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jeem

Genocide by Israel

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jeem

I understand you perfectly Jeem. I have asked you several times a direct question about Israel being allowed to exist as a Jewish state in Palestine and you will not give a clear answer - it's a simple question.

OK then let me make it clear .I support the state Israel only if they abide by law,stop the genocide,give back the occupied land.

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buckskin scout

What solution do you offer, GoSC? If one accepts every point you make and admits every crime, sin, etc... What must be done to bring justice? The nation of Israel has existed for about 66 years. About 7 million souls live, work and call home there on that land. Obviously those people aren't just going away. Let's assume that the Jews of Israel, approximately 80% of the population, are willing to share the tiny piece of land and refrain from new building of settlements. They stop using checkpoints and even bring down the barrier/wall. IF at that time the Palestinians still keep attacking with rockets and begin to use homicide bombs again (IF), then what?

This is a reasonable question and I would appreciate a reasonable answer please.

I ask it because I really think peace is not possible in less than a generation due to the teaching of hatred to the Palestinian children.

This generation's best teachers is the garrison state of Israel. There is no better teacher than that, AT. One just can't destroy the homes, the livelihood, and identity of hundreds of thousands of people and tell them "Get lost ... just go away ... we don't want you." Since when did Jesus ever teach that?

When did Jesus ever teach, that his disciples, "well in preparation for my return, we will need to clear out a bunch of gentiles, make them scarce, and then, and only then, will I return? Because the Jews need to be in the land and re-establish the Mosaic covenent once again a la the covenant of Death" as Paul put it. Wouldn't the covenant of death be in effect a sacrilege against Christ and the whole purpose of his ministry?

What moral right did the foreign powers and Zionism have to impose a Jewish state for Jewish immigrants to Palestine?

Btw, the experts have predicted that 7 million Israelis are going to lose the demographic war to 2 million Arab Israelis. And there are another several million Palestinians living in refugee camps, or have you forgotten them?

You and I have no idea what it is like to sleep on concrete floors under unsanitory conditions and in tents with no running water and electricity, living on international hand-outs, to have our lives continuously arrested with checkpoints for hours even days, to be told you cant commute on roads because you are of a certain ethnic group even though those very same roads would literally save you hours of commuting and miles worth of gasoline, to be treated as diseased lepers by inhospitable hostile settlers who poison your wells and run their open sewer lines through your farmlands yet will live luxuriously upon the hilltops of the West Bank. How would you like to see your loved ones living under these conditions? As a refugee or as a occupied citizen under such a garrison state?

Yes, imposing a Jewish state on a majority indigeneous Palestinian populance incurred destabilization of the Middle East and much suffering and death. The answer is simply this, the Palestinians have the right to exist yet have tolerated 66 years of oppression from the Israel state.

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and then

This generation's best teachers is the garrison state of Israel. There is no better teacher than that, AT. One just can't destroy the homes, the livelihood, and identity of hundreds of thousands of people and tell them "Get lost ... just go away ... we don't want you." Since when did Jesus ever teach that?

When did Jesus ever teach, that his disciples, "well in preparation for my return, we will need to clear out a bunch of gentiles, make them scarce, and then, and only then, will I return? Because the Jews need to be in the land and re-establish the Mosaic covenent once again a la the covenant of Death" as Paul put it. Wouldn't the covenant of death be in effect a sacrilege against Christ and the whole purpose of his ministry?

What moral right did the foreign powers and Zionism have to impose a Jewish state for Jewish immigrants to Palestine?

Btw, the experts have predicted that 7 million Israelis are going to lose the demographic war to 2 million Arab Israelis. And there are another several million Palestinians living in refugee camps, or have you forgotten them?

You and I have no idea what it is like to sleep on concrete floors under unsanitory conditions and in tents with no running water and electricity, living on international hand-outs, to have our lives continuously arrested with checkpoints for hours even days, to be told you cant commute on roads because you are of a certain ethnic group even though those very same roads would literally save you hours of commuting and miles worth of gasoline, to be treated as diseased lepers by inhospitable hostile settlers who poison your wells and run their open sewer lines through your farmlands yet will live luxuriously upon the hilltops of the West Bank. How would you like to see your loved ones living under these conditions? As a refugee or as a occupied citizen under such a garrison state?

Yes, imposing a Jewish state on a majority indigeneous Palestinian populance incurred destabilization of the Middle East and much suffering and death. The answer is simply this, the Palestinians have the right to exist yet have tolerated 66 years of oppression from the Israel state.

Thank you for a straight answer. I respect that you feel very strongly about this just as I do. I think that your expectations are unrealistic and time will show that to be true. I believe Israel will once again trade territory for peace and once again their enemies in Palestine will begin attacking them as soon as they have secured the new territory. According to your feelings about the situation, these Palestinians have a right to behave in this way but their right and their ability to ever have any real peace are going to be incompatible.

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and then

OK then let me make it clear .I support the state Israel only if they abide by law,stop the genocide,give back the occupied land.

So you agree that Israel as a state for the Jews should exist in Palestine - IF they abide by the law and live within the '48 borders? Now let me ask - if, once they move to those '48 borders, the Palestinians keep attacking them and say they want "every inch of Palestine" will you condemn the Palestinians as being unfair?

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RavenHawk

We were doing so good too... the above in bold should have no merit, the 'promise' from god is a belief, and the historical reasons I think have long expired, unless you plan on forfeiting your plot for those who occupied it 2,000 years ago.

We are still doing fine. You need to make sure you read the next sentence. My disclaimer states that this is not the reason for Israel to “have the whole pie” and therefore, no merit. But we still have to acknowledge this as part of the picture. We just can’t ignore it whether one believes or not. One’s belief is just as important whether they are right or not. The outcome will justify the legitimacy of the belief.

I brought up slavery as a counter point to "EC is a long accepted means to simply remove an unwanted population.", which I took as a justification for ethnic cleansing.

It’s not only a justification, it is a mechanism used by civilization.

It now appears that you are justifying slavery in the pre-modern world,

It’s not about, “well everybody does it so it must be ok.”, if that is where you are going?? It’s something natural like trade or war. It doesn’t need me to justify it. But since the Industrial Age, it is something that has become obsolete on a large scale and immoral on the small scale. But indentured servitude still exists at different levels, including self imposed. You can’t look at the slavery of antiquity with today’s sensibilities.

yet isn't the whole theme of 'Jewish suffering' rooted in their days as slaves? (Which current findings are suggesting they weren't)

That is the concept but that isn’t relevant. I wouldn’t go as far as saying its current findings as it is a current working theory. Evidence of an exodus of several millions has not been found. But that doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen for a vastly smaller number. We assume that the entire Jewish culture left Egypt. What if that wasn’t the case? That still doesn’t change the principle behind the Exodus. I am pretty sure that this story tells us about something that happened but exactly what it was may not be what we think we know.

I honestly don't know how to respond to that, you said "I’m not saying that I approve of it", yet the following sentences seem to try and justify the act (slavery).

My acknowledgement of the institution of slavery in antiquity does not mean that I support it in today’s world.

There were forward thinkers then, I believe old Alexander was able to conquer people without making them slaves. I'll stand by this; slavery, like ethnic cleansing, was as unethical/immoral then as it is now.

I don’t know if you want to call them forward thinkers in an ethical way but rather aggressive leaders thinking expediently. Genghis Khan was very much like Alexander. They didn’t need to have slave masters when the threat of death was just as good. It was more out of necessity because they had large mobile armies and couldn’t afford to leave troops behind. And as long as the indigenous accepted the new management then all prospered. The conquered peoples had a degree of freedom. But slavery as well as EC was ethical and moral back then. If you were a King and you needed something built, you got slaves. If you didn’t like a certain population where it was, you moved it. It was good being King. The King was the ethical and moral authority.

I agree with you that it was an unfair plan for both. But your elaboration of what land is, I think is looking through rose colored glasses. (I can't watch your video at the moment, but I am a fan of Stossel.)

Hardly rose colored glasses. Again, it is a fact of history. Land (and property) is where prosperity emanates from. That is just a hard cold fact of life.

This 'tie' with the land, sounds a lot like something the British, and later Americans, would have used to justify pushing Native Americans off their land, and onto reservations.

That is correct. But it wasn’t just something the British or Americans did. Every nation on this planet exists because somewhere in their history, somebody took, captured, controlled land. There is always somebody that can use the land better and if they have the means to take it, they will. The Native American was a militarily defeated peoples. They underutilized the land. The European Americans could use the land better. In the long run, absorbing the Native American into our culture has etched out a niche for them and a spiritual awareness for all of us. Sort of like whom the Martians ended up being in the Martian Chronicles.

Because one will profit off the land, and the other just uses it as a settlement, we should award it to the former?

Not quite. The Indians had a concept of land ownership too, but they underutilized it. But don’t think that EC was only a European concept. Indians did the same thing to other tribes. I think that the Kiowas were one such tribe (from what I know of their origins) that were chased off. Yes, I met N Scott Momaday years ago.

As far as Palestinians not building since the Partition plan, I liken it to someone stepping on your throat, but then telling everyone else "he likes it, or he would say he doesn't".

That, I think, is a bad analogy. Since the Palestinians were squatters in the first place. They first stepped on the rightful land owner’s throat. And just because the rightful land owner was incapable or unwilling to remove the squatter, these tribes figured it was ok to steal from the land owner.

"It is a competition between two people for the right of the land and there can only be one winner" This competition only started in the last century because of the world trying to instill 'fairness',

This is true, The British gave up in trying to find the rightful owners. But the genie is out of the bottle. The path is set. This is what happens when a third party (UN) tries to impose ‘fairness’. In the end ‘fairness’ only causes more misery. This is “The Tragedy of the Commons”.

the biggest problem was that who determined what was fair or not only had the Jews fairness in mind.

Hardly. They wished Israel was not even in the picture. Everything has been geared to be anti Israel. Only the efforts of those like David Ben Gurion and Golda Meir did their diplomatic prowess pay off.

The several opportunities for side by side statehood is null when we both have agreed that the original Partition Plan was unfair for both, and we both agree with at least one of the reasons why; "No nation can exist in 3 separate, non continuous pieces"

Not necessarily. There were other possible solutions. Maybe they weren’t any better but they were there. In the very early days, Jew and Arab did live in relative peace with each other. It’s well known that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was anti Semitic and was the source of agitation. He would never allow peace to last.

I also don't see the that this not being able to live 'side by side' as solely the fault of Palestinians. For a long time, the thought in America was that the 'savage' Natives couldn't live side by side with the 'upright' white man. Of course we don't think that was the fault of the Natives today, it was the fault of racist white men from Europe treating them as sub humans. They were nomadic, didn't wear the European style of clothes, had 'weird' rituals, smoked, etc.

Agreed. It wasn’t the sole fault of the Palestinian. It takes two to dance. But it was heavily influenced by Mohammad Amin al-Husayni. And it wasn’t any of that racial crap. Their own Muslim brothers treat them as subhuman.

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Yamato

"A mechanism used by civilization" is a justification. That isn't a mechanism used by anyone anymore except for the terrorist state of Israel.

Now they're "squatters" which is another Zionist fantasy to justify their evil ethnic cleansing.

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RavenHawk

The Israelites always shared the land with its neighboring tribes.

I’ve already answered this to some degree but it doesn’t hurt to repeat it. They didn’t always but they tried. And they would have if it wasn’t for the actions of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni. He shared Hitler’s ideal of the “Final Solution”.

According to the Scriptures, Israelites had an hegemony over that land for approximately 300 years that is from King David to the Divided Kingdoms.

300 years way back in 1000 BCE - 700 BCE, for Crissakes! That was over 3000 years ago! Geezus!

For a Jew that is very powerful in their faith. But that isn’t enough to solidify the claim. Please read the entire post, then you won’t stick your foot in your mouth. But where else would the Jew have a Homeland? That is the most logical place. And the opportunity presented itself when the land became unorganized territory in the 1920s. It was a Homeland made to order.

Can you imagine if the Greeks approached the United Nations and stated they wanted Constantinople back or the Irish approached the the UN and stated they wanted France back?

Yes, I can but why go to the UN? Just do it and see what happens if the claim is worthy and legitimate. More than likely they won’t get too far. But if there was a war and Turkey was the loser, then Greece could petition the winner for Constantinople. Or if the winner declared the region as unorganized territory, it would open it up to basically free colonization and settlement. Who knows, Greece could find a rival or two vying for the same land, and the same with Ireland claiming France. For some reason, we think that boundaries are static. They are not. If you are an adult then in your lifetime you have seen boundaries change many times. The partition of India, the fall of Yugoslavia, the collapse of the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, Africa, Ottoman Empire, Poland, Germany, even the United States. Some changes weren’t very violent if at all and others have been very violent. Change happens. Someone (I don’t know who it was) had done research and estimated that of the last 3500 years of recorded history, only about 6 days went conflict free globe wide. I’m assuming that they plugged in the begin and end dates of wars and revolutions into a computer to come up with that answer.

Its the same principle. However, in light of the 20th Century, dispossession is unheardof under the Geneva Conventions.

Unheard of? I think you need to study 20th Century history a little more. Dispossession happens all the time. With 7 billion people on this planet, you can’t help but have it happen. You can’t make everyone happy and content. In this country it is called Imminent Domain. You have to have the will to enforce the Conventions. The League of Nations were a failure with the benchmark example of Haile Selassie’s words falling on deaf ears. "God and history will remember your judgment." The League’s replacement is no better. It has been incapable and unwilling to use its teeth to stop conflict. Because the only way to stop conflict in the first place is to be committed to using irresistible force. What I call the Gort Policy. And now, it puts nations with a long history of human rights violations as chair of human rights committees. Observing the Conventions are a luxury afforded to the combatants involved in any given conflict and not in the realm of those on the sidelines. You simply cannot legislate war and you shouldn’t even try. “War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.

And it does not matter, genetics have traced the Palestinians back to before the Jewish hegemony and geneticists have concluded the Palestinians have Israelite ancestry too.

They don’t have Israeli ancestry. They are both of Semite ancestry. Some Arabs claim ancestry through Joktan and others through Ishmael. But it is a little more than just genetics. Jews say the Covenant with GOD is through Isaac and the Muslims say the Covenant is through Ishmael. Is it one or the other or both? I would say that the solution to the Palestinian issue is in that. But two things need to happen. The Palestinian has to renounce their intent to destroy Israel and become fiercely loyal Israelis. And the Jews need to give the Palestinian full first class citizenship. However, under Islamic Law, that is not allowed.

EDIT: Lemme make myself clearer, the Israelites hegemony over Palestine lasted 300 years approximately 3000 years ago. And they didn't even have self-rule for the entirety of that 300 years either being ruled by other neighboring powers during its apostate decline.

And? Your point? Hegemony and self rule in this case is not as important as the fact that for about 1500 years (2000 years ago), they were in the land. After the Jewish Diaspora and destruction of the culture, the Romans called it Syria Palaestina. The populations that filled the land were transient. Palestine was a place to go to but not stay. After ancient Israel, the region has never seen the same level of culture until modern Israel. 19th Century Palestine was indeed beautiful and agrarian, a backwater full of peasants and shepherds. Many places like the al-Aqsa mosque were neglected. But Modern Israel has brought new life to the desert. It is modern and an economic power. It is no longer that backwater where people went to disappear.

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RavenHawk

You are so thoroughly indoctrinated with myths dude.

I’d look in the mirror if I were you.

The Palestinians were the natural inhabitants of the land, get over it.

The Palestinian are immigrants, wanderers, shepherds up from Yemen and Saudi Arabia as well as Syrians that were displaced by Kurds.

90-95% of Palestine was their's under Mandate policy. It was Britain that broke the Mandate policy by incorporating their Balfour Declaration which defied Mandate Policy

Maybe 90-95% of Palestinians didn’t have proper deeds. If that much of it belonged to them then why did the Palestinians seek to put a stop to Jews legally buying land from the rightful land owners in 1936?

The UN gave 56% of Palestine to the Zionists. And it was the most fertile land. The best land.

The UN didn’t really *GIVE* the land to the Jews. All the partition plans took into consideration where the majority of each lived. Jews had been buying up all the good land. Why couldn’t the Palestinian do the same? That implies that the Palestinians didn’t own the land in the first place. But with that said, isn’t about half of the Jewish land, the Negev? Whose bright idea was it to give the desert to the Jews?

Here is a blog loaded with quotes that population transfer was part of the Zionist agenda long, long before Israel became a state:

And? One of the first orders of business for setting up a new nation is to remove unwanted populations. Did I not mention that this is something that happens all the time? This is how civilization moves on. In general, ethnic cleansing is not a crime. Not all cultures are meant to evolve. After reading through your 13 points other than the pro Palestinian propaganda, there is no evidence of any crime. There is no genocide. There is concern for human life but the Palestinian is not wanted. Many of these Zionist leaders knew Islamic Doctrine. They also knew that Muslims cannot allow the Jew to live as equals in the land. The Jews must live as Dhimmi. That means less than 5% of the total population. That also means relinquishing the Jew’s right to self defense. That is what makes the Palestinian unwanted. Everything here is just the voice of prudence and wisdom.

The root cause of the Israel-Palestine conflict lays squarely at the feet of Islamic Doctrine. Dhimmitude is how Muslims enjoy good relations with Jews throughout the Arab world.

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RavenHawk

"A mechanism used by civilization" is a justification. That isn't a mechanism used by anyone anymore except for the terrorist state of Israel.

Jordan used it. Lebanon is using it. China is using it. Serbs, Hutus, Sudanese Muslims used genocide as an extreme form of EC. The list is really endless. You just exhibit your hatred of Israel and anyone that doesn’t agree with you. That is all you are doing.

Now they're "squatters" which is another Zionist fantasy to justify their evil ethnic cleansing.

If they were not squatters, then who did the Jews purchase their land from? You don’t have to answer. You wouldn’t give an honest answer anyway.

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jeem

So you agree that Israel as a state for the Jews should exist in Palestine - IF they abide by the law and live within the '48 borders? Now let me ask - if, once they move to those '48 borders, the Palestinians keep attacking them and say they want "every inch of Palestine" will you condemn the Palestinians as being unfair?

I agree because many Jews has settled their and they have no other place to go. Palestinian won't attack unless someone make them to attack.You are asking these because you are so biased against Muslims that you are not ready to accept their goodwill and submissive nature.

Edited by jeem

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jeem

.The Palestinian are immigrants, wanderers, shepherds up from Yemen and Saudi Arabia as well as Syrians that were displaced by Kurds.

Israelis are oppressor,illegal land taker up from Europe.

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third_eye

I'd look in the mirror if I were you.

~snip

The root cause of the Israel-Palestine conflict lays squarely at the feet of Islamic Doctrine. Dhimmitude is how Muslims enjoy good relations with Jews throughout the Arab world.

As an evidence of the injustice and intolerance which has characterized the attitude of Christians toward the great prophet Mohammed, and to prove how unfortunate is their error in attributing hatred and cruelty to him in his dealings with the followers of the Nazarene, I wish, for the sake of truth and Christian enlightenment, to quote Mohammed's words, his valid oath and covenant, concerning them.

This oath, entrusted by Mohammed to his Caliphs, is an expression of his authoritative command to them as to their attitude toward the followers of Christ throughout the whole world. The oath referred to was issued by the prophet Mohammed to the Christian Monks of Saint Catherine at Mount Sinai. A copy of it was translated into Turkish, while the original is still preserved in the treasury of the

Sultan in Constantinople. This same Turkish copy was translated into Arabic by Naufal Effendi Naufal, a Christian of Tripoli, Syria; which translation is recorded in a book written by him and known as Sunnajat-ut-tarab. The oath is as follows:

"This is a letter which was issued by Mohammed, Ibn Abdullah, the Messenger, the Prophet, the faithful, who is sent to all the people as a trust on the part of God to all His creatures, that they may have no plea against God hereafter. --Verily God is the Mighty, the Wise. This letter is directed to the embracers of Islam, as a Covenant given to the followers of Nazarene in the East and West, the far and the near, the Arabs and foreigners, the known and the unknown.

"This letter contains the oath given unto them, an he who disobeys that which is therein, will considered a disobeyor and a transgressor to that whereunto he is commanded. He will be regarded as one who has corrupted the oath of God, disbelieved His Testament, rejected His Authority, despised His Religion, and made himself deserving of His Curse, whether he is Sultan or any other believer of Islam.

The Oath of the Prophet Mohammed to the Followers of the Nazarene

by Muhammad and Ali ibn 'Abu-Talib

translated by Anton Haddad.

New York: Board of Counsel, 1902

The Achtiname of Muhammad, also known as the Covenant or (Holy) Testament (Testamentum) of the Prophet Muhammad, is a document or ahdname which is a charter or writ ratified by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad granting protection and other privileges to the monks of Saint Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai. It is sealed with an imprint representing Muhammad's hand.[1]

....

History

According to the monks' tradition, Muhammad frequented the monastery and had great relationships and discussions with the Sinai fathers.[2] The document claims that the Prophet (570-632) had personally granted by charter in the second year of the Hegira, corresponding to AD 626, the rights and privileges to all Christians "far and near". It consists of several clauses on such topics as the protection of Christians living under Islamic rule as well as pilgrims on their way to monasteries, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service and taxes, and the right to protection in war.

You make enemies of one and then you curse and demonise them for facing you as an opponent ... you need to believe in monsters so that monsters such as yourself is allowed free reign on this world ....

  • ancient saying in China

~

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and then

  • ancient saying in China

~

You know, we all have to decide what is right in our own conscience and worldview. The best we can do is try to respect each other though it is difficult at times. I support the people of Israel - not because they are saints or superior in any way to other human beings. I support their continued existence in their homeland because I believe my Creator instructed me to do so. I think that if their enemies gave them a chance to coexist peacefully the world would indeed be peaceful again. But I also think this will never happen before Christ returns because mankind is of a fallen nature and we simply cannot find our way - THIS conflict is the greatest example of that truth that I can imagine. It WILL end some day and justice WILL be put in place - but it won't happen due to the efforts of any political person. It will appear to happen that way briefly, just before the greatest time of trouble the world has ever known.

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Yamato

Jordan used it. Lebanon is using it. China is using it. Serbs, Hutus, Sudanese Muslims used genocide as an extreme form of EC. The list is really endless. You just exhibit your hatred of Israel and anyone that doesn't agree with you. That is all you are doing.

If they were not squatters, then who did the Jews purchase their land from? You don't have to answer. You wouldn't give an honest answer anyway.

Ahh more Zionist smoke and mirrors, insulting me and getting away with it, while trying to goad me into any number of random changes of subject!

Am I paying for Lebanon? Do I want to pay for Lebanon? If I got more of my own money back, is that what I'm going to prioritize in my life? Paying for nonsense in Lebanon or Israel? Does everything I value as an American tell me to go fund ethnic cleansing half the world away? It does you, obviously.

I deplore the heinous evil policies that you support no matter who does them. I don't give a dime or a kind word to any of it. No other sins of the world excuse your statist insistence on spending my money on yours. American citizens have no legal duty to pay for foreign countries. Your umbilical cord to Egypt, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, et al needs to be severed.

Based on recent events, it would appear the cracks in your deluded welfare state are forming and we can scour your "Socialism" out of the system.

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Yamato

If they were not squatters, then who did the Jews purchase their land from? You don't have to answer. You wouldn't give an honest answer anyway.

If you don't know the answer to your own question, then you can't claim they're squatters. You made the stupid claim here. You back it up with evidence; not more wordy Zionist BS.

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Dark_Grey

I support their continued existence in their homeland because I believe my Creator instructed me to do so.

I hope your creator didn't instruct you through a book written by the people you were instructed to support

Edit -- they're, their and there.

Edited by Dark_Grey
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and then

I hope your creator didn't instruct you through a book written by the people you were instructed to support

Edit -- they're, their and there.

Actually, He did. And if that means you think I'm foolish, I'm okay with that DG.

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Dark_Grey

Actually, He did. And if that means you think I'm foolish, I'm okay with that DG.

I don't think your foolish. Quite the opposite: I consider you to be a pretty intelligent guy, AT. You (usually,) put a good deal of thoughts behind your posts and I don't think the forum would be the same without you, regardless of what your beliefs are :tu:

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third_eye

You know, we all have to decide what is right in our own conscience and worldview. The best we can do is try to respect each other though it is difficult at times. I support the people of Israel - not because they are saints or superior in any way to other human beings. I support their continued existence in their homeland because I believe my Creator instructed me to do so. I think that if their enemies gave them a chance to coexist peacefully the world would indeed be peaceful again. But I also think this will never happen before Christ returns because mankind is of a fallen nature and we simply cannot find our way - THIS conflict is the greatest example of that truth that I can imagine. It WILL end some day and justice WILL be put in place - but it won't happen due to the efforts of any political person. It will appear to happen that way briefly, just before the greatest time of trouble the world has ever known.

That's the thing man ... I don't believe JC would or does condone nor did JC 'instruct' anything near what is seen to be the conduct of the Zionists there now ... JC returning or not is besides the point, we do the best we can I understand ... what I don't understand is why you wanna drag JC into any of this ... regardless of your belief of his affection for Israel, and no man ... just cause you believe does not in any way makes it the 'truth'

Throughout history Christians have at times twisted scripture to justify violence: for the Crusades, for Anti-Semitism, and for slavery. One example is Thorten Stringfellow's treatise on slavery. Too often the church has been slow to respond to these biblical distortions with disastrous results.

Today Christian Zionists - particularly those with dispensationalist leanings - are at it again. Although their motives are couched in terms of compassion toward the Jewish people based on a literal reading of scripture the political agenda of territorial expansion advocated by Christian Zionists has given rise to injustice against Palestinians and added fuel to the fire of conflict in the Middle East. For some time, individuals, and theologians have spoken out against Christian Zionism. In the past few years, whole church bodies are adding their official voices to the distortions and injustices perpetuated by Christian Zionism.

  • Christians committed to biblical Justice link

Christian Zionism: The New Heresy that Undermines Middle East Peace

Revd Dr Stephen Sizer

Thursday, 01 August 2013 07:00

.... In 2006, I drafted what became known as the Jerusalem Declaration on Christian Zionism signed by four of the Heads of Churches in Jerusalem: His Beatitude Patriarch Michel Sabbah, Latin Patriarch, Jerusalem; Archbishop Swerios Malki Mourad, Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate, Jerusalem; Bishop Riah Abu El-Assal, Episcopal Church of Jerusalem and the Middle East; and Bishop Munib Younan, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land. In it they insisted:

"We categorically reject Christian Zionist doctrines as a false teaching that corrupts the biblical message of love, justice and reconciliation.

We further reject the contemporary alliance of Christian Zionist leaders and organisations with elements in the governments of Israel and the United States that are presently imposing their unilateral pre-emptive borders and domination over Palestine. This inevitably leads to unending cycles of violence that undermine the security of all peoples of the Middle East and the rest of world.

We reject the teachings of Christian Zionism that facilitate and support these policies as they advance racial exclusivity and perpetual war rather than the gospel of universal love, redemption and reconciliation taught by Jesus Christ. Rather than condemn the world to the doom of Armageddon we call upon everyone to liberate themselves from ideologies of militarism and occupation. Instead, let them pursue the healing of the nations!

We call upon Christians in Churches on every continent to pray for the Palestinian and Israeli people, both of whom are suffering as victims of occupation and militarism. These discriminative actions are turning Palestine into impoverished ghettos surrounded by exclusive Israeli settlements. The establishment of the illegal settlements and the construction of the Separation Wall on confiscated Palestinian land undermines the viability of a Palestinian state and peace and security in the entire region."

  • Middle East MOnitor link

The patriarchs concluded:

“God demands that justice be done. No enduring peace, security or reconciliation is possible without the foundation of justice. The demands of justice will not disappear. The struggle for justice must be pursued diligently and persistently but non-violently.” The prophet Micah asks, “What does the Lord require of you, to act justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” (Micah 6:8).

  • INformation Clearing House link

Christian Zionism

Christian Zionism is based on God's covenant with Abraham from Genesis of the Old Testament of the Bible. To read about the early Christian Zionists, click here.

[/url]Jewish Zionism

Jewish Zionism was not based on Scripture. The early Jewish Zionists were reacting to the fierce anti-semitism that was rampant throughout Europe. By the late nineteen thirties, when millions of Jews were desperately trying to get out of Europe, no country would take in large numbers of Jewish refugees. Only one country offered -- the Dominican Republic, but it, too, fell far short of its promise. To read more about early Jewish Zionism, click here.

~

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and then

I don't think your foolish. Quite the opposite: I consider you to be a pretty intelligent guy, AT. You (usually,) put a good deal of thoughts behind your posts and I don't think the forum would be the same without you, regardless of what your beliefs are :tu:

I appreciate that Dg - I feel the same about you.
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and then

That's the thing man ... I don't believe JC would or does condone nor did JC 'instruct' anything near what is seen to be the conduct of the Zionists there now ... JC returning or not is besides the point, we do the best we can I understand ... what I don't understand is why you wanna drag JC into any of this ... regardless of your belief of his affection for Israel, and no man ... just cause you believe does not in any way makes it the 'truth'

  • Christians committed to biblical Justice link

  • Middle East MOnitor link

  • INformation Clearing House link

  • Christian Zionism on Theocracy watch org link

~

The thing you seem to miss here is that I fully believe the Lord will judge each according to his acts. He says so in his word. No Jew who refuses to acknowledge him as Lord will escape the punishment (whatever that is) that every other soul will suffer. I do not lust for anyone's blood, I simply speak of what I believe. I do not deify Jews. I do not uphold them as individuals who commit crimes. I support the people of Israel as a whole. I believe that ALL the land was given to Israel and his descendents but I know that the modern world mostly rejects this. I think that may be part of God's plan to show his sovereignty when the time comes.

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jeem

The thing you seem to miss here is that I fully believe the Lord will judge each according to his acts. He says so in his word. No Jew who refuses to acknowledge him as Lord will escape the punishment (whatever that is) that every other soul will suffer. I do not lust for anyone's blood, I simply speak of what I believe. I do not deify Jews. I do not uphold them as individuals who commit crimes. I support the people of Israel as a whole. I believe that ALL the land was given to Israel and his descendents but I know that the modern world mostly rejects this. I think that may be part of God's plan to show his sovereignty when the time comes.

Let me guess you support Israel because you believe that it was decided by god.

Every soul will suffer for their deeds its a belief of Islam and as far as I know no christian will suffer or face punishment by god because Jesus had taken their punishment

Edited by jeem

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Let me guess you support Israel because you believe that it was decided by god.

Every soul will suffer for their deeds its a belief of Islam and as far as I know no christian will suffer or face punishment by god because Jesus had taken their punishment

This is true jeem. Every human on earth has their sins paid for by the blood of Christ but only those who accept him for who he said he is will be forgiven. I don't pretend to understand why it is this way but I do believe it is true. And yes this is the reason I support the people of Israel. Those who do wrong to Muslims will be punished just as Muslims who do wrong will be punished. We each have an obligation to love other human beings and if we fail in that we will be held accountable.
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jeem

This is true jeem. Every human on earth has their sins paid for by the blood of Christ but only those who accept him for who he said he is will be forgiven. I don't pretend to understand why it is this way but I do believe it is true. And yes this is the reason I support the people of Israel.

I respect your believe.Our prophet Mohammed (Sm) teach us to respect the belief of other people.

Those who do wrong to Muslims will be punished just as Muslims who do wrong will be punished. We each have an obligation to love other human beings and if we fail in that we will be held accountable.

I agree with you in this point. In our religion we are ordered to protest against evil and oppression if we are able to protest.Otherwise we will be held guilty.

Edited by jeem
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third_eye

~ snip

I think that may be part of God's plan to show his sovereignty when the time comes.

~snip

THat's the thing ... 'may be' ... the learned and leaders of the faith you believe in do not agree ... and the sad thing is you drag JC's good name through all of this ...

GOd does not need to 'show' anything ... YWYH ... JC ... Allah SWT .... The Heavenly Emperors ... Zeus .... Jupiter ...

As a believer you just need to believe ... and not be dictating what a divinity can, should or must do ... which is 'blasphemous'

~

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