Why China is fixated on the Moon

[Waspie_Dwarf]

Why China is fixated on the Moon

The Moon could be a "beautiful" source of minerals and energy, a top Chinese scientist has told the BBC.

Exotic materials including helium-3 and the potential for solar power could prove invaluable for humankind, he says.

The comments come from Prof Ouyang Ziyuan of the department of lunar and deep space exploration.

His first interview with the foreign media provides insights into China's usually secretive space programme.

Read more...

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

They want to paint it red with a few stars on it.

[SHaYap]

moon cakes ain't never gonna taste the same again ~

[freetoroam]

He mentions the solar panels, well this could be good news, the Chinese could follow and work with the Japanese on this one, after they have resolved their disputes on Earth over airspace.

[seeder]

I think we need to wait and see if their rover actually makes its landing first..

[SHaYap]

let's not get ahead of ourselves ... let's just focus on the lift off first ... then the orbiting the moon ... etc etc etc ... and etc etc till the successful return of the taikonauts ~

[Waspie_Dwarf]

and etc etc till the successful return of the taikonauts ~

What talkonauts? It's an unmanned mission.

[SHaYap]

What talkonauts? It's an unmanned mission.

You are looking at it from the perspective of a singular mission ... we are looking at it as an endeavor in its entirety ... manned missions is part of the plans ...

[toast]

,,, just because they want to investigate if it can be eaten somehow.

[seeder]

Blast off

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25178299

[Waspie_Dwarf]

manned missions is part of the plans ...

Not officially.

China has expressed a desire to EVENTUALLY send a crew to the Moon, but it is not part of their current planning.

They do not have a booster with the capability to even send a Shenzhou on a mission to lunar orbit, never mind to land a crew there.

China's current plans are for a space station. The core module of that station is unlikely to be launched before 2018 (they don't have a launcher with enough lift for that yet either). Completion of the station is likely around 2022.

Realistically it is a decade before China will even decide IF it wants to send crew to the Moon.

By all means look to the bigger picture, but look to the real one, not a fictional one.

[coolguy]

At least china is doing something ,NASA just stopped sending ships in space. We have to ride with the Russia's if we wanna go in to space

[Jack Skellington]

They eventually want to land a man on the moon.... because it's never been done before.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

At least china is doing something ,NASA just stopped sending ships in space. We have to ride with the Russia's if we wanna go in to space

Not true.

Whilst NASA currently need Russia for CREWED missions it still leads the world in unmanned exploration. NASA currently has 2 rovers on Mars and 2 Martian orbiters with another on the way. Two spacecraft orbiting the Moon. A spacecraft orbiting Mercury. A spacecraft orbiting Saturn. A spacecraft exploring the asteroid belts. A spacecraft on it's way to Jupiter and another on it's way to Pluto.

The USA is currently working on not one but FOUR new manned spacecraft.

Talk of NASA's demise is highly exaggerated.

[SHaYap]

Not officially.

China has expressed a desire to EVENTUALLY send a crew to the Moon, but it is not part of their current planning.

They do not have a booster with the capability to even send a Shenzhou on a mission to lunar orbit, never mind to land a crew there.

China's current plans are for a space station. The core module of that station is unlikely to be launched before 2018 (they don't have a launcher with enough lift for that yet either). Completion of the station is likely around 2022.

Realistically it is a decade before China will even decide IF it wants to send crew to the Moon.

Are you speaking on behalf of the China Space program or your opinion/believes of the capabilities of the China Space Program ?

By all means look to the bigger picture, but look to the real one, not a fictional one.

Care to elaborate on your definition of 'real' and 'fiction' here ?

~

[Waspie_Dwarf]

Are you speaking on behalf of the China Space program or your opinion/believes of the capabilities of the China Space Program ?

I am speaking based on the information released by the Chinese. I am basing it on fact not guess work.

Care to elaborate on your definition of 'real' and 'fiction' here ?

Sure, real is factual based rather than pure guess work.

China has no ability to send a man to the Moon- FACT

China is concentrating on a space station -FACT

China has yet to decide whether to even build a booster for manned lunar exploration -FACT.

[freetoroam]

China is concentrating on a space station -FACT

China has yet to decide whether to even build a booster for manned lunar exploration -FACT.

Doesn`t this involve planning?

Just asking.

[SHaYap]

I am speaking based on the information released by the Chinese. I am basing it on fact not guess work.

Sure, real is factual based rather than pure guess work.

China has no ability to send a man to the Moon- FACT

China is concentrating on a space station -FACT

China has yet to decide whether to even build a booster for manned lunar exploration -FACT.

No ability ... why ? Did they fail Space Exploration 101 ?

Concentrating on a space station and nothing else ? Or are they incapable of concentrating on more than one thing at a time ... officially ?

Yet to decide ... maybe they'll decide for it or take another course of action ?

Doesn`t this involve planning?

Just asking.

maybe it is just cheaper to buy ... and use up a bit of the debt credits ... it kinda hard to recover on debts these days ...

~

[Waspie_Dwarf]

No ability ... why ? Did they fail Space Exploration 101 ?

To get a manned mission to land on the Moon you need one of two things. Either a very big rocket in the Saturn V class OR the ability to construct the vehicle in orbit.

China has no large rocket in the Saturn V class. China has not yet even decided if it is going to build a super-heavy lift rocket.

China has not yet attempted construction in orbit (and will not do so until they launch the second module of their space station in around 2020).

For a manned orbital flight around the Moon you do not need such a large launcher. You could use something in the Proton/Ariane 5 class. China does not have a launcher even that big. Boosters in the Proton class are currently in development but will not be available for a few years. That is why their space station core module won't be launched for 4 to 5 years, because they CAN'T launch it for 4 to 5 years.

Conceivably they could use several smaller boosters to construct a vehicle in space and dock a modified Shenzhou to it but they haven't yet tried in orbit construction (see above).

Therefore China currently has no ability to mount a manned mission to the Moon. I would suggest that if anyone has failed space 101 it's not China.

Concentrating on a space station and nothing else ? Or are they incapable of concentrating on more than one thing at a time ... officially ?

If you throw enough cash at it then it would undoubtedly be possible to concentrate on mounting a manned lunar mission and a space station at the same time. Of course you would need a vastly increased number of engineers, rocket scientists, construction facilities. It would be hugely expensive. It's beyond the reach of NASA and yet you expect the Chinese, whose space exploration budget is less than 10% of NASA's to be able to achieve it.

China hasn't failed economics 101 either.

Yet to decide ... maybe they'll decide for it or take another course of action ?

Now you're getting it.

They may choose to go to the Moon, they may not. I personally believe they will but that is simply my opinion and I can distinguish between personal opinion and fact.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

There is no need to take my word for it. Here is a story I posted in September 2012. Little has changed since.

China: no timetable for manned moon landing

[SHaYap]

To get a manned mission to land on the Moon you need one of two things. Either a very big rocket in the Saturn V class OR the ability to construct the vehicle in orbit.

China has no large rocket in the Saturn V class. China has not yet even decided if it is going to build a super-heavy lift rocket.

China has not yet attempted construction in orbit (and will not do so until they launch the second module of their space station in around 2020).

For a manned orbital flight around the Moon you do not need such a large launcher. You could use something in the Proton/Ariane 5 class. China does not have a launcher even that big. Boosters in the Proton class are currently in development but will not be available for a few years. That is why their space station core module won't be launched for 4 to 5 years, because they CAN'T launch it for 4 to 5 years.

Conceivably they could use several smaller boosters to construct a vehicle in space and dock a modified Shenzhou to it but they haven't yet tried in orbit construction (see above).

Therefore China currently has no ability to mount a manned mission to the Moon. I would suggest that if anyone has failed space 101 it's not China.

If you throw enough cash at it then it would undoubtedly be possible to concentrate on mounting a manned lunar mission and a space station at the same time. Of course you would need a vastly increased number of engineers, rocket scientists, construction facilities. It would be hugely expensive. It's beyond the reach of NASA and yet you expect the Chinese, whose space exploration budget is less than 10% of NASA's to be able to achieve it.

China hasn't failed economics 101 either.

Now you're getting it.

They may choose to go to the Moon, they may not. I personally believe they will but that is simply my opinion and I can distinguish between personal opinion and fact.

Not to disagree with you on too many points but what I'm seeing is manned missions iS very much in the plans ... and the technicalities you put forward doesn't seems to concern the present opinions very much ~

China launches ‘Jade Rabbit’ rover to moon, precursor to manned mission

By Simon Denyer, Published: December 2 | Updated: Tuesday, December 3, 12:45 AM

BEIJING — China took a significant step toward eventually landing a person on the moon with Monday’s successful launch of a rocket carrying its first moon rover, the “Jade Rabbit.”

The rocket blasted off from southwestern China at 1:30 a.m. Monday, a day after India’s maiden Mars orbiter left Earth’s orbit on its journey to the red planet, in what some observers characterize as Asia’s new space race.

• Washington Post link
  

China Launches Moon Rover Mission

By CHRIS BUCKLEY Published: December 1, 2013

..... China’s military drives the country’s space program, and that has caused wariness among Western governments. Suspicions have been magnified by allegations that China has stolen information for its space and missile programs. Congress passed a law in 2011 that bans the National Aeronautics and Space Administration from developing bilateral contacts with China, although multilateral contacts are not proscribed.

But China’s program has reached a point where deeper cooperation with the United States or Russia would make little difference, said Gregory Kulacki, China project manager at the Union of Concerned Scientists. He nonetheless supports closer contacts to foster cooperation and reduce mistrust. “They don’t really need to rely on any outside sources to continue to make the progress that they’re making,” Mr. Kulacki said.

• New York Times link
  

Designer: moon rover uses cutting-edge technology

by Han Bin Xinhua News

Beijing (XNA) Dec 01, 2013

This mission shows China's resolve to bridge the gap with other space going nations. The Chang'e-3 is just one more example of the country's increasing technological capabilities. For scientists, like Jia Yang, the next part of the space dream could be clear, sending astronauts to the moon.

• SpaceDaily link
  

[SHaYap]

edit : latest on the news

Ready to work with India in space, China says after lunar launch Sutirtho Patranobis, Hindustan Times Beijing, December 02, 2013

Ready to work with India in space, China says after lunar launch

Sutirtho Patranobis, Hindustan Times

Beijing, December 02, 2013

It quoted one of the country’s top space scientists, Li Benzheng, deputy commander-in-chief of China’s lunar program, as saying Chinese scientists were ready to cooperate with other countries in the field of space.

“Chinese space scientists are looking forward to cooperation with other countries, including the country's close neighbor India. Li Benzheng, deputy commander-in-chief of China's lunar program, told media earlier that China's space exploration does not aim at competition,” Xinhua said.

“We are open in our lunar program, and cooperation from other countries is welcome,” he said, adding: “We hopeto explore and use space for more resources to promote human development.”

China has already sent manned missions to space but with India launching the internationally acclaimed and closely followed Mars mission, the space race between the two giant neighbours is expected to get closer and sharper.

It quoted one of the country’s top space scientists, Li Benzheng, deputy commander-in-chief of China’s lunar program, as saying Chinese scientists were ready to cooperate with other countries in the field of space.

“Chinese space scientists are looking forward to cooperation with other countries, including the country's close neighbor India. Li Benzheng, deputy commander-in-chief of China's lunar program, told media earlier that China's space exploration does not aim at competition,” Xinhua said.

“We are open in our lunar program, and cooperation from other countries is welcome,” he said, adding: “We hopeto explore and use space for more resources to promote human development.”

China has already sent manned missions to space but with India launching the internationally acclaimed and closely followed Mars mission, the space race between the two giant neighbours is expected to get closer and sharper.- See more at: http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/ready-to-work-with-india-in-space-china-says-after-lunar-launch/article1-1158160.aspx#sthash.WTPdtXqX.dpuf

• link
  

[Waspie_Dwarf]

third-eye, sorry it has taken so long to get back to you.

Not ONE of your links support your claim that China is currently working towards a manned mission to the moon.

Let's have a look at what they actually say-

From the first article you quote, the Washington Post:

China aims to follow the United States by landing a man on the moon - though it has yet to set a target date for that mission -; and to continue toward Mars.

(My emphasis)

No target date... could it be because they are not yet in a position to make plans as to when they can land? It doesn't back your claims I'm afraid but it is consistent with the article I linked to stating that China has no time table for manned lunar exploration. Besides this is an American newspaper's assessment, it is not from Chinese sources.

The second article, the New York Times, makes no mention of manned Chinese missions to the Moon at all, but does agree with what I said:

China's advances in space include five manned flights, which are intended to pave the way for a space station.

Again this is consistent with what I said, China are working on a manned space station.

From your third article, SpaceDaily (actually from the Chinese Xinhua news agency):

For scientists, like Jia Yang, the next part of the space dream could be clear, sending astronauts to the moon.

(Again my emphasis).

"Could be" and "dream", not very definite is it. No talk of plans, just dreams.

From your final article the Hindustan Times:

China's ambitious space program wants to land a manned mission to the moon sometime after 2020.

(My emphasis once again)

Again the expression "wants to". No mention of plans, no mention of working towards it, just that they want to. Look at when they "want to" go; a vague period after 2020 which would be after the construction of their space station (consistent with what I said).

These articles are totally consistent with my position, they do not support yours.

I'm afraid you are seeing what you want to see, not what is actually there. You are confusing China's ambitions with what they are actually currently planning to do. They may have ambitions to put men on the moon, I have not denied that, but they have no current plans to actually do so.

They talk about future aims and desires in the same way that NASA talks about the desire to send astronauts to Mars. NASA aren't in a position to mount or even start preparing a manned Mars mission because it is not funded. The same holds true of China's manned lunar ambitions.

The Chinese manned programme is progressing very slowly. It is 10 years since they first put a man in space. In that time they have launched only 5 manned missions. For comparison the Soviet Union launched 17 manned mission in the first 10 years, NASA launched 26 missions in the first 10 years including 4 Moon landings. Their next space lab, Tiangong-2 is due for launch in 2015 and it is highly likely that they will make no more manned missions until then. That will give us just 6 missions in 12 years.

The Chinese can have ambitions for a manned lunar mission but they CAN NOT plan to do so until they have the launch vehicles and the experience in the requisite techniques. It would be like planning a cross country drive when you do not own and don't know how to drive.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.

- Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but please don't claim that articles back you up when they clearly don't.

The difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to trying to bend the facts to fit your opinion, I am bending my opinion to fit the facts.

[SHaYap]

No worries ... and no agenda and no bending either ... just the difference in the way the news is reported here (East) and there (West) and then there is that little problem of Western interpretation of Mandarin ... CCTv makes no bones about getting a manned mission going ... you know how the Chinese Bureaucracy moves ... and from what I see on the China (HK/Taiwan/Asian) aerospace forums they are very serious about a manned mission. Its just that as you can see from my first post here ... we tend to take things one step at a time ... all the way through ... and thoroughly all the way is what the principle objective (mandate ? ) is ... the safe return of the taikonauts ... they wont bother with that if manned missions are not on the agenda ... I don't know ... maybe everything will just get scrapped in the next hour if the Politburo crumbles or some idiot fires a missile over the DiaoYu Islands ...

~edit : in a hurry ... laters

Edited December 11, 2013 by third_eye