybe in the Middle Ages or in the Roman times, inside the hill; that's a possibility. However we have absolutely no information about the place where the sample was taken.

Why can't we just prove the pyramids are natural: let us do that, a second officially backed excavation team running parallel with his and showing their natural understanding against his man-made :-)

How do you "prove" that something doesn't exist? Every professional geologist or archaeologist who has been there says that the hills are hills, the sandstone is sandstone and the conglomerate is conglomerate. Osmanagic claims that the conglomerate is an artificial concrete: it's up to him to prove it, and that he has never done.

[Irna]

Some parts or terrasses unearthed by the man are not natural.

Can you give us some examples? every "terrasse" I have seen on their website is obviously natural (sandstone slabs, with nice natural ripple-marks). The only "artificial" part is the fact that the diggers are creating pseudo-walls in their excavations:

The dotted line shows the original slope before the excavations.

[Helen of Annoy]

The tunnel that is being shown by the group in Bosbia is not near the so-called pyramids. There are interesting archaeological finds there. The problem is that real researchers and scientists want the digging by Semir stopped because he is destroying things in his path.

Bosnia. As in Bosnia and Herzegovina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

What things is he destroying, if there’s nothing unusual in Visoko?

Bosnia has no money to spend on archaeology at the moment. The attempts of real scientists were hampered politically, just like there’s hefty amount of politics in extremely loud cries against unreal science around Visoko.

That place was always something during every historic period and is loaded with folk legends. Now, I know the real science is above folklore, but common sense says the area rich with the unexplained must be in some way special.

Folk tales tell of strange lights, sounds, unusual outcomes of battles (Turkish invaders running away from Visochica in fear of the hill itself)... all originated long before Semir.

Visochica wasn’t invented by Semir, he only promoted it.

Now, the tunnel. I have no idea what tunnel was shown in what video, when I say there are tunnels in the very Visochica that’s precisely what I meant to say: there are tunnels in the very Visochica hill.

Nothing extraordinary, people used to dig and/or expand natural caves or crevices in any hill or mountain, what is extraordinary is the acoustic, suggesting larger empty spaces in the narrow Visoko area.

[stereologist]

Agree, much interesting stuff to see or dig for.

Point remains it started with the same man.

Where were those real researchers before man's discoveries? Where are they now.

They can do juist the same at this moment.

There is plenty to excavate. It needs to be done properly. The digs at the pyramid are done with the intent of claiming that this natural hill is a pyramid. When objects are int he way they are not being properly excavated. Real researchers wait and are patient. If there is too much to do they don't accelerate and just dig in a helter skelter fashion. Real researchers would like this poorly done digging stopped to prevent the permanent losses that are happening. Unfortunately, for political reasons, Osmanagic has been given the permits and not real researchers.