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markdohle

Israel

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ShadowSot

The early histories states that many of the higher initiated Templars were very tolerant of other religious practices ... which contributed one of the reasons for their downfall I guess ....

~

Yes, from what I've read they went a bit native and hired locals. The Baphomet name that they got may well have been a corruption of Mohammad.
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third_eye

Yes, from what I've read they went a bit native and hired locals. The Baphomet name that they got may well have been a corruption of Mohammad.

Not quite sure about that ... there is contradicting opinions that when applied with the Templars own cipher system Baphomet translates as 'Sophia'

~

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Bavarian Raven

Well, what he discovered was a few islands in the Caribbean which he bumbled around for a bit. Personally I think the Vikings probably have the best claim. Although we may be wandering off topic now.

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Bavarian Raven

And to go further off topic Columbus apparently spent time in Iceland, when Greenland colony was still around (a Greenland that had been trading and resourcing with North America for almost five hundred years). Cheers.

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joc

Well if one believes the biblical account this information should come as no surprise. They all sprang from the same father after all. A more interesting question is - if the majority of the Jews of the diasporas retained their special identity and customs while being scattered throughout the world, then why did Jews of Palestine feel the need to convert to Islam?

Just going from memory here...but it seems I recall that Muhammed was a bit miffed because the Jews did not recoginze him as a prophet (I'm not sure why).

Wasn't it the King of Jordan, who alienated all the Palestinians? I'm pretty sure that was the case...then why aren't the Palestinians clammering all over Jordan?

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ShadowSot

Not quite sure about that ... there is contradicting opinions that when applied with the Templars own cipher system Baphomet translates as 'Sophia'

~

There are a lot of ideas as to the origin of the word, don't think anyone's really settled it.
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and then

Just going from memory here...but it seems I recall that Muhammed was a bit miffed because the Jews did not recoginze him as a prophet (I'm not sure why).

Wasn't it the King of Jordan, who alienated all the Palestinians? I'm pretty sure that was the case...then why aren't the Palestinians clammering all over Jordan?

No, and you won't. Neither will any of us hear them complaining in the media about the atrocious way they have been treated by Lebanon, Syria or Egypt. They are basically stepchildren that no one wants to be bothered with. I do not say that to disrespect their humanity - I say it because it is TRUE. In most cases they are not allowed citizenship and cannot even hold professional positions or be educated. Yet you hear the citizens of all these countries screaming death to Israel due to their treatment of the Palestinians. Rank hypocrisy.
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Yamato
They are basically stepchildren that no one wants to be bothered with.

Love them anyways.

We have no interest in cruelty to children. Hello.

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buckskin scout

I felt compelled to repost this video in this thread too:

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third_eye

Just going from memory here...but it seems I recall that Muhammed was a bit miffed because the Jews did not recoginze him as a prophet (I'm not sure why).

Wasn't it the King of Jordan, who alienated all the Palestinians? I'm pretty sure that was the case...then why aren't the Palestinians clammering all over Jordan?

Not so man ... it was broken treaties ... betrayal ... the people of the book were to be respected and allowed to practice their faith ... but Mohammed and his band of merry men were persecuted much like the early christians ... the Jewish heads took a look at his rag tag men and thought the army coming to kick butt would mop the desert sands with Mohammed's hide ... so they backed the wrong horse and betrayed the 'believers'

And only the ones that betrayed Mohammed were banished ...

~ too tired to google ... its not hard ... hell even posted links here before ... you guys just never give it a peek even ... sometimes i wonder why i even bother ... pfffft

~

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Frank Merton

This may be just me but I think it is common; I have been disappointed so many times when links provided proved to be either biased propaganda or not saying at all what the poster says they say, that I almost never watch them or go to them.

I would say the best course if you want to make a point is to make it yourself, not being wordy as that also loses readers. Leave off with just one or two salient points and leave the rest to future opportunities. One of course must provide links when proving facts in dispute, but then post the proof and only link the footnote.

This applies in triplicate to the present issue. I could not care less who persecuted whom, and I am sure there was a lot of it around, but my understanding is that the Mohamed stores, like those of Jesus and the Buddha, are largely mythical, not written down by eyewitnesses but only a century or more later. It makes no particular difference except to those who are fanatics.

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third_eye

This may be just me but I think it is common; I have been disappointed so many times when links provided proved to be either biased propaganda or not saying at all what the poster says they say, that I almost never watch them or go to them.

I would say the best course if you want to make a point is to make it yourself, not being wordy as that also loses readers. Leave off with just one or two salient points and leave the rest to future opportunities. One of course must provide links when proving facts in dispute, but then post the proof and only link the footnote.

This applies in triplicate to the present issue. I could not care less who persecuted whom, and I am sure there was a lot of it around, but my understanding is that the Mohamed stores, like those of Jesus and the Buddha, are largely mythical, not written down by eyewitnesses but only a century or more later. It makes no particular difference except to those who are fanatics.

Keep your hat on Frank ... and leave the shooter in the holster ...

Not all the materials are mythical ... if the early Arab culture were not so prolific in writing and translating the ancient scripts I doubt the Renaissance would have had a spark to start from .... HIstory Frank ... are all historians fanatics in your book ?

~

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joc

Not so man ... it was broken treaties ... betrayal ... the people of the book were to be respected and allowed to practice their faith ... but Mohammed and his band of merry men were persecuted much like the early christians ... the Jewish heads took a look at his rag tag men and thought the army coming to kick butt would mop the desert sands with Mohammed's hide ... so they backed the wrong horse and betrayed the 'believers'

And only the ones that betrayed Mohammed were banished ...

~ too tired to google ... its not hard ... hell even posted links here before ... you guys just never give it a peek even ... sometimes i wonder why i even bother ... pfffft

~

pfffft back at ya...I was correct after all...

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Muhammad became increasingly hostile to the Jews over time as he "perceived that there were irreconcilable differences between their religion and his, especially when the belief in his prophetic mission became the criterion of a true Moslem."[14] When the Jewish community challenged "the way in which the Koran appropriated Biblical accounts and personages; for instance, its making Abraham an Arab and the founder of the Ka‘bah at Mecca" Muhammad viewed it as a personal attack and in turn "accused them of intentionally concealing its true meaning or of entirely misunderstanding it, and taunted them with being 'asses who carry books' (sura lxii. 5)."[14]

LINK

The term Black September refers to the Jordanian Civil War that began in September 1970 and ended in July of 1971. The conflict was fought between the two major components of the Jordanian population, the Palestinians represented by the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) under the leadership of Yasser Arafat and the Trans-Jordanians represented by the Jordanian Armed Forces under the leadership of King Hussein.[5] At its core the civil war sought to determine if Jordan would be ruled by the Palestine Liberation Organisation or the Hashemite Monarchy.[6] The war resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian.[3] Armed conflict ended with the expulsion of the PLO leadership and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon.

LINK

Edited by joc

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third_eye

pfffft back at ya...I was correct after all...

The term Black September refers to the Jordanian Civil War that began in September 1970 and ended in July of 1971. The conflict was fought between the two major components of the Jordanian population, the Palestinians represented by the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) under the leadership of Yasser Arafat and the Trans-Jordanians represented by the Jordanian Armed Forces under the leadership of King Hussein.[5] At its core the civil war sought to determine if Jordan would be ruled by the Palestine Liberation Organisation or the Hashemite Monarchy.[6] The war resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian.[3] Armed conflict ended with the expulsion of the PLO leadership and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon.

LINK

Sorry ... i thought you were emphasizing -

Just going from memory here...but it seems I recall that Muhammed was a bit miffed because the Jews did not recoginze him as a prophet (I'm not sure why).

Wasn't it the King of Jordan, who alienated all the Palestinians? I'm pretty sure that was the case...then why aren't the Palestinians clammering all over Jordan?

am very tired today ...

~

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Frank Merton

Keep your hat on Frank ... and leave the shooter in the holster ...

Not all the materials are mythical ... if the early Arab culture were not so prolific in writing and translating the ancient scripts I doubt the Renaissance would have had a spark to start from .... HIstory Frank ... are all historians fanatics in your book ?

~

There is not much doubt the Spanish reconquest from the Moors, and the high level of civilization of the Moors, contributed to a lot of ancient and Arab material finding its way into the West, and this no doubt helped the West in its intellectual recovery, at the same time Arab intellectual progress has stagnated.

What we have to remember about religions and their texts is that to the extent they are filled with miraculous material they are not historical. We see no problem with this approach when dealing with Homer or Hesiod or Virgil, but religions reject this when dealing with their own history, and often successfully stifle scholars with similar views.

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third_eye

There is not much doubt the Spanish reconquest from the Moors, and the high level of civilization of the Moors, contributed to a lot of ancient and Arab material finding its way into the West, and this no doubt helped the West in its intellectual recovery, at the same time Arab intellectual progress has stagnated.

What we have to remember about religions and their texts is that to the extent they are filled with miraculous material they are not historical. We see no problem with this approach when dealing with Homer or Hesiod or Virgil, but religions reject this when dealing with their own history, and often successfully stifle scholars with similar views.

I know what you mean Frank ... but to pot the whole thing under not discernible from Historical facts does the historians no justice ... is what I'm saying //

~

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joc

Sorry ... i thought you were emphasizing -

am very tired today ...

~

Me too. Why does morning have to come so early? It should come like...maybe...12:30pm or so.

But yeah...Muhammad thought he Jews were dissing him...in fact...He also thought the Meccans were dissing him. You know, when you have this 'truth' that you KNOW is the truth (even though it isn't) and people call you a fool...it creates strife.

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third_eye

Me too. Why does morning have to come so early? It should come like...maybe...12:30pm or so.

But yeah...Muhammad thought he Jews were dissing him...in fact...He also thought the Meccans were dissing him. You know, when you have this 'truth' that you KNOW is the truth (even though it isn't) and people call you a fool...it creates strife.

Nah ... broken treaties is a very big and serious transgression in those days man ... a man's word is as good as his life ... and to 'give one's word' is not just a promise ~ much more so when its a 'treaty'

.

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joc

Nah ... broken treaties is a very big and serious transgression in those days man ... a man's word is as good as his life ... and to 'give one's word' is not just a promise ~ much more so when its a 'treaty'

.

Muhammad did not wage war because of broken treaties...maybe in part he did...but mostly it was because he wasn't recognized as a prophet...it was really those who DID recognize him as a prophet that were behind all the blood shed. Not much has really changed has it. If you are Meccan and you diss Moham...you get killed. If you are American or Jew or anything else in the 21st century and you diss Moham...you get killed...you cannot deny that..it is history...it is fact...you know how to read as well as I do.

Edited by joc

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third_eye

Muhammad did not wage war because of broken treaties...maybe in part he did...but mostly it was because he wasn't recognized as a prophet...it was really those who DID recognize him as a prophet that were behind all the blood shed.

There was no 'wars' yet ... only hostilities and persecution ...

YOu are lumping everything into one sentence man ... and that's years and years of history into a few words ... its overs simplified history is what it is ... the 'believers' did not want to make the Jews enemies ... the 'enemies' of those days was Rome or what was left of it ... evidently everyone backed Rome to crush Mohammed ... and joined with the Standard of the Eagle ... things just didn't turn out that way ... allegiance changes as the wind in those days ... the outer regions can be bought and sold on the turn of gold coins ... while the leaders of nations were just trying to get by day by day ... the only thing that one can rely on is treaties ... when that is deemed non reliable too ... well ... everyone just lumped every else as enemies ... with just the binding agreement as either you are with the Eagle of you are with the Crescent Moon ...

Islam wasn't even an established religion yet in those early years that you speak of ...

In its own time, there was no such thing as "the Byzantine Empire," there was just the on-going Roman Empire; the "Byzantine Empire" is a scholarly term of convenience. As a result, there is no date that marks the moment when Rome became Byzantium and no scholarly convention either. Likewise, there is no consensus on exactly what period marks either the empire's zenith or the beginning of its decline. Like most nations and empires, the fortunes of the Romans/Byzantines ebbed with plagues, earthquakes, contested successions, and military challenges. Four distinct periods of sustained crises have been identified by historians:

  • The crisis of the Fourth and Fifth Centuries, which saw invasions by the Visigoths, Huns, Alans, and Vandals across both the Rhine and Danube frontiers and sweeping through most of Europe.
  • The crisis of the Seventh Century, which saw the explosive expansion of the new Arab empire at the Byzantine's expense.

1180.extract.jpg

  • Empires of Faith: The Fall of Rome to the Rise of Islam, 500–700 by Peter Sarris
  • oxford journals org extract link

Empires of Faith: The Fall of Rome to the Rise of Islam, 500-700

Peter Sarris

Abstract

Drawing upon the latest historical and archaeological research, this work provides a panoramic account of the history of Europe, the Mediterranean and the Near East from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Islam. The formation of a new social and economic order in western Europe in the fifth, sixth and seventh centuries, and the ascendancy across the West of a new culture of military lordship, are placed firmly in the context of on-going connections and influence radiating outwards from the surviving Eastern Roman Empire, ruled from the great imperial capital of Constantinople.

  • oxford scholarship link

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and then

There was no 'wars' yet ... only hostilities and persecution ...

YOu are lumping everything into one sentence man ... and that's years and years of history into a few words ... its overs simplified history is what it is ... the 'believers' did not want to make the Jews enemies ... the 'enemies' of those days was Rome or what was left of it ... evidently everyone backed Rome to crush Mohammed ... and joined with the Standard of the Eagle ... things just didn't turn out that way ... allegiance changes as the wind in those days ... the outer regions can be bought and sold on the turn of gold coins ... while the leaders of nations were just trying to get by day by day ... the only thing that one can rely on is treaties ... when that is deemed non reliable too ... well ... everyone just lumped every else as enemies ... with just the binding agreement as either you are with the Eagle of you are with the Crescent Moon ...

Islam wasn't even an established religion yet in those early years that you speak of ...

1180.extract.jpg

  • Empires of Faith: The Fall of Rome to the Rise of Islam, 500–700 by Peter Sarris
  • oxford journals org extract link

  • oxford scholarship link

You can continue to attempt to cast any speech against the words of the Qur'an as ignorance but it will only fool the weak minded. Like the song says "we're wise to you this time, we won't let you kill the laughter" - that comes from an anthem for our times LUNATIC FRINGE

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jeem

Very important discovery made by jeem

Reading this and some other thread it can be concluded that when people start to talk about Israel it somehow turn into Islam being a religion of violence and start demonizing Islam misrepresenting Ayah from Qur'an bringing their own version of history.

I wonder did the christian(some) consider demonizing and hating Islam their noble ,holy,divine duty.

I believe Christ didn't teach them to do it(How could he no one even know the name of Islam at that time) or did he?

Edited by jeem
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and then

Very important discovery made by jeem

Reading this and some other thread it can be concluded that when people start to talk about Israel it somehow turn into Islam being a religion of violence and start demonizing Islam misrepresenting Ayah from Qur'an bringing their own version of history.

I wonder did the christian(some) consider demonizing and hating Islam their noble ,holy,divine duty.

I believe Christ didn't teach them to do it(How could he no one even know the name of Islam at that time) or did he?

I reject the assertion of hatred and have explained to any reasonable person why I reject the idea that Islam is a religion based on peaceful coexistence. As to what Christ knew - Christians genuinely believe him to be the Creator of EVERYTHING. So, yes, we believe he knew - and knows - all things.

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President-Elect Acidhead

I reject the assertion of hatred and have explained to any reasonable person why I reject the idea that Islam is a religion based on peaceful coexistence. As to what Christ knew - Christians genuinely believe him to be the Creator of EVERYTHING. So, yes, we believe he knew - and knows - all things.

Yeah.. and Santa Claus will deliver presents through chimneys and there is an Easter Bunny

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Yamato

Very important discovery made by jeem

Reading this and some other thread it can be concluded that when people start to talk about Israel it somehow turn into Islam being a religion of violence and start demonizing Islam misrepresenting Ayah from Qur'an bringing their own version of history.

I wonder did the christian(some) consider demonizing and hating Islam their noble ,holy,divine duty.

I believe Christ didn't teach them to do it(How could he no one even know the name of Islam at that time) or did he?

You nailed it brother, and for the record, you're a real gentleman to have gotten through what your religion just went through so smoothly.

It's demonizing Islam to defend specific Israeli and US foreign policies; that's the batter of their bread. These truly are modern day crusaders, jeem. Put a sword in their hand and fly them off to the desert however and they wouldn't last 48 hours without the welfare of strangers, but when it's someone else's blood doing the bleeding, defending governments with a keyboard is both easy and fashionable.

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