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wuhugm

Faster Than Light and Time Travel

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spacecowboy342

Nope, I'm afraid it doesnt work like that. If you instantly teleported 10 light years to Gaia you would find you have 6 hours before the landmark gets destroyed so you could indeed save it. Then if you teleported back what you would see through your telescope would match what you did on Gaia.

Time is non-local, it doesnt obey traditional casuality and the unfolding of events is plastic not fixed. The easiest way to explain all that is to imagine that all possible pasts and futures co-exist. Your actions, at any point in the universe, at any point in time, determine the past which is then selected (a process called retrocasuality) and the future that comes into being.

The selection process is based on what information you acquire and as no information on the destruction of the landmark has been received by you on Earth yet then it hasnt occured. That means the past hasnt yet been chosen.

I have to disagree. The light you see in your telescope would have been traveling for 10 years to get to you meaning what you see actually happened 10 years earlier so unless you have a wormhole to take you 10 years in the past you would see the landmark already destroyed 10 years earlier when you instantly teleport there

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wuhugm

I have to disagree. The light you see in your telescope would have been traveling for 10 years to get to you meaning what you see actually happened 10 years earlier so unless you have a wormhole to take you 10 years in the past you would see the landmark already destroyed 10 years earlier when you instantly teleport there

That's what I thought too, because no Time Dilation involved in this case

My Super Telescope ain't time machine, it's only extract information from photons that arrived on earth

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Frank Merton

I sometimes wonder if the galaxies we're seeing out there is still 'there' or are we just pointing our telescopes out into space and all we're seeing is ghostly images of a long dead universe ... how far back in the past are we actually looking at ?

~

The universe is not now what we see, but many stars have lifetimes longer than the furthest back in time we can see.

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third_eye

The universe is not now what we see, but many stars have lifetimes longer than the furthest back in time we can see.

I'm thinking of localised ... how do we really know that the stars are still 'there' as of 'now' ?

~

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spacecowboy342

I'm thinking of localised ... how do we really know that the stars are still 'there' as of 'now' ?

~

We don't. If we see a supernova a million light years away that star has actually been dead for a million years though we didn't know it
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third_eye

We don't. If we see a supernova a million light years away that star has actually been dead for a million years though we didn't know it

I'm not even wondering about millennial ... just ten thousand years ... or even five ... we could all blink out in the next ten and we'll never see the universe pop and disappear from the night sky ~

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spacecowboy342

I saw a science channel program where this physicist said that probably wouldn't happen for at least 20 billion years. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it

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third_eye

20 billion years ... based on what ?

the numbers that makes the picture as we know it now 'right' ... things are happening that seems to point to the picture being not so right ...

Radioactive decay is not 'constant' ... that means to me all this 'dating' numbers needs to be re evaluated ... and with the numbers they are playing with ... a plus minus zero point zero one percent means a few generations of the life expectancy of a human lifetime ... not very reassuring is it ?

~

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SilentHunter

I have to disagree. The light you see in your telescope would have been traveling for 10 years to get to you meaning what you see actually happened 10 years earlier so unless you have a wormhole to take you 10 years in the past you would see the landmark already destroyed 10 years earlier when you instantly teleport there

Physics is often counter-intuitive with us finding objects not behaving as our common sense or logic would dictate. This is such an instance.

You arent playing catchup to events which have already occured in the past, somewhere else in the universe, light years away. You expect that because you're rationalising using normal casuality (cause and effect) where you imagine a chain of events leading to what you observe. You therefore think for an event to be observed by you then a chain of events in the past must already have occured. Things dont work that way.

Retrocausality is when events that happen now determine the past which means the effect determines the cause. Until you acquire information by measuring, observing or other means then the past hasnt happened. When you acquire that information the past comes into being to match that infromation.

Retrocasuality article - http://www.kathryncr...ocausality.html

Retrocasuality Youtube video -

The experiments have already been done. Watch the whole of the following video but at 4.55 + notice how the experiment where they remove a screen hiding the particle detector cameras retroactivity erases the path the particles took in the past and replaces it with a new one to comply with them now being observed by the cameras. [media=]

Insane lmao !!!

Edited by SilentHunter

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Rlyeh

Physics is often counter-intuitive with us finding objects not behaving as our common sense or logic would dictate. This is such an instance.

You arent playing catchup to events which have already occured in the past, somewhere else in the universe, light years away. You expect that because you're rationalising using normal casuality (cause and effect) where you imagine a chain of events leading to what you observe. You therefore think for an event to be observed by you then a chain of events in the past must already have occured. Things dont work that way.

Actually they do when talking of light reaching us from stars. You're effectively ignoring astronomy and cosmology in favour of some fringe theory.
Retrocausality is when events that happen now determine the past which means the effect determines the cause. Until you acquire information by measuring, observing or other means then the past hasnt happened. When you acquire that information the past comes into being to match that infromation.

Retrocausality is considered hypothetical in physics.
The experiments have already been done. Watch the whole of the following video but at 4.55 + notice how the experiment where they remove a screen hiding the particle detector cameras retroactivity erases the path the particles took in the past and replaces it with a new one to comply with them now being observed by the cameras.
A modified video from a deceptive uploader is your "evidence"? The original doesn't have this retrocausality crap the uploader has thrown in, nor does it contain the fallacies he's presented. Edited by Rlyeh
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SilentHunter

Actually they do when talking of light reaching us from stars. You're effectively ignoring astronomy and cosmology in favour of some fringe theory.

Retrocausality is considered hypothetical in physics.

A modified video from a deceptive uploader is your "evidence"? The original doesn't have this retrocausality crap the uploader has thrown in, nor does it contain the fallacies he's presented.

The only astronomy that agrees with you is that which is based on classical mechanics. You need to update your knowledge as Newton died a long time ago. Your choose of language is eyebrow raising but unfortunately the youtube video does not contain the fallacies you claim it does. The quantum eraser experiment was accurately depicted and heres another site (Wiki) saying exactly the same thing -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment

If you read the second stage of the experiment it tells you 'the which-path information is erased'.

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spacecowboy342

Physics is often counter-intuitive with us finding objects not behaving as our common sense or logic would dictate. This is such an instance.

You arent playing catchup to events which have already occured in the past, somewhere else in the universe, light years away. You expect that because you're rationalising using normal casuality (cause and effect) where you imagine a chain of events leading to what you observe. You therefore think for an event to be observed by you then a chain of events in the past must already have occured. Things dont work that way.

Retrocausality is when events that happen now determine the past which means the effect determines the cause. Until you acquire information by measuring, observing or other means then the past hasnt happened. When you acquire that information the past comes into being to match that infromation.

Retrocasuality article - http://www.kathryncr...ocausality.html

Retrocasuality Youtube video -

The experiments have already been done. Watch the whole of the following video but at 4.55 + notice how the experiment where they remove a screen hiding the particle detector cameras retroactivity erases the path the particles took in the past and replaces it with a new one to comply with them now being observed by the cameras. [media=]

Insane lmao !!!

Erasers don't actually erase anything

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spacecowboy342

The only astronomy that agrees with you is that which is based on classical mechanics. You need to update your knowledge as Newton died a long time ago. Your choose of language is eyebrow raising but unfortunately the youtube video does not contain the fallacies you claim it does. The quantum eraser experiment was accurately depicted and heres another site (Wiki) saying exactly the same thing -

http://en.wikipedia....aser_experiment

If you read the second stage of the experiment it tells you 'the which-path information is erased'.

The speed of light is the speed of light. Events you see in your telescope from 10 LY away happened 10 years ago, This has nothing to do with whether you observed them or not.

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SilentHunter

The speed of light is the speed of light. Events you see in your telescope from 10 LY away happened 10 years ago, This has nothing to do with whether you observed them or not.

As particles are limited by the speed of light you cant collapse the wavefunction of something 10 light years away for 10 years. There is no way it can occur before then as no information about it can reach you. Therefore all its possibilities co-exist for 10 years and after that one of them comes into being.

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spacecowboy342

As particles are limited by the speed of light you cant collapse the wavefunction of something 10 light years away for 10 years. There is no way it can occur before then as no information about it can reach you. Therefore all its possibilities co-exist for 10 years and after that one of them comes into being.

The wave function is collapsed by observers there. Why do you suppose your observation is necessary to make something real 10LY away? An entire planet or the proposed event you are observing is not quantum in nature anyway. The biggest quantum event witnessed was in the neighborhood of 800 atoms. Wave functions are collapsed by particles colliding with each other. We have nothing to do with it

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SilentHunter

The wave function is collapsed by observers there. Why do you suppose your observation is necessary to make something real 10LY away? An entire planet or the proposed event you are observing is not quantum in nature anyway. The biggest quantum event witnessed was in the neighborhood of 800 atoms. Wave functions are collapsed by particles colliding with each other. We have nothing to do with it

For a quantum state to collapse it needs to be measured. Because the planet is 10 light years away you can only measure how it was 10 years ago. There is no way you can measure how it was a year ago, a week ago or even a second ago because photons cant travel faster than the speed of light. Therefore its impossible for you or anything else on earth to collapse its present quantum state because no information about its present state is reaching us.

System A - The distant planet, its civilization and inhabitants.

System B - Us on our planet.

As both systems are seperated by 10 light years the present in each system is isolated from each other. Each system is therefore behaving quantum mechanically from the others perspective when it comes to the present moment in time and backwards up to 10 years.

What aliens get up to in System A has nothing to do with collapsing its wavefunction from our perspective because we are a seperate, isolated, system. The only exception would be if both presents were entangled in the systems allowing the quantum teleportation of outcome from one to the other.

Edited by SilentHunter

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spacecowboy342

For a quantum state to collapse it needs to be measured. Because the planet is 10 light years away you can only measure how it was 10 years ago. There is no way you can measure how it was a year ago, a week ago or even a second ago because photons cant travel faster than the speed of light. Therefore its impossible for you or anything else on earth to collapse its present quantum state because no information about its present state is reaching us.

System A - The distant planet, its civilization and inhabitants.

System B - Us on our planet.

As both systems are seperated by 10 light years the present in each system is isolated from each other. Each system is therefore behaving quantum mechanically from the others perspective when it comes to the present moment in time and backwards up to 10 years.

What aliens get up to in System A has nothing to do with collapsing its wavefunction from our perspective because we are a seperate, isolated, system. The only exception would be if both presents were entangled in the systems allowing the quantum teleportation of outcome from one to the other.

This is not correct. A wave form is collapsed whether we see it or not

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SilentHunter

This is not correct. A wave form is collapsed whether we see it or not

Atoms leak very little heat (information) so they nearly always behave quantum mechanically.

Macroscopic objects leak lots of heat (information) so they nearly always arent behaving quantum mechanically.

However.....

Heat (information) leaking from the distant planet cant reach us for 10 years. That means during those 10 years its quantum state is isolated from us. There is in effect a lag of 10 years for quantum collapse.

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Rlyeh

The only astronomy that agrees with you is that which is based on classical mechanics. You need to update your knowledge as Newton died a long time ago. Your choose of language is eyebrow raising but unfortunately the youtube video does not contain the fallacies you claim it does.

And cosmology as it's kind of the study of the origin and fate of the universe.

Odd that you bring up Newton as he has nothing to do with this, and the video in question presents a false dichotomy.

The quantum eraser experiment was accurately depicted and heres another site (Wiki) saying exactly the same thing -

http://en.wikipedia....aser_experiment

If you read the second stage of the experiment it tells you 'the which-path information is erased'.

What does this have to do with stars light years away? Nothing. You don't seem to understand the set up of the experiment involves entangled photons. Besides the argon laser is not affected, no magically popping into existence.

http://grad.physics.sunysb.edu/~amarch/Walborn.pdf

Edited by Rlyeh

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Rlyeh

Heat (information) leaking from the distant planet cant reach us for 10 years. That means during those 10 years its quantum state is isolated from us. There is in effect a lag of 10 years for quantum collapse.

Unless the planet popped into existence exactly 10 years ago, it has already been leaking information ever since it's formation.

This is not correct. A wave form is collapsed whether we see it or not

I don't know, from his moon "experiment" of hiding the moon with the sun it sounds like the wave only collapses if *he* sees it. Edited by Rlyeh

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spacecowboy342

Atoms leak very little heat (information) so they nearly always behave quantum mechanically.

Macroscopic objects leak lots of heat (information) so they nearly always arent behaving quantum mechanically.

However.....

Heat (information) leaking from the distant planet cant reach us for 10 years. That means during those 10 years its quantum state is isolated from us. There is in effect a lag of 10 years for quantum collapse.

Doesn't matter.We don't have to be the observers for wave function to collapse. If a tree falls in a forest and no one witnesses it it does make a sound.

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spacecowboy342

Unless the planet popped into existence exactly 10 years ago, it has already been leaking information ever since it's formation.

I don't know, from his moon "experiment" of hiding the moon with the sun it sounds like the wave only collapses if *he* sees it.

If we all close our eyes do you suppose the moon disappears?

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third_eye

' The map is not the territory ' ~ Alfred Korzybski

Leave the maths to the numbers is what I say ...

~

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sepulchrave

SilentHunter, you don't seem to understand what entanglement implies, and I think you misunderstand the quantum eraser experiment.

Anyway:

This still confuses me. It would seem that from the perspective of an observer on earth watching a FTL ship traveling at 10c for 10 LY and back would observe the trip taking 2 years and watching the ship's clock would observe it moving backwards. Aboard the ship they would observe their clock working normally while if they could observe earth's clock it would appear to be moving backwards. I don't doubt your math but I still don't see how they arrive in earth's past, but it seems time should go backwards for the traveler making him younger. In the twin paradox, traveling at c for 10 LY out and back according to earth's clocks the trip would take twenty years while on the ship no time would have passed so the traveling twin would not have aged while the earth bound twin would be twenty years older. I can't figure why this should be different for FTL. Am I missing something?

I had to think about how to phrase this for a full day... here goes my best attempt:

The issue here is that you are looking at ``travelling'' from the same perspective of ``space-time intervals''.

There is a point in space-time that is 10 light years away in ``space-like distance'' and 1 light year away in ``time-like distance'' (of course ``1 ly in time'' = 1 year); to get there we would have to travel at an FTL speed of 10c.

However I don't think we could do anything once we were there.

Consider the twin scenario you describe where one twin is travelling at a speed of 1c. As you correctly state, time for that twin has stopped. So how does the twin turn around after travelling 10 ly in distance?

In special relativity, the ``time'' that we experience we call proper time. The proper time between any two points that can be connected by a speed-of-light trajectory is 0 - this is why we say ``time stops'' for the twin travelling at 1c.

Another way of saying it is to say that from that twin's perspective, every single point in space in front and behind them is degenerate - it takes exactly 0 time to move between any two points. How, then, can you turn the ship around at a specific point?

With the 10c FTL example, as I understand it, to have the situation make consistent sense from both observer's perspectives (on the planet and on the ship) we require the to ship take off 2 years in the future, travel 10 LY out in -1 y, and travel the 10 LY back in another -1 y to ``arrive'' right now in the present.

(And obviously, yes, this opens the door to all kinds of paradoxes.)

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Rlyeh

If we all close our eyes do you suppose the moon disappears?

Everyone of us could die and the moon wouldn't care. It's been affecting the earth before the first life form arose.
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