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wuhugm

Faster Than Light and Time Travel

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Rlyeh

I don't think it's going to work like that. If both are travelling away from each other at the same velocity then the other's clock compared to their own would be slowed by the same amount and both would fire at the same time though both would think the other fired early

This causes the other to react earlier and in the example B kills A before they fired the first shot. In B's reference frame A fired at B earlier than he was meant to, so B fires back which in A's reference frame is before he fired. All reference frames are equally valid. Edited by Rlyeh

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Rlyeh

Now this tachyon dueling reminds me of double slit experiment or even schrodinger's cat

both creates the possibility of a paradox

but to the immediate observers and to us, the rest of humanity, these events have no impact whatsoever

either the cat dies or not, or what happened in quantum level, the world is not affected at all

to us everything is simply a single event

so in the case of tachyon dueling as well, theoritically there's a higher frame of reference where this event holds no significant whatsoever

and the possibility of Time Dilation being an elaborate hoax

Or FTL is impossible.
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wuhugm

FTL impossible means Star Trek like future also impossible

and that wouldn't be fun

though I wouldn't be alive to witness it

Also wait a minute, let's consider tachyon bullet as a single particle, does the emergence of new Frame of Reference magically causing a particle to doubles or disappear?

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spacecowboy342

Now this tachyon dueling reminds me of double slit experiment or even schrodinger's cat

both creates the possibility of a paradox

but to the immediate observers and to us, the rest of humanity, these events have no impact whatsoever

either the cat dies or not, or what happened in quantum level, the world is not affected at all

to us everything is simply a single event

so in the case of tachyon dueling as well, theoritically there's a higher frame of reference where this event holds no significant whatsoever

and the possibility of Time Dilation being an elaborate hoax

Time dilation has been confirmed by experiments. These "tachyon guns" are theoretically impossible though, as instantaneous travel is ruled out in theory as is anything, even information, being propagated faster than light is impossible so this kind of paradox is ruled out. I think the only possible causality violation involves wormholes though personally, I think there may be some unknown principle which will rule this out as well. Imagine a scientist who opens a wormhole in his lab between two rooms which opens in the second room to a point ten minutes earlier than in the room he is starting in. He goes through the hole and arrives ten minutes in his past and goes out the door and down the hall to the first room where he sees himself working on opening the wormhole. Not recognizing himself and,thinking someone is trying to steal his equipment, he pulls a pistol and shoots himself before he can open the wormhole, so that he doesn't go through to his own past and doesn't go down the hall and shoot himself thus allowing him to open the wormhole and go down the hall to shoot himself...This is causality violation

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spacecowboy342

This causes the other to react earlier and in the example B kills A before they fired the first shot. In B's reference frame A fired at B earlier than he was meant to, so B fires back which in A's reference frame is before he fired. All reference frames are equally valid.

Right but according to each they have already hit 0 when they fired. I still think they will fire at the same time but I'm going to have to draw this out on paper to figure it out and I don't have time right now

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Frank Merton

Ah one of these days we will figure out how to make alternate realities and will forget about going to the stars.

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spacecowboy342

FTL impossible means Star Trek like future also impossible

and that wouldn't be fun

though I wouldn't be alive to witness it

Also wait a minute, let's consider tachyon bullet as a single particle, does the emergence of new Frame of Reference magically causing a particle to doubles or disappear?

There is another possibility for Star Trek like travel which is warping space
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Frank Merton

There is another possibility for Star Trek like travel which is warping space

I thought Star Trek found out that doing that had destructive effects on space and had to be curbed.

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wuhugm

Time dilation has been confirmed by experiments. These "tachyon guns" are theoretically impossible though, as instantaneous travel is ruled out in theory as is anything, even information, being propagated faster than light is impossible so this kind of paradox is ruled out. I think the only possible causality violation involves wormholes though personally, I think there may be some unknown principle which will rule this out as well. Imagine a scientist who opens a wormhole in his lab between two rooms which opens in the second room to a point ten minutes earlier than in the room he is starting in. He goes through the hole and arrives ten minutes in his past and goes out the door and down the hall to the first room where he sees himself working on opening the wormhole. Not recognizing himself and,thinking someone is trying to steal his equipment, he pulls a pistol and shoots himself before he can open the wormhole, so that he doesn't go through to his own past and doesn't go down the hall and shoot himself thus allowing him to open the wormhole and go down the hall to shoot himself...This is causality violation

Wakakka, that was funny

There is another possibility for Star Trek like travel which is warping space

I'm sure that warp bubble is the thing that enables enclosed ship to reach FTL

that's not Fold Drive

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spacecowboy342

I thought Star Trek found out that doing that had destructive effects on space and had to be curbed.

Maybe so. I have wondered about that myself

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spacecowboy342

Wakakka, that was funny

I'm sure that warp bubble is the thing that enables enclosed ship to reach FTL

that's not Fold Drive

Well if you are in a warp bubble then you aren't actually flying faster than light so you won't get younger as you go. This still won't send you back in time though.

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wuhugm

Well if you are in a warp bubble then you aren't actually flying faster than light so you won't get younger as you go. This still won't send you back in time though.

About that, isn't it actually impossible for human body and mind to withstand FTL travel without that bubble or equivalent thing?

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spacecowboy342

About that, isn't it actually impossible for human body and mind to withstand FTL travel without that bubble or equivalent thing?

I don't know about that but I think it is impossible to get to FTL without that kind of thing

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wuhugm

I don't know about that but I think it is impossible to get to FTL without that kind of thing

Thus making any Frame of Reference as said by Ryleh non-existant, since the observer must be put in stasis if not for any warp bubble, unconscious means no observer, no observer no Frame of Reference, but with warp bubble any time dilation would cease to exist

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sepulchrave

Back to the original topic, if you understand the ``relativity of simultaneity'' then you will see how it allows backwards time travel.

Basically, for every two points in space-time that are connected by a ``space-like interval'' (i.e. any two points that you would need FTL speeds to travel between) there is a particular choice of coordinates that places these two points has happening ``simultaneously'' from that perspective.

This means that you can leave from point A, travel to point B via FTL, shift your coordinate perspective, and travel back to A arriving before you left.

This is described in detail in the ``tachyonic antitelephone'' article in the wiki; just replace ``FTL signal'' with ``FTL travel'' and you can see how you can travel back into the past.

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wuhugm

Back to the original topic, if you understand the ``relativity of simultaneity'' then you will see how it allows backwards time travel.

Basically, for every two points in space-time that are connected by a ``space-like interval'' (i.e. any two points that you would need FTL speeds to travel between) there is a particular choice of coordinates that places these two points has happening ``simultaneously'' from that perspective.

This means that you can leave from point A, travel to point B via FTL, shift your coordinate perspective, and travel back to A arriving before you left.

This is described in detail in the ``tachyonic antitelephone'' article in the wiki; just replace ``FTL signal'' with ``FTL travel'' and you can see how you can travel back into the past.

Is that so? no, it's not interchangeable, signal and travel

doing that means you actually make a COPY of yourself and this clearly breaches The Law of Conservation of Matter

Don't tell me the replicator in Star Trek was based on this technology? Grabbing it's copies from different timeline. Like replicator in Doraemon.

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wuhugm

Oh wait, I have a funny scenario if Backward Time Travel is possible with this method

First we make a condition that if our future self arrived before we left then we change our coordinate a bit

for example, for 1st roundtrip that makes our copy arrives 60 seconds before we left, if it does, we change so that we arrive 1 second faster

when 1st copy arrives, accelerate 1 second, this slight modification already breaks the loop, and since every Frame of Reference is valid then every copies are real

1st copy arrives, then a second later 2nd copy arrives as well

Departing time is still according to schedule

like this, in 60 seconds we can create 60 copies of ourselves, and possibly as many as we want

No matter how you think about it, this is ridiculous, thus Einstein made a mistake in his equation

Edited by wuhugm

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Rlyeh

Thus making any Frame of Reference as said by Ryleh non-existant, since the observer must be put in stasis if not for any warp bubble, unconscious means no observer, no observer no Frame of Reference, but with warp bubble any time dilation would cease to exist

Huh? When did reference frames require an observer and when did observer mean conscious human?

Many experiments have been done without conscious humans, at least during the experiment, obviously someone is required to analyse the results however.

Edited by Rlyeh

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third_eye

Isn't FTL a problem of mass rather than velocity/momentum ?

~

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spacecowboy342

Isn't FTL a problem of mass rather than velocity/momentum ?

~

Problem of mass just getting to c. FTL also has problems with causal paradox evidently
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spacecowboy342

Back to the original topic, if you understand the ``relativity of simultaneity'' then you will see how it allows backwards time travel.

Basically, for every two points in space-time that are connected by a ``space-like interval'' (i.e. any two points that you would need FTL speeds to travel between) there is a particular choice of coordinates that places these two points has happening ``simultaneously'' from that perspective.

This means that you can leave from point A, travel to point B via FTL, shift your coordinate perspective, and travel back to A arriving before you left.

This is described in detail in the ``tachyonic antitelephone'' article in the wiki; just replace ``FTL signal'' with ``FTL travel'' and you can see how you can travel back into the past.

This still confuses me. It would seem that from the perspective of an observer on earth watching a FTL ship traveling at 10c for 10 LY and back would observe the trip taking 2 years and watching the ship's clock would observe it moving backwards. Aboard the ship they would observe their clock working normally while if they could observe earth's clock it would appear to be moving backwards. I don't doubt your math but I still don't see how they arrive in earth's past, but it seems time should go backwards for the traveler making him younger. In the twin paradox, traveling at c for 10 LY out and back according to earth's clocks the trip would take twenty years while on the ship no time would have passed so the traveling twin would not have aged while the earth bound twin would be twenty years older. I can't figure why this should be different for FTL. Am I missing something?

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third_eye

I sometimes wonder if the galaxies we're seeing out there is still 'there' or are we just pointing our telescopes out into space and all we're seeing is ghostly images of a long dead universe ... how far back in the past are we actually looking at ?

~

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wuhugm

Huh? When did reference frames require an observer and when did observer mean conscious human?

Many experiments have been done without conscious humans, at least during the experiment, obviously someone is required to analyse the results however.

Out of Sight, Out of Mind~

Time Loop Logic

I sometimes wonder if the galaxies we're seeing out there is still 'there' or are we just pointing our telescopes out into space and all we're seeing is ghostly images of a long dead universe ... how far back in the past are we actually looking at ?

~

They are dead, they just haven't got the news yet~

Edited by wuhugm
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spacecowboy342

I sometimes wonder if the galaxies we're seeing out there is still 'there' or are we just pointing our telescopes out into space and all we're seeing is ghostly images of a long dead universe ... how far back in the past are we actually looking at ?

~

The furthest thing we can detect is the cosmic microwave background radiation. It's something like 13.4 billion light years away. This is the furthest we can see because before this the universe was so hot all was plasma and it is opaque to visible light
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SilentHunter

Earth time 2010 AD, you saw a planet 10 light years away with your super telescope, let's call it Gaia and for the sake of it let's have Gaia also in 2010 it's time.

Then you saw a landmark (building, natural structure, whatever) in Gaia about to be destroyed (By aliens, super sandstorm, whatever) in approximately 6 hours. You then immediately done your spacesuit and then teleporting to Gaia to stop it.

You arrived and what did you find... The landmark is long gone, destroyed years ago, exactly 10 years ago.

Nope, I'm afraid it doesnt work like that. If you instantly teleported 10 light years to Gaia you would find you have 6 hours before the landmark gets destroyed so you could indeed save it. Then if you teleported back what you would see through your telescope would match what you did on Gaia.

Time is non-local, it doesnt obey traditional casuality and the unfolding of events is plastic not fixed. The easiest way to explain all that is to imagine that all possible pasts and futures co-exist. Your actions, at any point in the universe, at any point in time, determine the past which is then selected (a process called retrocasuality) and the future that comes into being.

The selection process is based on seeking information (measuring, observing, etc) and as no information on the destruction of the landmark has been received by you on Earth yet then it hasnt occured. That means the past has only been chosen up to 6 hours before the landmarks destruction. The outcome is therefore still open.

Edited by SilentHunter

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