Israel

[preacherman76]

Looking at everything Jesus Christ taught us to believe in, Israel doesn't act Christian.

Well they did nail the guy to a cross.

[preacherman76]

According to Islam, Jesus didn't even die, he just rose straight to Heaven without even dying. Who else ever pulled that off? He may not be the "Son" of God (I was raised a Christian yet I'm not convinced by any of these familial/genealogical connections myself) but Jesus is a divine messenger of God in Islam.

Jews are still waiting for their Messiah today, and technically are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of their Messiah. But why subscribe to Judaism when you can subscribe to Zionism? "Have everything now!" (i.e. don't listen to those old books telling you to wait for someone who never seems to come).

You're always a gentleman, Mark. Peace brother

Thats according to one sec. It isnt supported by the old test though. In fact there are several old test, and new test prophecies that says Israel will exist before the coming of the messiah. Biblicaly Israel is in the exact state it should be on the prophecy time table.

[preacherman76]

I want peace in the Middle East Yamato. There will be no peace as long as Iran is a terrorist state. You can say I drink the koolaid of the neocons all you want...makes no difference to me what you think. The truth ...and history...are on my side.

I gotta agree with Yam here. I think you have bought into propaganda pushed on us from banks who have yet to take complete control of Iran. Its why we took over Afgan, Iraq, Lybia, and have been pushing for war in Syria. IMF buildings were being built in the countries we were able to take over before the bodies of millions of innocents were put in the ground. Whats even more crazy is we openly supported and funded al CIAda to take over Lybia, and Syria. Proving those crazy "conspiracy theorists" right when they said al CIAda was a western invention.

[markdohle]

I gotta agree with Yam here. I think you have bought into propaganda pushed on us from banks who have yet to take complete control of Iran. Its why we took over Afgan, Iraq, Lybia, and have been pushing for war in Syria. IMF buildings were being built in the countries we were able to take over before the bodies of millions of innocents were put in the ground. Whats even more crazy is we openly supported and funded al CIAda to take over Lybia, and Syria. Proving those crazy "conspiracy theorists" right when they said al CIAda was a western invention.

Propaganda? Well maybe some. However we see how the Muslims treat one another, I think it would be a serious mistake not to back up Israel. Yamato has some points, but not enough for us to abandon the Jewish state.

peace

mark

[markdohle]

It's an impossible situation, so we should support the one side that has all the power, money, and weapons?

This is the only reason you support Israel. Which is weird, because they're the ones that deny JC was the messiah, and they don't even accept him as a prophet. At least the Muslims see JC as a prophet. If I remember correctly, wasn't it the heads of the Jewish temples at the time that accused JC, then brought him before a Roman governor, then elected to have him scourged and crucified, all the while releasing a murderer instead?

No that is not the reason I am for Israel. Not all Christian are pro-Israel by any means. It is about what would happen if we withdrew support from them. Which I believe in the end cost many lives, maybe millions of lives. It is a bad situation no matter how you look at it.

Peace

Mark

[Sundew]

Well they did nail the guy to a cross.

No, that would be the Romans, since the Sanhedrin reminded Pilate that, under Roman Rule, they were not legally allowed to carry out the death penalty. However, the Pharisees certainly did plot and plan his murder as well as try Him in a kangaroo court. So both jew AND gentile played their part in His death.

[+joc]

I gotta agree with Yam here. I think you have bought into propaganda pushed on us from banks who have yet to take complete control of Iran. Its why we took over Afgan, Iraq, Lybia, and have been pushing for war in Syria. IMF buildings were being built in the countries we were able to take over before the bodies of millions of innocents were put in the ground. Whats even more crazy is we openly supported and funded al CIAda to take over Lybia, and Syria. Proving those crazy "conspiracy theorists" right when they said al CIAda was a western invention.

The whole violent issue is one of religion not oil. The Muslims were slaughtering Christians long before oil was ever discovered. It was the Knights of Solomon, the Knights Templar, created by the Catholic Church that began to pave a way to peace...through strength...in the Middle East. It was also the Knights Templar that created the banking system that we are all slaves to.

None the less...the current 20th/21st century MiddleEastern problems have to do with hatred of Israel and the West by Islamists in Iran and the surrounding countries. It is a religious war. Not for you maybe...but it is for them...and when the President of Iran threatens to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth...that is a threat to be taken seriously. When did Iran start their nuclear program?

The nuclear program of Iran was launched in the 1950s with the help of the United States as part of the Atoms for Peace program.[1] The participation of the United States and Western European governments in Iran's nuclear program continued until the 1979 Iranian Revolution that toppled the Shah of Iran.[2]

After the 1979 revolution, a clandestine nuclear weapons research program was disbanded by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (1902–1989), who considered such weapons forbidden under Muslim ethics and jurisprudence.[3] Iran has signed treaties repudiating the possession of weapons of mass destruction including the Biological Weapons Convention,[4] the Chemical Weapons Convention,[5] and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).[6]

Link

Edited November 28, 2013 by joc

[Dark_Grey]

I gotta agree with Yam here. I think you have bought into propaganda pushed on us from banks who have yet to take complete control of Iran. Its why we took over Afgan, Iraq, Lybia, and have been pushing for war in Syria. IMF buildings were being built in the countries we were able to take over before the bodies of millions of innocents were put in the ground. Whats even more crazy is we openly supported and funded al CIAda to take over Lybia, and Syria. Proving those crazy "conspiracy theorists" right when they said al CIAda was a western invention.

Exactly. What is so hard for the pro-Israeli/anti-Iran crowd to understand about that?

Look at our government as it is now - if they really cared about freedom, democracy and all that b.s. why weren't they in Africa 10 years ago instead of the middle-east? Some of the worst genocides are STILL being committed down there and yet we turn our backs.

If you think the military-industrial complex would go anywhere that didn't directly benefit them somehow you are SORELY mistaken my friends. If you want to delude yourselves into thinking we're over there just "to help the good people of Israel! XD" you need a serious reality check.

I mean c'mon: 20 years ago, Bin Laden made the daily news as a peace-keeper and a friend of the people. 10 years later 9/11 happens and Bin Laden is now the most wanted person on Earth. Fast forward another 10 years and we're supposed to be sympathetic to the cause of the these "freedom fighters" over there? Do they think we were born yesterday? Don't get caught up in their mind-games. If they are telling you Iran is the enemy, it's probably just the opposite.

Also, just to underscore what Preacherman had said, it IS one of the few countries left that doesn't have a centralised banking system. Maybe that's coincidental, maybe it's not.

[Dark_Grey]

The whole violent issue is one of religion not oil. The Muslims were slaughtering Christians long before oil was ever discovered. It was the Knights of Solomon, the Knights Templar, created by the Catholic Church that began to pave a way to peace...through strength...in the Middle East.

Boy...where have I heard that rhetoric before..."war is peace", right? History is ALWAYS written by the victors. The most sane thing we can do is try and see it from the other side. Knowing both sides of any story is the only way to be truly objective.

[+joc]

Boy...where have I heard that rhetoric before..."war is peace", right? History is ALWAYS written by the victors. The most sane thing we can do is try and see it from the other side. Knowing both sides of any story is the only way to be truly objective.

That doesn't necessarily make history false. Would you agree that we were actually in a world war with the Germans, Italy, and Japan? Or was that a scenario made up by the 'government'?

Let's take a real life scenario. You have to walk to work everyday...along the way there is a bully. Everyday he demands 20 dollars or he won't let you pass. You get tired of paying him and so he beats the crap out of you. You start paying him again. But one day...one day...instead of 20 dollars...you hand him a baseball bat in the teeth. You just CREATED Peace through STRENGTH.

I'm not talking about some Big Brotherish view of life. I'm a real person living in real time thinking real thoughts that are not 'given' to me by any government or media outlet. We think for ourselves.

[+and-then]

Well they did nail the guy to a cross.

Actually that was done by the Romans

[+and-then]

No that is not the reason I am for Israel. Not all Christian are pro-Israel by any means. It is about what would happen if we withdrew support from them. Which I believe in the end cost many lives, maybe millions of lives. It is a bad situation no matter how you look at it.

Peace

Mark

I have said the same here for a couple of years. We became virtually attached at the hip as soon as Israel became a nuclear power. I am most definitely glad that is the case but even for those who see it as a destructive thing the truth is we really have no choice about abandoning them if we want to reduce the chance of a nuclear weapon blooming in the region. Israel will NOT allow themselves to be run away from their land - never again will they burn alone - and I fully support their right to that ethos. No people should be killed off in their entirety because of the hatred and bias of the few. And before any of the silly nonsense about genocide begins I will quote someone else from here a few days ago -"show me the mass graves". You cannot because they don't exist. It cheapens the horror of that event every time the word is used so casually. Abandon Israel however and you may very well see them.

[odas]

I want peace in the Middle East Yamato. There will be no peace as long as Iran is a terrorist state. You can say I drink the koolaid of the neocons all you want...makes no difference to me what you think. The truth ...and history...are on my side.

How many countries has Iran attacked in the last 100 years? Please name two.

[Dark_Grey]

That doesn't necessarily make history false. Would you agree that we were actually in a world war with the Germans, Italy, and Japan? Or was that a scenario made up by the 'government'?

Let's take a real life scenario. You have to walk to work everyday...along the way there is a bully. Everyday he demands 20 dollars or he won't let you pass. You get tired of paying him and so he beats the crap out of you. You start paying him again. But one day...one day...instead of 20 dollars...you hand him a baseball bat in the teeth. You just CREATED Peace through STRENGTH.

I'm not talking about some Big Brotherish view of life. I'm a real person living in real time thinking real thoughts that are not 'given' to me by any government or media outlet. We think for ourselves.

I understand the concept of necessary force and the concept of recording events. I'm just saying, take history with several grains of salt and be aware of who put pen to paper. I think one of my favorite quotes of the year is "when you want to know who's in charge, just figure out who you're not allowed to question."

[Yamato]

Thats according to one sec. It isnt supported by the old test though. In fact there are several old test, and new test prophecies that says Israel will exist before the coming of the messiah. Biblicaly Israel is in the exact state it should be on the prophecy time table.

No that's incorrect. It's from the Torah or else I wouldn't have even said that. Deuteronomy 30: "He will come back and gather you from all the nations wherein the L-rd your G-d scattered you."

[Yamato]

Well they did nail the guy to a cross.

Who's "they"? The Romans? And that's only according to Christianity. According to Islam Jesus rose through a hole in the roof of a house, very much alive in the process.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Yamato

[Yamato]

Let's take a real life scenario. You have to walk to work everyday...along the way there is a bully. Everyday he demands 20 dollars or he won't let you pass. You get tired of paying him and so he beats the crap out of you. You start paying him again. But one day...one day...instead of 20 dollars...you hand him a baseball bat in the teeth. You just CREATED Peace through STRENGTH.

I'm not talking about some Big Brotherish view of life. I'm a real person living in real time thinking real thoughts that are not 'given' to me by any government or media outlet. We think for ourselves.

Why can't you apply that real life scenario to Palestinians first and foremost who need it the most? Your real life scenario actually happens every day over there, and when a Palestinian or two decide to fight back, it is incessantly used by the media and western govts as an excuse to keep oppressing innocent people.

You're thinking exactly what the govt and the media tell you to think. How am I supposed to differentiate you from that?

[Yamato]

I have said the same here for a couple of years. We became virtually attached at the hip as soon as Israel became a nuclear power. I am most definitely glad that is the case but even for those who see it as a destructive thing the truth is we really have no choice about abandoning them if we want to reduce the chance of a nuclear weapon blooming in the region. Israel will NOT allow themselves to be run away from their land - never again will they burn alone - and I fully support their right to that ethos. No people should be killed off in their entirety because of the hatred and bias of the few. And before any of the silly nonsense about genocide begins I will quote someone else from here a few days ago -"show me the mass graves". You cannot because they don't exist. It cheapens the horror of that event every time the word is used so casually. Abandon Israel however and you may very well see them.

Virtually attached at the hip huh? Israel denies entire populations their civil liberties and human rights. Only a statist is going to support Israel once they get an accounting of the facts. "Genocide"? Who else brought that up?

No people should be killed off in their entirety because of the hatred and bias of the few.

What a ridiculous statement. Nothing should happen because of hatred or bias of anybody. People shouldn't be killed off in their entirety, PERIOD

Edited November 28, 2013 by Yamato

[+joc]

Why can't you apply that real life scenario to Palestinians first and foremost who need it the most? Your real life scenario actually happens every day over there, and when a Palestinian or two decide to fight back, it is incessantly used by the media and western govts as an excuse to keep oppressing innocent people.

You're thinking exactly what the govt and the media tell you to think. How am I supposed to differentiate you from that?

You have a Pro-Iranian, Anti-Israel mindset. And, on top of that, you are paranoid of the US Government...and to some extent that is healthy...but any obsession is NOT healthy.

It isn't government propoganda that Iran arms Hamas to the teeth. It isn't government or neo-con propoganda that Iran wants to destroy Israel.

Iran is an ally of Moscow. What that really means...is that Iran is a TOOL of Moscow. All of Islam is being used as a tool by Moscow against the West and Israel. So, am I to assume then that you are a Communist or at the least a Communist Sympathizer because you support Iran and are against Israel? How am I supposed to differentiate you from that?

[Yamato]

You have a Pro-Iranian, Anti-Israel mindset. And, on top of that, you are paranoid of the US Government...and to some extent that is healthy...but any obsession is NOT healthy.

It isn't government propoganda that Iran arms Hamas to the teeth. It isn't government or neo-con propoganda that Iran wants to destroy Israel.

Iran is an ally of Moscow. What that really means...is that Iran is a TOOL of Moscow. All of Islam is being used as a tool by Moscow against the West and Israel. So, am I to assume then that you are a Communist or at the least a Communist Sympathizer because you support Iran and are against Israel? How am I supposed to differentiate you from that?

Many people think your government arms terrorist thugs, who are you or I to say that Iran can't do the same thing for its terrorist thugs? That would be square. My position is that nobody should do that, whether I'm paranoid, pro, or anti doesn't even matter. Should we be bombed or invaded for arming Likud, Taliban and Al Qaeda sympathizers in Libya and Syria?

If we want to tell foreigners what not to do, we need to check in our own mirrors first to make sure we're not already doing it ourselves.

As to the specific claims you're making, you sound heavily indoctrinated by something. I'd like to know where you get your information from.

[+and-then]

How many countries has Iran attacked in the last 100 years? Please name two.

The United States AND France - both on October 23rd of '83. A total of over 300 dead. Iran's leaders are wise like a serpent in that they use stealth to kill their enemies. They are cowards. And they succeed because of foolish people in the west who carry their water for them.

[thyra]

The United States AND France - both on October 23rd of '83. A total of over 300 dead. Iran's leaders are wise like a serpent in that they use stealth to kill their enemies. They are cowards. And they succeed because of foolish people in the west who carry their water for them.

US or Israel doesnt even listen to Iran politicians, they leave the rooms when their politicians start speaking in UN. I dont think world was open to understanding of or communication with Iran politicians for a very long time. It is natural you see them nasty from this point of view.

Persians are not known to be cowards at all. to the contrary they are known to be among the best of warriors in the history.

[Frank Merton]

Iran is an ally of Moscow. What that really means...is that Iran is a TOOL of Moscow. All of Islam is being used as a tool by Moscow against the West and Israel. So, am I to assume then that you are a Communist or at the least a Communist Sympathizer because you support Iran and are against Israel? How am I supposed to differentiate you from that?

Russia is no longer a Communist state, and while it does some unfortunate things here and there it is not out to destroy the West (nor are any of the remaining Communist states except North Korea, and it shames me to call them Communist).

I am a Communist and tend to find myself generally supporting Israel, although of course my government keeps a neutral stance. There is far more Communist thinking in Israel than in any other country in the region.

[Yamato]

I support the security/safety of Israel, not the foreign policies which endanger it.

[preacherman76]

Actually that was done by the Romans

Na, the Romans just got the dirty work. They didnt want anything to do with it.