Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

[+joc]

I frankly do not care who gets offended over generalized statements. If people cannot cope with generalized statements, they should stay out of internet debate forums.

Even generalized statements can offend people. And you don't care if they are offended. That's all fine and dandy. But it could just as easily be said; If people do not care whether or not their generalized statements offend other people, they should stay out of internet debate forums where the membership is diverse, ethnically, morally, racially and ever other...ly.

Edited December 1, 2013 by joc

[Frank Merton]

I just don't see the idea of a God who punishes his creations (us) forever, no matter how "mild" the punishment is, as appropriate for offenses committed in a short human lifespan.

[Frank Merton]

Even generalized statements can offend people. And you don't care if they are offended. That's all fine and dandy. But it could just as easily be said; If people do not care whether or not their generalized statements offend other people, they should stay out of internet debate forums where the membership is diverse, ethnically, morally, racially and ever other...ly.

I don't like it when I offend someone, especially as we must remember we really don't know the people who post and they may have far more fragile personalities than we can imagine. Still, when someone posts something I know is not true, or posts disparaging or insulting remarks, what is one to do? Often I ignore the post and there are a lot of people posting that I almost never read, but sometimes . . ..

[+Link of Hyrule]

ALTER2EGO -to- SPIRIT WRITER:

I frankly do not care who gets offended over generalized statements. If people cannot cope with generalized statements, they should stay out of internet debate forums.

If you write me again on this matter, I will not respond.

So you posted a generalisation, knowing it was a generalisation, knowing that your statement only referred to a specific subset of people but encompassing all people under the generalised name. Do you suppose this comes under the Site Rules concerning Accuracy?

2d. Accuracy: Do not post material that is knowingly or intentionally false, inaccurate or misleading.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

[Jack Skellington]

I know the op is looking for bible scriptures, and my post on the cross references of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is about all the bible research I will be doing right about now but I will give my personal thoughts of what is possible and probable:

hell is real and exists for each of us, all of us have endured some sort of hell, be it physical, mental, spiritual, we may be in hell, we may even stay there for a while in spirit once we leave this plane, this hell existence may look like several different types of things, may have different layers, but in the end I think we are delivered from it, we can be delivered from it while living, now in this flesh and graduate on to a higher existence where hell is only accessible for the purposes of helping others out, or we can be delivered from it later. For God time is very different, what seems like a day to him can be eternity for us, just as this life seems long (some times). I think hell would be just as unbearable as the most unbearable thing we know to exist here, and those who reap hell onto others with their conscious minds are subject to receive punishment, as well dump coals on their own heads, as the saying goes

in the end God is a deliverer, but it is him who gives life so that whom he delivers will confess and know that he is god

I don't mean this religiously as much as it may sound religious, I mean that justice and mercy both are exercised by the hand of god

I will leave you with another scripture for your consideration. It does not deal with hellfire, but it does deal with those who are dead and beyond all hope of salvation:

Ezekiel 37: 1-14

Ezekiel 37:1-14

King James Version (KJV)

37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

² And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

³ And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

⁴ Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

⁵ Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

⁶ And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

⁷ So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

⁸ And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

⁹ Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

¹⁰ So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

¹¹ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

¹² Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

¹³ And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

¹⁴ And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

Yes. That's it exactly.

The dying place. Valley of Bones. The Valley of the Shadow of Death. Hell.

And though you die, you will rise again. Some will rise to judgment and life, some to judgment and destruction, but all rise. Use whatever metaphor you want to- Gehenna, Hades, Hell-- the concept is the same, it is however one might perceive the idea of being consumed.

Heaven is within, and hell is without.

[Frank Merton]

Now its interesting; I read this as entirely a symbolic vision of the Nation of Israel as an entity being reborn right before his eyes. Verse eleven says as much.

[Jack Skellington]

So is it symbolic?

Or is it about the Nation of Israel?

If you read on to the end of Ezekiel, you will see that it moves toward a measuring.... symbolic? I just finished a series on Kaballah. If there is one thing they connect, it is the idea of symbols that mean one thing, as well as something else.

[Frank Merton]

It's symbolic of the nation of Israel.

[Jack Skellington]

Not the nation. The "house."

[Frank Merton]

Not the nation. The "house."

And the difference would be???

[Jack Skellington]

Let me ask you.

What is the temple of God?

A "house" of worship...

Israel is one who wrestles with God. So this temple that is measured?

YOU.

[Frank Merton]

A temple is a special building used most of the time for religious rituals. So Israel is a sort-of symbolic building where religion takes place, and "wrestling" requires sweat and work, so the religion is not easy.

I'm a Buddhist and we tend to not be quite so obscure, but this sort of thing is not hard.

[thyra]

Or that they are all worshippers of false baal gods. I pointed out the child murderer, all i asked was do not compare others to that barbaric african peice of slime.

Carry on, made my point.

After all that struggle you have given against generalized statements on your belief system, you just made some bad sounding generalized statements about somebody else's gods.

In and of itself, Mother nature kills children. This cant be an insult because it is a fact. I dont think we know quite much about their details of their worhips either because even in Quran there is reference to child killing where Abraham is invited to kill his son and when he was ready to do it without a question he was stopped by an angel. Even this might sound barbaric to someone because a father is ready to kill his own child but it is a respected belief to another and very well explained in their own world views.

Edited December 1, 2013 by thyra

[Beany]

And the difference would be???

I think originally the difference is that "nation" referred to one northern tribe of people and "house" referred to a Southern group. I only know this because I googled it.

[freetoroam]

After all that struggle you have given against generalized statements on your belief system, you just made some bad sounding generalized statements about somebody else's gods.

No I did not, I said:

all i asked was do not compare others to that barbaric african peice of slime.

you even quoted it yourself........................he was NOT A GOD, he was human and he was a child murderer.

Edited December 1, 2013 by freetoroam

[thyra]

Anyway whatever happened happened and it seems she removed her profile picture. probably not anymore keenly interested in our sharing here. lets hope i am mistaken though because being here and sharing can be real sweet sometimes.

[Ogbin]

Can't blame her.. Christianity is slammed on this site all day long. Soon as someone has something to say about a pagan the whole world comes to a stop and cries out about it.

Edit: There is alot of Hypocrisy floating around this site.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Ogbin

[SpiritWriter]

Can't blame her.. Christianity is slammed on this site all day long. Soon as someone has something to say about a pagan the whole world comes to a stop and cries out about it.

Edit: There is alot of Hypocrisy floating around this site.

Respect should be given and received by all. Being members and contributers of this site is both a learning experience and a place to share. Educating isnt the same as crying or putting an end to the world. Yes there is hypocricy here but I dont think thats why she left. I think its an environment she isnt used to and made her think about things that were uncomfortable for her to deal with. I also hope she endures and comes back.

[+joc]

there actually used to be wars over these issues on this forum...

That's why the forum topics are seperated...

...I just love redundancy.

[Sundew]

In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus deals with the subject of hell.

Hell, or Sheol as I understand it was/is a place where the dead both good and evil resided, but the two were separated by some gulf neither could cross. At Christ's resurrection he enter the part of Sheol that held the righteous (all those who had died prior to the resurrection) and took them with him to Heaven. Such is reflected in the Apostle's Creed "[Christ] descended into hell, the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into Heaven." That part of Sheol that held the righteous has remained empty ever since because after the resurrection the Bible says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," that is, for His followers. The other side of Sheol containing the rest of humanity is a holding area until the final "Great White Throne Judgement" (Revelation 20:11-15). At that point those not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

[Beany]

Let me ask you.

What is the temple of God?

A "house" of worship...

Israel is one who wrestles with God. So this temple that is measured?

YOU.

I find the language in this interesting. So if house & temple refer to Northern & Southern people, the words are not interchangeable in the archaic religious sense, but in this age they pretty much are. Then I think of the term "House of Saud", which is also the title of a book, and in this case "house" doesn't refer to any physical building, but to an household or family. Maybe what we're doing is using words from old texts and using them out of context, thinking that the same words or terms being used back then had the same application and meaning that they do now, which may or may not be accurate.

The link below provides information about the word "temple" in biblical terms, which original was a metaphor for being the "locus of the presence of God", according to an article in the link below. Now I now why there are biblical scholars, people familiar with the culture, context, history, and ideas.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/temple/

Edited December 1, 2013 by Beany

[SpiritWriter]

Came across one today, don't know if its been mentioned already

Revelation 21

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[SpiritWriter]

More:

*

Psalm 11:6

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)6 Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

*

Revelation 20

James Version (KJ21)

And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.3 And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years should be fulfilled; and after that he must be loosed a little season.4 And I saw thrones and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, nor had received his mark upon their foreheads or on their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 and shall go out to deceive the nations to the four quarters of the earth — Gog and Magog — to gather them together for battle, thenumber of whom is as the sand of the sea.9 And they went out over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.11 And I saw a great white throne and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to their works.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Frank Merton]

Can't blame her.. Christianity is slammed on this site all day long. Soon as someone has something to say about a pagan the whole world comes to a stop and cries out about it.

Edit: There is alot of Hypocrisy floating around this site.

Attacking horrid teachings like God torturing people for eternity is not hypocrisy. It is moral outrage. There are many Christians who agree with that.

The way Christians use the word "pagan" is also a problem. They say it with a derogatory slant and an "I am better than they are" approach. To me a pagan is someone who believes in the Norse or Greek or Roman or Assyrian or some similar set of deities, but I would not go so far as to say even Hindus are "pagan." English is indeed subtle and complicated.

[SpiritWriter]

Surprisingly perhaps, there seems to be some agreement here that "hell" is not a place really, rather it is a condition or a concept that describes a separation from God. Christians speak about the dangers of an eternal separation for those that have no relationship with the Creator, through his Son. On the flip side, they point to the idea of eternal life, for those that do...

But what exactly is "eternal life?" Birth, Life and Death are a natural (Life) cycle so eternal life might simply mean that "life goes on" as that "natural cycle" continues. "Reincarnation" is a loaded word, and means many different things to many different people, but it's actually a biblical concept... call it rebirth, or being born again. Since we physically die, it should be obvious that "hell" is not a physical place of physical suffering, but something that is a spiritual condition that Jesus compared to a garbage dump of souls.

I think that a spiritual condition can manifest into a place and I am one who thinks that hell can be very real.. I have considered the testimonies of those who have reported near death experiences, outer body experiences and visions given to man where indeed they have experienced hell. I think that in truth we cannot know exactly what to expect but I think we are given a chance in this life for improvement as well as the reconnection to god if we have somehow lost it. I do not think that we as people have the ability to judge and deem who it is that will go to hell and that the determining process is totally out of our league of understanding. But I do reiterate that I do not think its permenant, I think it is used as a teaching and that all will be delivered so that they will know there is a god.