Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

[Alter2Ego]

Freetoroam was pointing out that you claimed Pagan religions supported burning of their own children, and this is offensive to her because she is a pagan. She also very articulately gave you scriptures concerning gods condemnation of certain burning sacrifices listed in the bible. So although she may have not answered your questions or participated the way you wanted she still has a valid point that you should consider.

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

Sorry. I am afraid I cannot consider any of Free to Roam's "valid points" that are irrelevant to the topic of this thread. I specifically requested in my opening post that scriptures from the Judeo-Christian Bible be presented as proof that literal hellfire torment is a Bible teaching. In fact, the title of this thread clearly states what this debate is about.

I am not interested in Free to Roam's paganism or her personal opinions. Even after I asked her repeatedly to provide scriptures from the Bible that support the hellfire torment dogma, Free to Roam refused. In fact, she responded as follows in one of her posts:

POST 5

WEBLINK: http://www.unexplain...6

Quoted scriptures mean absolutely nothing to me.

I was referring to the part about Pagans, I certainly will not be looking for anything in the bible.

I have no problems with discussing others beliefs, but you should provide links to a specific part of a belief, because what you have stated there does not portray what Paganism is about and the way you have put is as if it is fact.

I will do what every Tombi, Dicra and Hamza does when they get offended...say something. If its good enough for them to play that card, then its good enough for me!<p>%2

In other words, it is okay for Free to Roam to thumb her nose at the Judeo-Christian Bible that I hold dear, but it is not okay for me to inform her that I am not interested in her line of argument during which she made it clear that she could care less about the Bible--get this--within a thread that is specifically about the Bible.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Alter2Ego

[Jack Skellington]

Surprisingly perhaps, there seems to be some agreement here that "hell" is not a place really, rather it is a condition or a concept that describes a separation from God. Christians speak about the dangers of an eternal separation for those that have no relationship with the Creator, through his Son. On the flip side, they point to the idea of eternal life, for those that do...

But what exactly is "eternal life?" Birth, Life and Death are a natural (Life) cycle so eternal life might simply mean that "life goes on" as that "natural cycle" continues. "Reincarnation" is a loaded word, and means many different things to many different people, but it's actually a biblical concept... call it rebirth, or being born again. Since we physically die, it should be obvious that "hell" is not a physical place of physical suffering, but something that is a spiritual condition that Jesus compared to a garbage dump of souls.

[Alter2Ego]

Freetoroam was pointing out that you claimed Pagan religions supported burning of their own children, and this is offensive to her because she is a pagan. She also very articulately gave you scriptures concerning gods condemnation of certain burning sacrifices listed in the bible. So although she may have not answered your questions or participated the way you wanted she still has a valid point that you should consider.

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

It is a historical fact that child sacrifice was practiced among pagan religions. Merely stating a historical fact as a means of explaining why Jehovah rejected the ancient Israelites and their Baal worship is not an attack on paganism per se. I am attacking hellfire torment in this thread.

Baal and Molech Worship

"And they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech" (Jeremiah 32:35).

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons as offering to Baal" (Jeremiah 19:5).

Here the Bible implies what modern archaeologists and anthropologists have recently discovered: that Molech and Baal represent the same pagan god. The wife of Baal is Asherah and the wife of Molech is Ashteroth. Asherah and Ashteroth represent the same fertility goddess. This demon was known to the Greeks as Aphrodite; to the Egyptians as Isis; and to the Phoenicians as Tanet.

The ancient city of Carthage was the capital of the Phoenician empire. Their civilization was advanced culturally and highly educated. But recent archaeological expeditions have revealed its most notable feature - the high incidence of child sacrifice. Archaeological relics have been uncovered, such as the altars on which children were sacrificed and stone markers, which marked the burial place of the remains. Stone carvings on the markers depict children who were sacrificed. Clay jars were used to hold the remains. Entire burial grounds full of these slaughtered children have been uncovered.

http://www.revisioni...g/massacre.html

When you click the above weblink, scroll down to find the heading entitled: "Baal and Molech Worship"

Without the ability to explain why God condemned Baal worship (a pagan religion) which burned children to death as part of its false worship, it would be next to impossible for me to use the principle that Jehovah would not himself torment people in eternal flames, while condemning the ancient Israelites for doing a similar thing.

Again, I am attacking the hellfire torment dogma rather than attacking paganism per se.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Alter2Ego

[Jack Skellington]

I don't think anyone is arguing the point Alter2Ego....

Did you have a point beyond baiting a hook?

[SpiritWriter]

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

Sorry. I am afraid I cannot consider any of Free to Roam's "valid points" that are irrelevant to the topic of this thread. I specifically requested in my opening post that scriptures from the Judeo-Christian Bible be presented as proof that literal hellfire torment is a Bible teaching. In fact, the title of this thread clearly states what this debate is about.

I am not interested in Free to Roam's paganism or her personal opinions. Even after I asked her repeatedly to provide scriptures from the Bible that support the hellfire torment dogma, Free to Roam refused. In fact, she responded as follows in one of her posts:

POST 5

WEBLINK: http://www.unexplain...6

In other words, it is okay for Free to Roam to thumb her nose at the Judeo-Christian Bible that I hold dear, but it is not okay for me to inform her that I am not interested in her line of argument during which she made it clear that she could care less about the Bible--get this--within a thread that is specifically about the Bible.

She had another post that gave bible scriptures specific to child sacrifice. I say she has a valid point because use of the term "pagan" is a generalization. She had every right to say what she said and it's cool you hold the bible dear and all but I also think its godly to understand how certain wording can come off as bigotted. There is nothing wrong with coming into attention that you have offended a person by making a generalized statement, it happens all the time. I correct people that make blanketed statements about christians too.

Peace and blessings friend. Thanks for making this thread. I also agree God doesnt want to burn and torture people.

[Beany]

Ah, blessed be the peace-makers. While I'm not Christian, I can't imagine a benevolent god would want to torture and burn people. As far as I know, only humans have actually done it. That behavior was justified by claiming it was the will of God. As for Hell being an actual place, it's my opinion that it's a metaphor, like many others found in sacred texts. There are a lot of people, however, who don't understand metaphors. Reminds of Piaget's theory of cognitive development, particularly the 4th, stage, which is the highest & most sophisticated. This was copied from the website e.how:

The fourth stage of Piaget's model, the formal operational stage, is characterized by logical thinking and the ability to understand and process abstract information. Someone in the formal operational stage of Piaget's model would be able to think about a hypothetical situation or think about and make plans for the future. A person in the formal operational stage can also understand abstract concepts such as freedom or justice. He can consider other points of view and see issues from multiple perspectives. The fourth stage is the ultimate and final stage in Piaget's model of cognitive development.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/info_8421874_piagets-fourth-stage-cognitive-development.html#ixzz2m5G0GUDy

[Alter2Ego]

She had another post that gave bible scriptures specific to child sacrifice. I say she has a valid point because use of the term "pagan" is a generalization. She had every right to say what she said and it's cool you hold the bible dear and all but I also think its godly to understand how certain wording can come off as bigotted. There is nothing wrong with coming into attention that you have offended a person by making a generalized statement, it happens all the time. I correct people that make blanketed statements about christians too.

Peace and blessings friend. Thanks for making this thread. I also agree God doesnt want to burn and torture people.

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

Likewise, I have every right to refer to Baal worship as pagan worship, because that is exactly what it is.

FYI: "Pagan worship" simply refers to worship that is not given to the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible. It is not an attack on paganism, it is simply a statement of fact.

DEFINITION OF "PAGAN":

noun

• a person who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew; heathen: formerly, sometimes applied specif. to a non-Christian by Christians
  
• a person who has no religion
  
• a person who worships nature or the earth, specif., one who practices a form of worship in imitation of any of various religions that historically preceded Christianity
  

http://www.yourdictionary.com/pagan

[Alter2Ego]

She had another post that gave bible scriptures specific to child sacrifice. I say she has a valid point because use of the term "pagan" is a generalization. She had every right to say what she said and it's cool you hold the bible dear and all but I also think its godly to understand how certain wording can come off as bigotted. There is nothing wrong with coming into attention that you have offended a person by making a generalized statement, it happens all the time. I correct people that make blanketed statements about christians too.

Peace and blessings friend. Thanks for making this thread. I also agree God doesnt want to burn and torture people.

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

It would come off as bigoted if I had said all pagans burn their children to death. I specifically identified the pagans as worshippers of the false Baal gods. Furthermore, if people are thin skinned and do not want to be offended, they should not join debate forums where generalized statements are frequently made.

Thank you for the greeting, by the way. It is appreciated.

[Jack Skellington]

So the body can be destroyed by death, but what of the soul? What of the Spirit within us?

There are different aspects to what we generically call "us." Not mutually exclusive parts, but deeply interconnected, integrated parts. Yet distinct.

Some of these parts are temporary--- like our flesh. It begins and ends. It lasts only for a time then it is discarded.

Our soul is more like a seed. It comes from life, and though it ends, it returns to life anew. It has little or no conscious memory of who or what it was before, it simply begins anew as the life within.

Our spirit endures. If you can imagine the car you drive and think of this vehicle as "what gets you about," or a better analogy might be to think of something like a horse that has a life of it's own--- It carries you, but is wholly directed by you (to the extent that it will cooperate and let you guide it). This is a picture of what our body and soul (our physical being and consciousness) are to our spirits. The spirit neither begins, nor ends with us. It is everlasting to the extent that it is permitted to endure, ending only if and when it is cut off from the Source of Life.

In terms of this thread--- what is alive, and what is dead? When we are physically alive, we walk with body and soul intact and are directed by the spirit within us. If we keep in mind that the physical body is the least of our parts, and no more than a covering for who we really are-- we get this idea of the walking dead, and some people talk about dying to self, dying to the flesh, and so forth. This is the first death and it is physical.

When we die, it is the soul that "returns to God" and it is the soul that stands to account for the sum of one's life. It is the soul that is measured and weighed on just scales. And this measuring and weighing is what some people call "judgment." Only from judgment, comes the concept of hell into play.

What of the spirit? The spirits are also held to account and as servants of God they are the ones determined to be either "good and faithful" or "worthless and cut off." This "cutting off" is the second death and it is spiritual. Hell then, is the discarding of these cuttings determined to be without worth and this is where the image Jesus gives us of a constant burning of refuse. Hell, death, destruction, cutting off.... all directly connected. And as an opposite to this scenario is a return to life. The concept of being born again.

This is where it gets interesting.

[SpiritWriter]

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

It would come off as bigoted if I had said all pagans burn their children to death. I specifically identified the pagans as worshippers of the false Baal gods. Furthermore, if people are thin skinned and do not want to be offended, they should not join debate forums where generalized statements are frequently made.

Thank you for the greeting, by the way. It is appreciated.

your welcome,

and also,

we could try not to make generalized statements....

I don't think freetoroam is thin skinned, I think she wanted to make her point and I don't blame her, as you can tell, by me making my point too.

[SpiritWriter]

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

Likewise, I have every right to refer to Baal worship as pagan worship, because that is exactly what it is.

FYI: "Pagan worship" simply refers to worship that is not given to the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible. It is not an attack on paganism, it is simply a statement of fact.

DEFINITION OF "PAGAN":

http://www.yourdictionary.com/pagan

baal worship would have been more specific, pagan is very very broad....., even more specific were the examples freetoroam gave on page one

you must at least consider her point, really

I know you want to get on with your subject, so I will just say it one more time, you may want to be careful in the future making general statements about any group, including pagans, because one, what your saying doesn't apply to all or even most pagans (hardly any actually), and two what your saying IS offensive to members of this website...

shouldn't we be considerate of that?

[Gummug]

Just my two cents' worth...this is not something I am putting forth as being "unshakable truth, hewn in stone", but rather as a possibility to contemplate. What if the fire Jesus refers to is a fire of shame? Wouldn't an intense shame feel like a burning?

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (KJV)

[SpiritWriter]

just making a point friend. I can accept that when you posted it you weren't thinking about it like that, but that's why it was mentioned, so that you would become aware.

[Frank Merton]

Just my two cents' worth...this is not something I am putting forth as being "unshakable truth, hewn in stone", but rather as a possibility to contemplate. What if the fire Jesus refers to is a fire of shame? Wouldn't an intense shame feel like a burning?

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (KJV)

That maybe sounds gentler but I don't think it really would be.

I should know better than to post on a thread that has to do with Hell. I lose my temper at people who have such self-righteous sadistic beliefs and can't give them the respect I'm suppose to allow all beliefs.

[SpiritWriter]

What do people think about near death experiences or outer body experiences/visions where people describe visitations to hell?

[Frank Merton]

Shame is an inappropriate response to things anyway, so here is one of my personal Hells.

I'm sitting in the sonic room waiting for my turn when the nurse comes in and throws open the curtains around the elderly woman who was before me, not even noticing my presence (I think to nurses sometimes patients are just furniture). She is sitting there with nothing covering her breasts. I of course at once left the room. The medical people acted like nothing had happened, but I have suffered guilt for it from then on, even though I had nothing to do with it. This poor woman and her humiliation.

[Frank Merton]

What do people think about near death experiences or outer body experiences/visions where people describe visitations to hell?

I've heard about this, but find it hard to imagine someone actually thinking they are going to end up there.

[SpiritWriter]

I know the op is looking for bible scriptures, and my post on the cross references of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is about all the bible research I will be doing right about now but I will give my personal thoughts of what is possible and probable:

hell is real and exists for each of us, all of us have endured some sort of hell, be it physical, mental, spiritual, we may be in hell, we may even stay there for a while in spirit once we leave this plane, this hell existence may look like several different types of things, may have different layers, but in the end I think we are delivered from it, we can be delivered from it while living, now in this flesh and graduate on to a higher existence where hell is only accessible for the purposes of helping others out, or we can be delivered from it later. For God time is very different, what seems like a day to him can be eternity for us, just as this life seems long (some times). I think hell would be just as unbearable as the most unbearable thing we know to exist here, and those who reap hell onto others with their conscious minds are subject to receive punishment, as well dump coals on their own heads, as the saying goes

in the end God is a deliverer, but it is him who gives life so that whom he delivers will confess and know that he is god

I don't mean this religiously as much as it may sound religious, I mean that justice and mercy both are exercised by the hand of god

I will leave you with another scripture for your consideration. It does not deal with hellfire, but it does deal with those who are dead and beyond all hope of salvation:

Ezekiel 37: 1-14

Ezekiel 37:1-14

King James Version (KJV)

37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

² And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

³ And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

⁴ Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

⁵ Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

⁶ And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

⁷ So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

⁸ And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

⁹ Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

¹⁰ So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

¹¹ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

¹² Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

¹³ And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

¹⁴ And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

[+Link of Hyrule]

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

It would come off as bigoted if I had said all pagans burn their children to death. I specifically identified the pagans as worshippers of the false Baal gods. Furthermore, if people are thin skinned and do not want to be offended, they should not join debate forums where generalized statements are frequently made.

Thank you for the greeting, by the way. It is appreciated.

With respect, what you said was:

" The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)"

You did not clarify until later posts that you were referring to specific branches of paganism, you simply said "pagan religions", and then took the time to actually INCLUDE ALL NON-CHRISTIAN beliefs. You then quoted Jeremiah 7:31 as evidence that "pagan people" (non-followers if the Judeo-Christian God) sacrificed children.

At the very least you're guilty of poor sentence structuring. If you'd specifically identified Molech worship, you wouldn't be in this predicament. Instead you simply referenced pagan worship and then defined pagan beliefs as anything other then Judeo-Christian, and then said that this was the origin of human sacrifice. Can you blame other pagans who are reading this to be anything but deeply offended by your comment? The fact that you didn't mean to generalize (assuming you didn't) its beside the point. Maybe if you apologise for the poor wording of your OP, at the very least it may assuage the emotions of those who think you were generalising pagans.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[born2run]

Not to waste anyones time but in reply to the question, I think it certainly might find its roots in the Bible.With modifications made by early "church fathers", as far as what went in and what was to be omitted. But so much of the early works were flawed with errors in spelling, language differences, transaltions errors, decisions made by people in power on a mere whim, if a part was liked or not, kept in or tossed away.Better yet, hide it, destroy it, deny it ever existed. See, it was so easy back then to have a "designer Bible", providing the pope was in agreement with your particular design of the "words of God".

Edited November 30, 2013 by born2run

[Beany]

Gotta love the net! Here's what Billy Graham says about hell: BILLY GRAHAM: “I think that hell essentially is separation from God forever. And that is the worst hell that I can think of. But I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched”. All these quotes are from the wayoflife.org.

From the same website, quoting a representative of the Church of England: Hell is described as the final ‘choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolutely that the only end is nonbeing’”.

Then there's this belief espoused by Carlton Pearson, a Pentecostal minister who once ran a mega-church and lost everything, friends, colleagues, congregation, when he began preaching doctrine that didn't include a belief in hell. He said God told him there was no hell, which was in opposition to not only his faith, but other fundamentalist sects:

"Then, Pearson had what he characterizes as an epiphany and he began preaching something new: God, he told anyone who would listen, had already forgiven everyone Christians, Jews, Muslims, Mormon, Hindus, Buddhists — for their sins. No one — not even Adolf Hitler or the devil himself needed to worry about eternal damnation." http://blogs.reuters.com/blog/archives/6678

http://blogs.reuters.com/blog/archives/6678

Once again our UM members and their discussion have compelled me to acquire a little more knowledge, so thanks to all. FYI, NPR & Ira Glass did a story about Carlton Pearson that's still in their archives. It's really a fascinating story.

[Alter2Ego]

your welcome,

and also,

we could try not to make generalized statements....

I don't think freetoroam is thin skinned, I think she wanted to make her point and I don't blame her, as you can tell, by me making my point too.

baal worship would have been more specific, pagan is very very broad....., even more specific were the examples freetoroam gave on page one

you must at least consider her point, really

I know you want to get on with your subject, so I will just say it one more time, you may want to be careful in the future making general statements about any group, including pagans, because one, what your saying doesn't apply to all or even most pagans (hardly any actually), and two what your saying IS offensive to members of this website...

shouldn't we be considerate of that?

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

I frankly do not care who gets offended over generalized statements. If people cannot cope with generalized statements, they should stay out of internet debate forums.

If you write me again on this matter, I will not respond.

[thyra]

I agree that people shouldnt get offended by generalized statements, there is always a good way to correct what is misunderstood or is missing or not explained enough.

it is even a good exercise to not get offended by personal statements, either

Being personally harsh to a comparatively newcomer, saying she was 'preaching' with her post is not very kind either. Nobody can hurt paganism or christianity, only people can get hurt and I dont think original poster had any intend to hurt anyone personally to begin with.

Edited November 30, 2013 by thyra

[Beany]

I do care about who I offend, especially since it's usually never intended. for me it means that I haven't expressed myself well enough or clearly enough, and have perhaps been more exclusive than inclusive. And it challenges me to improve my language skills and put more thought into it. Let me be clear here, I am speaking only for myself. And with such a diversity of beliefs expressed here, it's sometimes difficult to navigate through it all without offending someone.

[freetoroam]

Thin skinned, me? Love it!

We can not generalize about people as a whole, it would be deemed as racist to generalize and say that all black people are muggers, or all muslims are terrorists, so to say that it is historical fact that pagans murdered their children is exactly the same thing. Or that they are all worshippers of false baal gods. I pointed out the child murderer, all i asked was do not compare others to that barbaric african peice of slime.

We respect mother nature, not child killers or false gods.

Carry on, made my point.

Edited December 1, 2013 by freetoroam