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markdohle

Israel

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third_eye

You don't say anything to rebut my points, just get personal. You have no credibility. I've seen your like before.

Really Frank ? Is that what you read or just what you want to answer ?

I'm sure you have Frank ... you can never escape the 'likes' of me ... now why is that ? Is it us or perhaps it could be you ?

~

~

Edited by third_eye

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Space Commander Travis

Yet the simple minded PC types here in America and in GB WILLINGLY bow and scrape to this ideology that wants them either dead or in subservience. It reminds me of MARS ATTACKS. If it weren't so frustrating it would be funny.

But what is the alternative? To wipe it out before it can destroy us all? it's hardly going to be realistic to expect that, is it, so perhaps the only thing one can do would be to try to stop seeing it as the great Enemy that's just waiting to destroy us all and, perhaps, recognise that a great deal of the antagonism from Them towards Us is a result of poking of Western, i.e. predominantly American, noses into regions where such things don't go down too well. I mean, the point keeps being made that Islam has never changed and commands to wipe out the infidel are still on the statute books, but Islam has existed alongside Christianity and Judaism for a great long time, and it's only really been in the last few decades that it's become the great menace that threatens us all. Might it not be related in some way that that's the time that the West has become more and more heavily involved, thru military and political intervention and economic exploitation, in these areas? i.e. that Islam's commands to destroy the infidel are really just being used as a handy smokescreen for the real reasons, which are almost entirely political?

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Space Commander Travis

The GI boys have standing orders not to engage the enemy until fired upon.

unless you're driving a Drone, of course. Or perhaps they really do only launch missiles in retaliation for the brave operators, in their bunker in Colorado, coming under fire? Maybe we've misunderstood them all these years and they really do launch Cruise missiles from hundreds of miles away purely in self defense. :innocent:

Edited by Colonel Rhuairidh
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Babe Ruth

The GI boys have standing orders not to engage the enemy until fired upon.

I wonder if Lt. Calley was under those same orders?

Or Sgt Bale last year?

Or too many other such incidents?

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joc

unless you're driving a Drone, of course. Or perhaps they really do only launch missiles in retaliation for the brave operators, in their bunker in Colorado, coming under fire? Maybe we've misunderstood them all these years and they really do launch Cruise missiles from hundreds of miles away purely in self defense. :innocent:

This much I do know...we don't blow up innocent market places in the Name of God or Jesus or even Obama...that is the whole point. Muslims already have a line drawn in the sand...That line is: Do you support murder in the name of Allah? It is a Yes or No question. If the answer is anything other than NO, then the answer is automatically Yes. That's the bottom line here. The Palestinians have the same choice.

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joc

But what is the alternative? To wipe it out before it can destroy us all? it's hardly going to be realistic to expect that, is it, so perhaps the only thing one can do would be to try to stop seeing it as the great Enemy that's just waiting to destroy us all and, perhaps, recognise that a great deal of the antagonism from Them towards Us is a result of poking of Western, i.e. predominantly American, noses into regions where such things don't go down too well. I mean, the point keeps being made that Islam has never changed and commands to wipe out the infidel are still on the statute books, but Islam has existed alongside Christianity and Judaism for a great long time, and it's only really been in the last few decades that it's become the great menace that threatens us all. Might it not be related in some way that that's the time that the West has become more and more heavily involved, thru military and political intervention and economic exploitation, in these areas? i.e. that Islam's commands to destroy the infidel are really just being used as a handy smokescreen for the real reasons, which are almost entirely political?

Two things happened around the same time to change everything. Israel and Oil.

Solomon said Split the child in half...give each mother half of the child. What is likely to happen is that in an effort to destroy Israel and 'their' false God, the Muslims will wind up annhialating themselves as well. Maybe there will only be peace when the entire Middle East is known as The Sea of Glass.

Edited by joc
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Space Commander Travis

This much I do know...we don't blow up innocent market places in the Name of God or Jesus or even Obama...that is the whole point.

What is it in the name of then? Self defense? Even if these Strikes do in fact take out any of the unlimited supply of Terrorist Masterminds, does it ever make the slightest difference? Terrorism on any scale smaller than 9/11 doesn't seem to need Masterminds plotting things from somewhere in the Middle East; it just needs someone who can knock together a home made bomb in their kitchen using information they could get from anywhere.

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and then

What is it in the name of then? Self defense? Even if these Strikes do in fact take out any of the unlimited supply of Terrorist Masterminds, does it ever make the slightest difference? Terrorism on any scale smaller than 9/11 doesn't seem to need Masterminds plotting things from somewhere in the Middle East; it just needs someone who can knock together a home made bomb in their kitchen using information they could get from anywhere.

So doing nothing is what's called for? If we unilaterally stop they will also? Are you really that naive`? You seem to reject that there is a threat here at all and from that premise you fault the US for everything. At best it's a "you brought it on yourself". I'd be wary of being so smug about it all herr Colonel. If you appease them the best you can hope for is that they kill you last. Drone....

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joc

What is it in the name of then? Self defense? Even if these Strikes do in fact take out any of the unlimited supply of Terrorist Masterminds, does it ever make the slightest difference? Terrorism on any scale smaller than 9/11 doesn't seem to need Masterminds plotting things from somewhere in the Middle East; it just needs someone who can knock together a home made bomb in their kitchen using information they could get from anywhere.

Oh...I get it now. You think that I am in favor of Drone Bomb attacks...no, no, no. I am not a Drone the hell out of them kind of guy. The only way to bomb like that is to have a Kill Zone...and kill anyone who enters into it..no questions asked.

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Space Commander Travis

So doing nothing is what's called for? If we unilaterally stop they will also? Are you really that naive`? You seem to reject that there is a threat here at all and from that premise you fault the US for everything. At best it's a "you brought it on yourself". I'd be wary of being so smug about it all herr Colonel. If you appease them the best you can hope for is that they kill you last. Drone....

My whole point is, is it doing anything? Is it just "doing something because we have to be seen to be doing something"? Does it make any difference at all to the ability of some fruitcake in an apartment in Boston, say, being able to put together a home made Device from information he's got over the inter Net? Does "taking out" "terrorist Masterminds" actually make any difference at all to the kind of terrorist activity that's by far the most common? Doesn't it just make things worse by antagonising people in the lands that the West fires missiles at? Isn't the way to tackle terrorism through police and intelligence work rather than by bombs? Shouldn't it be treated as a crime rather than as a pretext for war?

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Frank Merton

I DO NOT think drones in Iran are a good idea at all. Afghanistan and Pakistan and Yemen and Somalia, each for individual reasons, can be droned under limited conditions, but I think most other countries are out of the question. After all, such an act really is a serious violation of international law.

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But what is the alternative? To wipe it out before it can destroy us all? it's hardly going to be realistic to expect that, is it, so perhaps the only thing one can do would be to try to stop seeing it as the great Enemy that's just waiting to destroy us all and, perhaps, recognise that a great deal of the antagonism from Them towards Us is a result of poking of Western, i.e. predominantly American, noses into regions where such things don't go down too well. I mean, the point keeps being made that Islam has never changed and commands to wipe out the infidel are still on the statute books, but Islam has existed alongside Christianity and Judaism for a great long time, and it's only really been in the last few decades that it's become the great menace that threatens us all. Might it not be related in some way that that's the time that the West has become more and more heavily involved, thru military and political intervention and economic exploitation, in these areas? i.e. that Islam's commands to destroy the infidel are really just being used as a handy smokescreen for the real reasons, which are almost entirely political?

I have no doubt that geopolitics have played a part in awakening a desire of many to "go back to their roots" so to speak. The idea that Islam existed peacefully aside the other great monotheistic religions is not so easy to prove, Colonel. Sure, Jew and Christian lived side by side with Muslim in many situations down the centuries. Peace existed because the Muslims were not in a position to dominate. Even in modern societies they will blend in until they have enough political power or good will to begin pressing for their "rights". If you cannot see that playing out in GB then you are blind and deaf. But you speak again of WHY they are doing what they are doing. We are currently at war and why is not so important as how to get out of the conflict. They will not put aside animosity and neither will we so long as they loudly keep calling for global domination. It's a bad situation. For my part, I believe OBL fired the first shots of the final world conflict.

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third_eye

~snip

Sure, Jew and Christian lived side by side with Muslim in many situations down the centuries. Peace existed because the Muslims were not in a position to dominate.

~snip

The Golden Age of Islam - A Second Look

by Richard Butrick

January 17, 2012 at 4:00 am

The period from the death of Muhammad through the 13th Century marks the glory days of the Islamic empire. It was a period of commerce, industry and intra-cultural synergies and a flourishing of the sciences, art, medicine and architecture. It was the epitome of what civilization should be. Just ask Obama. In his 2009 Cairo speech the president said that Islam "carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment," and praised the "innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed."

  • gate stone institute dot org link

The Islamic Golden Age

Series rediscovering some of the key thinkers and achievements from the Islamic Golden Age, focusing on architecture, invention, medicine, innovation and philosophy

  • BBc Radio Stream available link

The Golden Age of Islam

Sasha Brookner

Writer, publicist

Sasha Brookner Posted: 10/12/2012 9:27 am

"Logic must be learned from the ancient masters, regardless of the fact that they were not Muslims." Ibn Rushd (Averroes)

There was a Golden Age to Islam once -- a Muslim Renaissance so magnificent, famous, cosmopolitan and cerebral that it's borders didn't always bleed. While some European archaeologists refuse to believe the hype -- not having excavated enough pottery shards -- this era unequivocally produced some of the most enlightened thinkers throughout the Islamic Diaspora. Between the ninth and 13th centuries, the libraries in Baghdad (Bait al-Hikma), Damascus (al-Zahiriyah), Timbuktu (Sankoré), Cordoba (Royal Mosque) and Cairo (Dar al-Hikmah) contained more books, manuscripts and literature than in the entire Greek world. Thanks to China passing along the art of papermaking and the translating skills of travelers, these newborn Islamic scholars went on to become polymaths. They studied spherical trigonometry, agriculture, physics, medicine and science, using astrolabes to measure the altitude of stars while setting up sophisticated astronomical observatories. While Europe was dwindling away from the Dark Ages and the Church was busying itself replacing science with superstition, these Islamic scholars were setting up psychiatric hospitals, correcting Ptolemy, determining the circumference of the Earth while Rhazes produced sulfuric acid and could distinguish whether you had smallpox, chicken pox or measles. Abulcasis was a gynecologist/dentist and Egyptian patients could refill their pharmacy prescriptions at the Qalawun Hospital in Cairo, a facility that offered American liberal's much sought after universal health care. Aristotle, the Greek "master of those who know" was at the top of Averroes and Avicenna's reading list, while some Islamic philosophy paradoxically bordered on secular humanist thought -- with literacy rates that would put the modern day Muslim World to shame. Speaking of literature, two and a half words: Sinbad and Ali-Baba. They became known throughout history as the "Father's of Algebra" with a little help from Diophantus, Aryabhatta, Archimedes, Baudhayana, Hippocrates, Chang Tshang and the Rhind Papyrus (I'm not going to enter that debate in this article), but indeed Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg can thank al-Khwarizmi for his employment of the word "algorithm."

Yeah ... guess who messed it all up ?

~

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joc

I have no doubt that geopolitics have played a part in awakening a desire of many to "go back to their roots" so to speak. The idea that Islam existed peacefully aside the other great monotheistic religions is not so easy to prove, Colonel. Sure, Jew and Christian lived side by side with Muslim in many situations down the centuries. Peace existed because the Muslims were not in a position to dominate. Even in modern societies they will blend in until they have enough political power or good will to begin pressing for their "rights". If you cannot see that playing out in GB then you are blind and deaf. But you speak again of WHY they are doing what they are doing. We are currently at war and why is not so important as how to get out of the conflict. They will not put aside animosity and neither will we so long as they loudly keep calling for global domination. It's a bad situation. For my part, I believe OBL fired the first shots of the final world conflict.

The Dome of the Rock was built in 691AD. It remains today...this is THE most important piece of real estate in all of history. And the Muslims have 'owned' it since 691AD. The Knights of the Temple of Solomon (Knights Templar) came into existence around 1129. I don't know what history lies between those two dates...but if the Jews and Muslims were at peace during that time, then it would mean that the Muslims did dominate...and what they dominated...and still do...is the Foundation Stone.

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and then

The Dome of the Rock was built in 691AD. It remains today...this is THE most important piece of real estate in all of history. And the Muslims have 'owned' it since 691AD. The Knights of the Temple of Solomon (Knights Templar) came into existence around 1129. I don't know what history lies between those two dates...but if the Jews and Muslims were at peace during that time, then it would mean that the Muslims did dominate...and what they dominated...and still do...is the Foundation Stone.

An interesting point. I assume they (Jews) were living dhimmi in the culture but I am open to be corrected if I am wrong. :)

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Frank Merton

Why must people live in the past? It's dead. The future is what matters -- finding ways to make the future better for our descendants does not include re-fighting old wars. I am well aware of the benefits of getting along with the western countries as I have seen the difference myself.

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buckskin scout

Why must people live in the past? It's dead. The future is what matters -- finding ways to make the future better for our descendants does not include re-fighting old wars. I am well aware of the benefits of getting along with the western countries as I have seen the difference myself.

And Zionists and Christian Zionists always cite the past for the reason to justify a Jewish state.

In reality, the Jews had a hegemony over the region of Palestine for 73 years during the reigns of King David and King Solomon.

And enjoyed another such period during the Maccabees for 78 years.

151 years out of 6,000 years worth of human civilization in Palestine.

I don't know if you are anyway, shape or form, religious. But there were two Jewish commonwealths in the whole history of Palestine.

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Frank Merton

I don't know if you are anyway, shape or form, religious. But there were two Jewish commonwealths in the whole history of Palestine.

You know it's frustrating when people miss the point. I was trying to point out that the past is not relevant, and you rehearse your version of the past.
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and then

You know it's frustrating when people miss the point. I was trying to point out that the past is not relevant, and you rehearse your version of the past.

The difference, Frank, is that the whole conflict hinges on faith in God. They will never approach the conflict from a dispassionate mindset and so will continue acting in a way that seems irrational until one side or the other is totally vanquished. Without viewing the situation through the eyes of faith it is impossible to really understand the WHY. Even when one understands the HOW and where it is all heading.
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President-Elect Acidhead

No, it is the dispassionate religious point of view holding everybody else hostage. Quite the reverse.

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Yamato

Let's not force our own interpretations and our own beliefs in God on others. We obviously can't form a consensus amongst ourselves. So this doesn't have anything to do with religion at all. Palestinians are hanging onto what liberty they have left by a thread, and the reasons why have nothing to do with religion. That's the soap they're trying to sell us and I'm not buying it. This is about the destruction of property and of sheer existence. This is about money and power.

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Yamato

Afghanistan and Pakistan and Yemen and Somalia, each for individual reasons, can be droned under limited conditions,

Yes, Lord Vader

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joc

Why must people live in the past? It's dead. The future is what matters -- finding ways to make the future better for our descendants does not include re-fighting old wars. I am well aware of the benefits of getting along with the western countries as I have seen the difference myself.

With regards to Israel and Islam...the Past IS the Future. It all hinges on The Foundation Stone. According to Islamic belief, at the end of time, Judgement Day, the Kaaba will be moved from Mecca and placed on the Foundation Stone where Allah will rule from.

This is the Holiest Place for the Jews...it is the location of the original Temple of Solomon. This is where God gave the Israelites the Arc of the Covenant. Also the place Abraham offered Issac as a sacrifice.

No one talks about the Dome of the Rock...but it is the key to all of this. We are talking about beliefs that are Ancient and are NOT going to go away. The Jews believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Temple of Solomon must be rebuilt on the Foundation Stone. See the problem here...it is one of geography...it has nothing to do with the Palestinians...they are a tool of Islam. It has to do with protecting the Foundation Stone. Who owns it? Which Faith is correct? Judaism or Islam? Without the Past as a guiding reference...the Future seems certain...destruction.

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and then

No, it is the dispassionate religious point of view holding everybody else hostage. Quite the reverse.

Most people are quite passionate about their faith OR their right not to be encumbered with one. The issue in Palestine stems from an Islamic hatred of the Jew. Anyone who can say it isn't with a straight face is profoundly ignorant of what is really going on.

Let's not force our own interpretations and our own beliefs in God on others. We obviously can't form a consensus amongst ourselves. So this doesn't have anything to do with religion at all. Palestinians are hanging onto what liberty they have left by a thread, and the reasons why have nothing to do with religion. That's the soap they're trying to sell us and I'm not buying it. This is about the destruction of property and of sheer existence. This is about money and power.

Money and power have it's place as drivers at the "executive" levels of this conflict, I agree. But the initial reason for the conflict between the common people in both places is hatred for each other that stems from many centuries of distrust, mostly based on religion. Some things are true whether you believe them or not.

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Yamato

Most people are quite passionate about their faith OR their right not to be encumbered with one. The issue in Palestine stems from an Islamic hatred of the Jew. Anyone who can say it isn't with a straight face is profoundly ignorant of what is really going on.Money and power have it's place as drivers at the "executive" levels of this conflict, I agree. But the initial reason for the conflict between the common people in both places is hatred for each other that stems from many centuries of distrust, mostly based on religion. Some things are true whether you believe them or not.

No it's not mostly based on religion at all; you're just pointing out the differences between people and you don't dare bring up skin color. Religion, however, appears to be politically correct enough to kick around like an old donkey around here.

If immigrants/invaders/colonizers are threatening one's home and country, that's okay because why? Because they're Muslims? Because the Qu'ran doesn't instruct Muslims to turn the other cheek enough? Ridiculous. Let's cherry pick what belief we like best and then go kill people over it? Insane.

This is obviously "mostly" based on the perpetual colonization and gradual annexation of all Palestinian land which requires both power and money to pull off.

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