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markdohle

Israel

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joc

I'm afraid that few now remember the Great Seraphina...but I of course do...and I also remember the Great Stellar...

...it would be wise of you Third Eye to 'know' your opponent before you start spouting off...

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third_eye

I am not making any specific reference to anyone when I speak of murderers. I am simply making an analogy to a person that is dangerous to society.

Society. The group of people that make up the immediate living space. I'm purposely leaving the denifition vague because I believe a society can be either within a country, or international, depending on the context of what we speak of.

Don't twist my words. I clearly said their actions would be tried (in a court) and they would be convicted. No where did I advocate anything different than innocent until proven guilty. When they are guilty, their threat must be removed from society. No where did I advocate "exterminating" them either. Capital punishment is it's own debate, and is completely irrelevant to my point.

Justifiable homicide on my part? Please, quote me where I said that. Otherwise, kindly stop putting words in my mouth. Not everyone that disagrees with you is homicidal.

Well we do agree on many points then ... you put words in mine naturally I would return the favor along the same lines ... not that you disagreed with me or agreed ... you just didn't follow the context of the posts according to the pace that's all ...

The key issue here is 'guilty according to who by who and of what' ... and that's the conundrum.

I am only worthy of being a witness ... to see to know and to testify ...

To speak the truth before the judge is more important than all (other) duties.

(The Dharma Sutras, Gutama 13)

.

I'm afraid that few now remember the Great Seraphina...but I of course do...and I also remember the Great Stellar...

...it would be wise of you Third Eye to 'know' your opponent before you start spouting off...

Rest assured that I do not 'spout' nor 'off do I spout' ... but thanks for your due consideration :tu:

~edit : sleepy and double post bypass

~

Edited by third_eye

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Ryinrea

Joc they aren't blown people up by rockets daily the only one whom does those things are in fact Iseral. Stop with this emotional argument and use your brain for once. These are the tottles

[image] http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46348000/gif/_46348507_gaza_casualties466.gif[/image]

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Stellar

Well we do agree on many points then ... you put words in mine naturally I would return the favor along the same lines ... not that you disagreed with me or agreed ... you just didn't follow the context of the posts according to the pace that's all ...

The key issue here is 'guilty according to who by who and of what' ... and that's the conundrum.

I am only worthy of being a witness ... to see to know and to testify ...

~edit : sleepy

.

I don't see what context I missed? I read through your entire conversation with frank. What was it I misunderstood?

As for the key issue, I don't see it as a conundrum per say, I simply see it as the nature of reality. There is no objective source of right or wrong, so it's a battle of opinions.

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Stellar

I'm afraid that few now remember the Great Seraphina...but I of course do...and I also remember the Great Stellar...

...it would be wise of you Third Eye to 'know' your opponent before you start spouting off...

Well thank you joc.

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third_eye

I don't see what context I missed? I read through your entire conversation with frank. What was it I misunderstood?

As for the key issue, I don't see it as a conundrum per say, I simply see it as the nature of reality. There is no objective source of right or wrong, so it's a battle of opinions.

True ... hence each its own ... we do have choices to base our opinions ... not judgement ... something taken much for granted by many ... but not afforded to all as you well know.

My conversations with Frank spans across multi threads Sir ... not just here alone ... and its not a 'battle' by any means more along the lines of 'engagement' of the cerebral manner.

~

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joc

Joc they aren't blown people up by rockets daily the only one whom does those things are in fact Iseral. Stop with this emotional argument and use your brain for once. These are the tottles

[image] http://newsimg.bbc.c...sualties466.gif[/image]

Its not my fault they aren't very good shots...but the idea that they are not firing Rockets daily is total, utter BS.

Rocket Attacks Fired on Israel by Palestinians 2012

Rocket Attacks Fired on Israel by Palestinians 2013

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third_eye

Its not my fault they aren't very good shots...but the idea that they are not firing Rockets daily is total, utter BS.

Rocket Attacks Fired on Israel by Palestinians 2012

Rocket Attacks Fired on Israel by Palestinians 2013

no its not your fault ... its not their fault either ... do you really think they are really so bad shots that the numbers of causing no injuries so outnumber the ones that actually causes injuries or fatalities ?

In November, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 1734 rockets and 83 mortar shells at Israel in 633 separate attacks

hell a blind kid can do better ....

~

the other side of the equation on the other hand :

Joe Quinn

Sott.net

Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:59 CST

The point is that the rocket attacks are the Palestinians ONLY way of protesting against the 60 year long occupation of their land responding to unprovoked Israeli attacks against and murder of Palestinian civilians. Think about that. The Palestinians have no option to appeal to the international community because no one listens. They have zero chance of the Western media applying pressure to halt Israeli aggression and redress Palestinian grievances because the Western media is unashamedly biased towards Israel.

The Palestinians have two choices: they can sit quietly by and allow the IDF to arbitrarily and summarily murder them, or they can fire primitive rockets at the closest targets inside Israel and hope that they make the Israeli government think twice. But even here the Palestinians have a problem: the Israeli government welcomes the firing of Palestinian rockets into Israel, and they periodically provoke it.

......

Manufacturing Terrorism

The Western media would have us believe that Israeli attacks on Gaza are always in retaliation to Palestinian rocket fire into Israel. This is not true, and it is not true of the latest violence. The firing of rockets from Palestine into Israel usually only occur in response to Israeli aggression.

Dissecting IDF propaganda: The numbers behind the rocket attacks

Phan Nguyen on November 17, 2012

And then consider a quote by the Israeli ambassador to the US, Michael Oren, in an interview conducted on November 14:

This government has exhibited superhuman restraint: 2,500 rockets since 2009. Last month, 800 rockets. In the last week, 300 rockets. What government in the world wouldn’t have responded with war a long time ago?

No other Israeli agency claims that 800 rockets were fired in October 2012. Shin Bet claims 171 rockets and mortars were fired from Gaza in October.

Conclusion

It can be argued that numbers ultimately don’t matter: One death is a death too many; one rocket is a rocket too many. But if that is the case, why do the IDF and related Israeli agencies need to inflate or fabricate numbers? Why has the numbers game been the cornerstone of Israeli rhetoric about rockets, as depicted in these other recent IDF graphics:

mondoweiss-logo.png

  • The War of Ideas in the Middle East link

Israel Lobby Watch

Israel’s fabricated rocket crisis

Jim Holstun and

Joanna Tinker

The Electronic Intifada

6 January 2009

....

The graphs show that the total number of rocket and mortar attacks shrank from 245 in June to 26 total for July through October, a reduction of 97 percent. Even this was not enough for Israel, which violated the truce by imposing a terror-famine in Gaza for most of these months. But despite these violations, Hamas refrained from launching rockets until Israel definitively cancelled the truce on the night of 4-5 November by sending an Israeli commando squad into Gaza, where it killed six Hamas members. Hamas responded with 30 rockets.

....

When the history of the war on Gaza is written, Hamas’s remarkable restraint during the lull, as Israel attempted to starve Gaza into submission, will form an important prelude to what Joseph Massad has called the heroic Gaza Ghetto Uprising. But for the moment, it’s vital to remember that what we are witnessing in Gaza is not Israeli retaliation, but an act of unprovoked Zionist genocide using American-made weapons, based on a bloody lie about Qassam barrages obligingly circulated by American media. The question for Americans to ask now is this: what must we do, with our American-made mouths, brains, and bodies, to stop it?

Jim Holstun teaches world literature at SUNY Buffalo. He has previously written “Nonie Darwish and the al-Bureij massacre” for The Electronic Intifada. He and Joanna Tinker live in Buffalo, New York.

  • The Electronic Intifada link

...

The Nada Apartments case illustrates how practices of both Palestinian armed groups and the IDF caused unnecessary civilian casualties. Palestinian armed groups have an obligation not to endanger civilians by firing from the immediate vicinity of apartment buildings when there are feasible alternatives, such as firing from open areas. The IDF must not engage in attacks that use weapons in an indiscriminate manner or cause disproportionate loss of civilian life, and it must take all feasible steps to minimize harm to civilians. In addition, both the PA and the IDF failed to act on warnings provided by the other party, as described in more detail in Appendix II—in the one case to warn and arrange for the evacuation of residents due to the imminent threat of IDF shelling, and in the other case to cease shelling when informed that civilians were being killed and wounded. It is incumbent on both sides to stop the practices that produce civilian deaths and suffering of the sort visited on the Nada Apartments in July 2006. A first step would be to undertake an independent and comprehensive investigation of the incidents. The parties should also ensure that specific mechanisms, such as effective communications between the Palestinian and Israeli officials, are in place and used to reduce the risks of civilian casualties, and that Israeli and PA officials act on such information when it is provided.

Methodology

This report is based on two field missions to Israel’s northwestern Negev region and to northern Gaza in June and July to August 2006, and follow-up research through early June 2007. The team that visited in June 2006 included researchers with substantial experience in military operations and international humanitarian law. Human Rights Watch conducted more than 110 on-site interviews with witnesses and victims of attacks, Palestinian doctors, Palestinian Authority officials, spokespersons of Palestinian political parties, representatives of the IDF and its legal branch, Sderot municipal officials, and international security experts. The teams also analyzed forensic evidence including shrapnel, craters, structural damage, and hospital records. In addition, Human Rights Watch addressed detailed questions to the IDF on several occasions. The IDF responses are reflected in the following chapters and reproduced as Appendix VI to this report.

  • human rights watch org link

The numbers don't add up ... only the numbers of unnecessary loss of civilian lives ... guess where the numbers lies ?

~

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Yamato

You are part of the problem, clearly. Case in point: neither side wants to stop because the other side won't. You've proven my point.

Your point has no case. "I" personally don't prove anything. Crayola coloring either "side" like it's all of one mind is a brainless approach to understanding this issue and so long as you do that you'll never get it right. Palestinians want to "stop" suffering in the "Economic Warfare" Israel is waging against them. How about humanizing them for once, as if they're human beings? Seriously.

People so indoctrinated by 70 years of chronic BS would need to have their own property forcibly taken away by govt before they wake up. I'm not one of those people, and that's why I befuddle you so. When you delve down into your little groups and their little differences to try to justify inhuman barbaric policies again, maybe one day you'll discover the commonalities that make us all human. Maybe you'll discover compassion for those who are suffering in spite of the welfare of those who are making them suffer.

Unfortunately for the intractable Zionist, I don't need six million Palestinians to die in a particular way before I start to care about what's being done to them over there.

Edited by Yamato

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buckskin scout

A keynote research paper showing that Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost identical has been pulled from a leading journal.

Journal axes gene research on Jews and Palestinians

The Times recently carried this unusual report on an Israeli Jew (Tsvi Misinai, a retired computer expert) who's hoping to prove that Palestinians are descended from Jews. Apparently, he thinks that proving this will help to stop the bloodshed. His idea is that modern Jews are descended from emigration in the first few centuries of the Christian era. The Jews who stayed put in Palestine converted to Islam, and became Palestinian Arabs. There's hope that genetic tests might be able to prove this.

Well, there is good news and bad news on that score.

The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

Edited by Still Waters
Reduced amount of copied text - please avoid copy and pasting entire web pages or articles
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Stellar

Your point has no case. "I" personally don't prove anything. Crayola coloring either "side" like it's all of one mind is a brainless approach to understanding this issue and so long as you do that you'll never get it right. Palestinians want to "stop" suffering in the "Economic Warfare" Israel is waging against them. How about humanizing them for once, as if they're human beings? Seriously.

Really? You're going to sit there and tell me that the Palestinians aren't doing anything that may provoke further action from the other side? Perhaps you should open your eyes then.

No, the Palestinians are also fighting. Both sides are fighting. Which side is "justified" in fighting is a matter of debate, and is irrelevant in the sense that both sides believe they are justified in fighting, and are not going to be convinced otherwise--- which brings me back to my original point: Neither side wants to stop fighting because they believe they are justified in doing so, and if they stop, the other side wont --- hence perpetuating the same cycle weve been seeing.

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Yamato

Really? You're going to sit there and tell me that the Palestinians aren't doing anything that may provoke further action

Anything that "may provoke further action"? "Anything" constitutes just about anything. That's a lot to "stop".

Where does this insane vision of the world come from where populations mustn't do "anything" to provoke crimes against their humanity? What a ridiculously unique double standard to impose on only Palestinians.

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Yamato

Some Palestinians are fighting for Palestine, for their economic freedom, for their freedom of mobility and self determination, as they should be. How they best go about doing that is up for debate. The implication though that Palestinians can't do this and can't do that is pulled from some big secret book of Hypocrisy in the sky that nobody has been able to name yet.

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joc

Some Palestinians are fighting for Palestine, for their economic freedom, for their freedom of mobility and self determination, as they should be. How they best go about doing that is up for debate. The implication though that Palestinians can't do this and can't do that is pulled from some big secret book of Hypocrisy in the sky that nobody has been able to name yet.

Doesn't that apply to both sides. It is nothing more than the Hatfields and McCoys. Hatfields: Gonna kill them damn McCoys. McCoys: Gonna kill them damn Hatfields. Yamato: The Hatfields are warmongering Aparthied loving murderers. Please....

Maybe we should just kill them all...and let God/Allah sort it out.

Edited by joc
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Stellar

Anything that "may provoke further action"? "Anything" constitutes just about anything. That's a lot to "stop".

Where does this insane vision of the world come from where populations mustn't do "anything" to provoke crimes against their humanity? What a ridiculously unique double standard to impose on only Palestinians.

Bit melodramatic, don't you think?

Are some Palestinians using acts of violence against Israel?

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green_dude777

Doesn't that apply to both sides. It is nothing more than the Hatfields and McCoys. Hatfields: Gonna kill them damn McCoys. McCoys: Gonna kill them damn Hatfields. Yamato: The Hatfields are warmongering Aparthied loving murderers. Please....

Maybe we should just kill them all...and let God/Allah sort it out.

Ok, with that said, why did you choose to side with the Hatfields (or McCoys, I don't care which side is which).

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joc

Ok, with that said, why did you choose to side with the Hatfields (or McCoys, I don't care which side is which).

Look, the thing is, with the Hatfields and McCoys, they had been feuding for generations. No one really even remembered what they were fighting for anymore. All they new was that Bob Hatfield shot Uncle Chester McCoy and they were going to pay..and so they got back by shooting Junior Hatfield, and the fighting continued back and forth...tit for tat.

As Stellar said, Neither side is going to stop...because each side cannot trust the other side to stop too....so ...it continues. I have chosen the side of Israel because I know why they are both fighting. It's history and it is there for all to see. You just have to take the time to read it. Don't mistake my words to mean that I trust Israel...I don't...history has taught us that lesson as well. So...what to do about it? Bring there war here? Fight each other over which side is right or wrong? I am not going to war for Israel. I don't really have that much of a dog in the fight. But I do know that the Palestinians who blow themselves up to murder innocent civilians there are no different than the guys that flew the planes into the Trade Center here. And if Israel is slaughtering civilians on the Palestinian side, they are no different either.

It is an old, old fight that has been going on long before you and I were even born. So...I say...there are bigger fish to fry. We won't solve it. Time will solve it.

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President-Elect Acidhead

Doesn't that apply to both sides. It is nothing more than the Hatfields and McCoys. Hatfields: Gonna kill them damn McCoys. McCoys: Gonna kill them damn Hatfields. Yamato: The Hatfields are warmongering Aparthied loving murderers. Please....

Maybe we should just kill them all...and let God/Allah sort it out.

Maybe we should just kill them all? Who's 'we'? That's crazy talk.

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joc

Maybe we should just kill them all? Who's 'we'? That's crazy talk.

:w00t:

...that actually comes from a Die Hard movie...Kill 'em all, Let God sort 'em out...at least it was on a Die Hard video game I remember from years ago...

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ShadowSot

:w00t:

...that actually comes from a Die Hard movie...Kill 'em all, Let God sort 'em out...at least it was on a Die Hard video game I remember from years ago...

Actually... it originates from something a Catholic Abbott said to a solider who was worried about accidentally killing Catholics while they were wiping out the Cathar heretics in the 13th century.

I feel the western world has a bit of responsibility for setting up the situation in the first place, which makes the link back to the Crusades from the quote somewhat more appropriate.

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Yamato

Doesn't that apply to both sides. It is nothing more than the Hatfields and McCoys. Hatfields: Gonna kill them damn McCoys. McCoys: Gonna kill them damn Hatfields. Yamato: The Hatfields are warmongering Aparthied loving murderers. Please....

Maybe we should just kill them all...and let God/Allah sort it out.

You're right about one thing, it has little to nothing to do with "the two sides" and I've been among the first to admit it and have done so many times. When we get down to brass tacks, it's identifying what really matters. What really matters is humanity and freedom. Who flung poo is just academic.

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Yamato

Maybe we should just kill them all? Who's 'we'? That's crazy talk.

Gubamint

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joc

Actually... it originates from something a Catholic Abbott said to a solider who was worried about accidentally killing Catholics while they were wiping out the Cathar heretics in the 13th century.

I feel the western world has a bit of responsibility for setting up the situation in the first place, which makes the link back to the Crusades from the quote somewhat more appropriate.

Really? I never heard that. :tu: How do you correlate the West to the Crusades? I'm not really following that...1492...1100's...not following the chronology in either dates or thought.

Edited by joc

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ShadowSot

Really? I never heard that. How do you correlate the West to the Crusades? I'm not really following that...1492...1100's...not following the chronology in either dated or thought.

Politics in the area have painted American intervention in the Middle East back to the conflicts of the Crusades during the Medieval Era.

Helped by the preaching from office of certain politicians.

And the link is fairly apparent when you remember that part of the aim of the Crusades was to recapture the Holy Land from Muslims, and here today we have Israel restored and the local Muslim population shoved aside. It's part of what makes the propoganda so effective.

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joc

Politics in the area have painted American intervention in the Middle East back to the conflicts of the Crusades during the Medieval Era.

Helped by the preaching from office of certain politicians.

And the link is fairly apparent when you remember that part of the aim of the Crusades was to recapture the Holy Land from Muslims, and here today we have Israel restored and the local Muslim population shoved aside. It's part of what makes the propoganda so effective.

I'm still not getting the 'American' part of it. Columbus discovered America in 1492...

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