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jeem

Genocide by Israel

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GoldenWolf

Stop putting words in my mouth. I have asked for NO ONE to be killed. I speak of what is written. The fact that you dismiss God out of hand does not make you right - it just makes you intransigent as well. In case you hadn't noticed, the world is never going to get any better because the same people who have been trying to "make it a better world" are the ones creating the problems. The issue is that many different attitudes exist about how to define "better world". I think the thing that upsets most about eschatology is that they DO realize the end is coming and it scares them badly. They do not want to change - even if it means continued suffering for every other soul on the planet. Mankind is more than capable of wiping itself from the face of the planet - and WILL do so unless Christ returns to stop it. I know this because HE SAID SO.

ETA: If you got your wish (and you may, soon) and Israel was cut off from US support then what kind of resolution to their conflict would you expect? Do you think the Palestinians would make peace? Or do you think they would attempt to attack and annihilate Israel? Can you imagine how THAT little adventure would turn out?

I never even mentioned anything about god, you're using a straw man argument. I was talking about how if anyone tried to bring peace to the region they would automatically be labeled The Anti-Christ by 2 billion christians. Anyone would be too scared to even try. Israel is stuck in a permanent loop of destruction thanks to christianity.

The weak [cultures] die off to keep the entire gene pool healthy.

Just a quick question, do you believe that philosophy is the only correct answer?

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and then

I never even mentioned anything about god, you're using a straw man argument. I was talking about how if anyone tried to bring peace to the region they would automatically be labeled The Anti-Christ by 2 billion christians. Anyone would be too scared to even try. Israel is stuck in a permanent loop of destruction thanks to christianity.

Just a quick question, do you believe that philosophy is the only correct answer?

If I misunderstood you I apologize sincerely. It is a fact that most Christian evangelicals are certainly looking closely at the region and are very intense in their hope for the coming of our Lord. Many of the current activities in the region are fodder for that intensity. But killing someone they think is the antichrist is a stretch imo. They understand that he cannot be killed.

The other issue of Israel being stuck in a loop brings me back to my earlier question - it sounds as though you would like to see the US disengage from Israel so that things can "take their course" and a resolution be found naturally. I believe that Israel will nuke it's neighbors before it will allow them to over run and destroy them and their children. If you deny that this is the goal of the Palestinians then you aren't paying attention to what they themselves are saying at every opportunity.

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third_eye

~snip

What is happening is more accurately described as Ethnic Cleansing which is how unwanted populations are moved. You don't have to kill off the entire body to disperse the people. This had occurred time and time again in history all over this planet. To take exception to that is to take exception to your own origins. We are all survivors of this event. As I've said before, it is this that keeps the gene pool healthy.

The most merciful and compassionate thing to happen would be for the Palestinian state to never occur. It would be better for the Palestinian people to be absorbed into the neighboring nations.

~snip

I believe that Israel will nuke it's neighbors before it will allow them to over run and destroy them and their children. if you deny that this is the goal of the Palestinians then you aren't paying attention to what they themselves are saying at every opportunity.

Oh holy mother of Jesus and Jesus Christ and merciful Allah and Lord our Sovereign Adonai Jehovah and all that is holy ... Oh how little Adolf is laughing in his grave ...

~

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GoldenWolf

If I misunderstood you I apologize sincerely. It is a fact that most Christian evangelicals are certainly looking closely at the region and are very intense in their hope for the coming of our Lord. Many of the current activities in the region are fodder for that intensity. But killing someone they think is the antichrist is a stretch imo. They understand that he cannot be killed.

The other issue of Israel being stuck in a loop brings me back to my earlier question - it sounds as though you would like to see the US disengage from Israel so that things can "take their course" and a resolution be found naturally. I believe that Israel will nuke it's neighbors before it will allow them to over run and destroy them and their children. If you deny that this is the goal of the Palestinians then you aren't paying attention to what they themselves are saying at every opportunity.

Nope, you underestimate how most humans want to be seen as a hero, even christians. Some might think that so and so is the anti-christ (which they've already labeled thousands and thousands of people as), there are plenty of stupid ones out there who would gladly kill the "Anti-Christ" just for the hope of fame, or to be recognized by "god" as a savior. And contrary to what most of you think, most non-believers in christianity (whether jewish, muslim or atheist) have read a good portion if not all of the new testament, they realize if they where to try and bring peace to the region they could be killed and most certainly be demonized by 99% of the christians on this planet (Nobody wants that amount of infamy).

I could care less what the U.S. does with Israel, the point I am trying to make is that since The U.S. holds their hand, and the U.S. being mostly christian, with the beliefs of christianity, it is impossible for Israel to make peace with anyone they are enemies with.

What Israel would have to do for peace is to cut the cord with the U.S. (The U.S.'s interests in this case really are only about themselves, they use "defending Israel' only as way to garner voters from the christians.) and forsake christianity, it sounds extreme because it is. Only then, and maybe, someone with enough courage might come along and actually succeed in ending this Hatfield-McCoy type feud.

Edited by Mystic Crusader

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and then

Nope, you underestimate how most humans want to be seen as a hero, even christians. Some might think that so and so is the anti-christ (which they've already labeled thousands and thousands of people as), there are plenty of stupid ones out there who would gladly kill the "Anti-Christ" just for the hope of fame, or to be recognized by "god" as a savior. And contrary to what most of you think, most non-believers in christianity (whether jewish, muslim or atheist) have read a good portion if not all of the new testament, they realize if they where to try and bring peace to the region they could be killed and most certainly be demonized by 99% of the christians on this planet (Nobody wants that amount of infamy).

I could care less what the U.S. does with Israel, the point I am trying to make is that since The U.S. holds their hand, and the U.S. being mostly christian, with the beliefs of christianity, it is impossible for Israel to make peace with anyone they are enemies with.

What Israel would have to do for peace is to cut the cord with the U.S. (The U.S.'s interests in this case really are only about themselves, they use "defending Israel' only as way to garner voters from the christians.) and forsake christianity, it sounds extreme because it is. Only then, and maybe, someone with enough courage might come along and actually succeed in ending this Hatfield-McCoy type feud.

So you feel that the greatest obstacle to peace is the fact that Israel is protected by the US. If that was no longer the case they would be forced to make peace? Does that sum it up? I see 2 scenarios potentially unfolding in that circumstance. First, they refuse to try and make peace and a war begins Or, second, they attempt to make peace and the Palestinians see it as weakness and a war begins. No single neighbor of theirs can defeat them conventionally. In fact Israel could probably win against all their neighbors at once if they could end it quickly without need of resupply. But if they find themselves sanctioned and made non grata by most nations that trade with them they could easily reach a place where there existence as a nation is threatened. These people are a generation removed from the survivors of the ovens. They are never going to just give up and fade away. I'm not sure why that concept is so difficult to understand but most folks here actually dispute it - they some sort of disconnect about it. They feel that Israel will at some point just fade away "somehow". It's a very dangerous assumption and one day we are all going to see it blow up on us.

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RavenHawk

Wow in one sentence flat I already know not to listen to a word you say about religion

You never do anyway. That is why I have to repeat myself. But you’ll argue out of ignorance anyway.

because you're now doing the same thing with me you're doing with jeem.

You’ve earned the treatment you get. Jeem hasn’t yet shown himself to be a moron. Just your typical Muslim dodging direct questions.

I was raised Catholic and I never heard a solitary "anti-Semitic" sermon or lesson or remark in the whole of my experience, so don't tell me what my "view" is.

You’ve never heard of Vatican II? Did you hear about the stigma behind Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ”?

“One of the more controversial documents was Nostra Aetate, which stated that the Jews of the time of Christ, taken indiscriminately, and all Jews today are no more responsible for the death of Christ than Christians.” So perhaps you were born after 1965?? But prior to that date all the way back to the early days of the Church, the Jew was considered “The Christ Killer” and lived an outcast life in much of Europe.

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RavenHawk

Just a quick question, do you believe that philosophy is the only correct answer?

Well, Politics and Religion are sub groups of philosophy and I love the study of both, but philosophy only describes the problem. The solution is putting it into practical use. And there can always be multiple correct answers as well as multiple incorrect answers. The key is to recognize the difference.

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Yamato

You never do anyway. That is why I have to repeat myself. But you'll argue out of ignorance anyway.

You've earned the treatment you get. Jeem hasn't yet shown himself to be a moron. Just your typical Muslim dodging direct questions.

You've never heard of Vatican II? Did you hear about the stigma behind Gibson's "Passion of the Christ"?

"One of the more controversial documents was Nostra Aetate, which stated that the Jews of the time of Christ, taken indiscriminately, and all Jews today are no more responsible for the death of Christ than Christians." So perhaps you were born after 1965?? But prior to that date all the way back to the early days of the Church, the Jew was considered "The Christ Killer" and lived an outcast life in much of Europe.

Your pathetic attempt at saying something anti-Catholic like you know anything about Catholics spoke for itself.

Prejudiced mindsets like yours that try so hard with so much word count to smear entire groups of people with the nonsense of one controversial document written by some public figure or bureaucrat is what I'm talking about here. Let me smear your human-hood with all manner of sin from every group you share characteristics with. Why don't I just personally blame you for all the sins throughout history from your skin color, from your ethnicity, from your religious beliefs. What a ridiculous exercise in superiority complex that would be! What pedestal of perfection do you think you sit on that you aren't subject to the same foul scrutiny you impose on others?

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RavenHawk

Your accumulation of the desired 'facts' towards your 'desired' effect .... and only those that are as such ... that is not 'fact' finding ...

Boy, that was a mouthful for you wasn’t it. The desired effect is to seek the truth. If the truth is critical of something, that is not bias against that something. If you have no legitimate, honest answer to my questions then you are just part of the deception. There is a veil over Islamic doctrine. It’s designed that way to confuse those such as yourself.

Just this question alone shows your ignorance ... and begs the reasons for your purpose for such a state of mind ...

It shows no such thing. You asked a very simplistic and vague question. I asked for clarification. And I’ll ask again, how learned does one need to be before they can understand scripture? Is this another question that will go unanswered?

He labeled nothing ... labels did not as yet exist in those days ... and scriptures are not and never 'labeled' ... nothing to sell nor is the the purpose of scriptures as such ...

And you don’t recognize sarcasm. You just don’t realize how much egg you have on your face.

Time and time again on those that where there is a possibility of right and wrong the point has been raised and put up to show you as not only wrong but inaccurate ... you know full well that there is never ONE right or ONE wrong regarding some of the things that you propose .. this is where your deviousness and ignorance fully reigns ... the rest of us do not succumb to such propaganda ... No one has ever explained to you because you neither accept anyone others' views and facts nor is it possible to move you in your bias stance ... not an excuse but fact.

It would be easier to respond if you didn’t babble. You need to be more specific. Are you taking about the op or the ayahs I presented? To either group, you have not shown me wrong or inaccurate. That was one thing I requested for someone to prove to me. Sometimes there is only one right and one wrong. Other times there are many. You need to keep things in context.

You obviously do succumb to the prevailing propaganda. You don’t afford me the same principles you lecture me on. Are not my views one of the many? You need to be able to see both sides of the issue, then you can determine the truth about something. That is what I do. You call me devious, maybe so because I already know the answers to the questions I ask. I still hope to hear a different answer that will reflect the honesty of the belief. I am highly skeptical and usually see through the con job, so I don’t fall for the koolaid.

Look in the mirror ... and don't close your eyes ...

Again, that is a lame excuse. My eyes are open to honesty. I seek an honest man in Islam.

You are stuck in time ... and it is a bad time that you choose to be stuck in ...

That I hadn’t yet heard about this 1500 year old Bible makes me stuck in time??

Ignore ? Coming from you that is priceless ...

Are you deliberately acting dense? You just don’t like me rubbing your nose in it.

Go ahead ... put your money where your mouth is ... not just on the forums ... go ahead and save the world with your version of salvation ... let's see how 'right on the money' you are ...

You have just gone off the deep end. Where was I trying to save the world? Sounds like you got caught in a lie or something so now you’re doubling down with being outrageous.

Attack ? priceless coming from you ... remember the ancient China saying ? You are still reading it wrong ...

No, I don’t think I am reading it wrong. It is quite clear and you are the physical manifestation of it.

Coming from you ... for you ... of you ...

What is this fascinations you have of me? Seems like every other word you utter now is *you*.

Mock you ? You are doing a grand old job yourself .... I hardly have to add to anything other than that which you yourself have done thus far ...

Well, if you could just step back and listen to yourself. I’m not the one making a spectacle of myself. You are incoherent and all I asked for was honesty. I guess I got it. Then you lose it.

You are not unfamiliar with me man ... when do I mock, ever ?

You’re right, you don’t mock. You make poor attempts at trying.

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GoldenWolf

Well, Politics and Religion are sub groups of philosophy and I love the study of both, but philosophy only describes the problem. The solution is putting it into practical use. And there can always be multiple correct answers as well as multiple incorrect answers. The key is to recognize the difference.

The question was about the snip I left you.

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RavenHawk

Your pathetic attempt at saying something anti-Catholic like you know anything about Catholics spoke for itself.

Well then, I guess the joke is on you. I wasn’t saying anything anti Catholic. Just because bad things happened in Catholic history doesn’t mean that I’m anti Catholic. And neither presenting an example mean I’m anti Catholic. You have to realize that facts are facts and you have to deal with them no matter how painful they are.

Prejudiced mindsets like yours that try so hard with so much word count to smear entire groups of people with the nonsense of one controversial document written by some public figure or bureaucrat is what I'm talking about here.

I wouldn’t talk about smearing entire groups (and individuals) if I were you. That’s all you do. And for the only reason that they hold a different view than you.

You hypocrite!!! The nonsense of said document established the reconciliation between Jew and Christian. Do you understand? The public figure or bureaucrat was Cardinal Bea. It was presented in an Ecumenical Council presided by the Pope, voted on and passed by the College of Cardinals. Do you understand what that means? I doubt it. You just smeared your entire faith and its leadership. Good job!

Let me smear your human-hood with all manner of sin from every group you share characteristics with. Why don't I just personally blame you for all the sins throughout history from your skin color, from your ethnicity, from your religious beliefs. What a ridiculous exercise in superiority complex that would be! What pedestal of perfection do you think you sit on that you aren't subject to the same foul scrutiny you impose on others?

You have so much hate in you. You always have to insult or attack someone or group. Your mind is so closed that you can’t understand what is going on around you. Anyone that has a different point of view from you is automatically assaulted.

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RavenHawk

You misinterpret them.

Then don’t just tell me, show me. Don’t hammer me with vagueness and don’t bury me in numbing links. Don’t give me a one sided view for Western/non believer consumption. Put it in context of abrogation.

I think you are well learned in Islam.Despite my little knowledge about Islam I strongly believe I understand the teachings of Islam better than you.

I would tend to agree with that. But I am looking at it from the outside. I also see where you don’t see the full picture either being on the inside. But I also wonder if that isn’t by design? I do the same with my own faith. I am highly skeptical and critical with Christianity. There is much the Church did to control the people throughout history. That is not the basis of Christianity. But there is a difference in Christianity between faith and religion. I don’t see that in Islam. I seek the same difference and honesty in Islam. I simply do not see it.

Our prophet was illiterate so how could he write Qur'an?Qur'an is direct message from Allah

Yes [sigh], I know he was illiterate. You could not tell sarcasm? I responded to a stupid reply. I have a pet peeve against stupidity. And much stupidity has been thrown up in my face.

I aid this is an excuse for your part

No, it is not an excuse on my part. That you seem incapable or unwilling to answer is you making excuses.

Let me guess you are scared to search the truth because it will prove you wrong.

That is a stupid statement. I eagerly search for the truth and where the truth is taking me is very disappointing and predictable.

According to our belief Musa(ah)(I don't know what Jews call him) foretold the coming of Isa(ah)(Christ) and Isa(ah) foretold the coming of the last prophet

Jews and most everyone else call him Moses. I am fascinated with this news item but there are a lot of unknowns that need to be examined. In today’s world, revealing lost or hidden scripture seems to be a common place any more. It creates confusion at this rate. That is not fair. However, and this is a big however, this information has nothing to do with the op and neither does it go toward proving that my understanding of the three Ayahs I presented is wrong. This is a distraction to keep from the truth. This is what I meant by not hitting me with dishonesty.

Stone them to death this punishment is for adultery not for non-believer. Non-believer are free to practice their religion if they agree to be peaceful

That wasn’t the point here. His reply was another distraction. And more sarcasm from me. And who decides what is peaceful? That is very subjective.

He respond because your post may make other people confused.

See, this is you practicing Taqiya. You may not even be aware of it because it is taught from birth (or at sometime shortly after birth) in the way children learn to recite the text of the Quran. It happens in Christianity too. But in an example that Jesus was celibate, more and more Christians are realizing that perhaps he wasn’t. Now this is just an example, please don’t go off on another tangent trying to use this as a distraction. It has nothing to do with the questions I asked.

It is a direct offense to third-eye

How ‘bout third-eyes’ comments being a direct offense to common sense and logic? He is unstable and he exhibited this behavior in his replies.

You see the facts with an intention to prove Islam as a source of violence.That makes you a racist

I don’t need to prove that Islam is a source of violence. That is a given. It is clearly so in its own words. I seek an honest Muslim that can show to me that that is wrong. Is that such a difficult task to do? All I get are dodges, distractions, excuses and attacks instead. Just like calling me racist. That comment there does not do your side credit. Don’t you see how that kind of response supports my view? You don’t prove that I am wrong; you just prove that I am right.

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jeem

Then don't just tell me, show me. Don't hammer me with vagueness and don't bury me in numbing links. Don't give me a one sided view for Western/non believer consumption. Put it in context of abrogation.

I told you context as well as in which situation and why they were revealed.Many ayah was revealed to encourage weak Muslims army to fight against strong enemy.So which seems to call to arm is actually means defense.

I would tend to agree with that. But I am looking at it from the outside. I also see where you don't see the full picture either being on the inside. But I also wonder if that isn't by design? I do the same with my own faith. I am highly skeptical and critical with Christianity. There is much the Church did to control the people throughout history. That is not the basis of Christianity. But there is a difference in Christianity between faith and religion. I don't see that in Islam. I seek the same difference and honesty in Islam. I simply do not see it.

Seeing something from outside don't give you the full understanding.

Yes [sigh], I know he was illiterate. You could not tell sarcasm? I responded to a stupid reply. I have a pet peeve against stupidity. And much stupidity has been thrown up in my face.

Still you said that he wrote Qur'an.He has no institutional education but he was bestowed divine knowledge from Allah which makes him the wisest man of all time.

That is a stupid statement. I eagerly search for the truth and where the truth is taking me is very disappointing and predictable.

I told you the true meaning of Zizya and deny that which proves you really don't wanna search truth

Jews and most everyone else call him Moses. I am fascinated with this news item but there are a lot of unknowns that need to be examined. In today's world, revealing lost or hidden scripture seems to be a common place any more. It creates confusion at this rate. That is not fair. However, and this is a big however, this information has nothing to do with the op and neither does it go toward proving that my understanding of the three Ayahs I presented is wrong. This is a distraction to keep from the truth. This is what I meant by not hitting me with dishonesty.

Thanks for sharing the knowledge

That wasn't the point here. His reply was another distraction. And more sarcasm from me. And who decides what is peaceful? That is very subjective.

But you misinterpret the punishment and tried to prove Islam dangerous for non-Muslim

See, this is you practicing Taqiya. You may not even be aware of it because it is taught from birth (or at sometime shortly after birth) in the way children learn to recite the text of the Quran. It happens in Christianity too. But in an example that Jesus was celibate, more and more Christians are realizing that perhaps he wasn't. Now this is just an example, please don't go off on another tangent trying to use this as a distraction. It has nothing to do with the questions I asked.

Actually I mixed up Taqiya and Tasauf.A Muslim without Taqiya is not a Muslim.Taqiya is not a practice it is a belief.It is fearing Allah.

How 'bout third-eyes' comments being a direct offense to common sense and logic? He is unstable and he exhibited this behavior in his replies.

Actually he was trying to tell the truth

I don't need to prove that Islam is a source of violence. That is a given. It is clearly so in its own words. I seek an honest Muslim that can show to me that that is wrong. Is that such a difficult task to do? All I get are dodges, distractions, excuses and attacks instead. Just like calling me racist. That comment there does not do your side credit. Don't you see how that kind of response supports my view? You don't prove that I am wrong; you just prove that I am right.

An honest Muslim is not necessary to prove you wrong.A wise and honest Muslim can prove you wrong

Edited by jeem
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Yamato

You never do anyway. That is why I have to repeat myself. But you'll argue out of ignorance anyway.

You've earned the treatment you get. Jeem hasn't yet shown himself to be a moron. Just your typical Muslim dodging direct questions.

You've never heard of Vatican II? Did you hear about the stigma behind Gibson's "Passion of the Christ"?

"One of the more controversial documents was Nostra Aetate, which stated that the Jews of the time of Christ, taken indiscriminately, and all Jews today are no more responsible for the death of Christ than Christians." So perhaps you were born after 1965?? But prior to that date all the way back to the early days of the Church, the Jew was considered "The Christ Killer" and lived an outcast life in much of Europe.

Sorry no, what you get from a Mel Gibson movie or ancient history doesn't define Catholicism today. You're obviously no more qualified to tell jeem about his religion. Religion is so much more than these clumps of mud you pick up to throw at people. I could easily throw random dirt clods back at you about things you believe in like Bush Doctrine, but that would be beneath me.

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third_eye

Boy, that was a mouthful for you wasn't it. The desired effect is to seek the truth. If the truth is critical of something, that is not bias against that something. If you have no legitimate, honest answer to my questions then you are just part of the deception. There is a veil over Islamic doctrine. It's designed that way to confuse those such as yourself.

obviously too much for your brain capacity ... your 'desire' is to cloud the facts to make your 'truths more factual ... fact

honest ? you make it very hard to take you seriously with your bigotry ...

It shows no such thing. You asked a very simplistic and vague question. I asked for clarification. And I'll ask again, how learned does one need to be before they can understand scripture? Is this another question that will go unanswered?

Ask again for clarification ... honestly this time ... what was it that you were 'anticipating' that I would say ? I mean 'honestly' ?

And you don't recognize sarcasm. You just don't realize how much egg you have on your face.

nice evasive manouveres ... a bit on the slippery side of lies ... but still nice ... how do you like your 'eggs' ?

~snip

Again, that is a lame excuse. My eyes are open to honesty. I seek an honest man in Islam.

You wouldn't know an honest 'man' even if 'she' walked up and slap you in the face with it ....

You have just gone off the deep end. Where was I trying to save the world? Sounds like you got caught in a lie or something so now you're doubling down with being outrageous.

No, I don't think I am reading it wrong. It is quite clear and you are the physical manifestation of it.

Hehehehehehehe ... ready to burn me on the stake now ? I prefer medium rare ...

What is this fascinations you have of me? Seems like every other word you utter now is *you*.

Makes you feels kinda 'special' don't it bubba ?

Well, if you could just step back and listen to yourself. I'm not the one making a spectacle of myself. You are incoherent and all I asked for was honesty. I guess I got it. Then you lose it.

You're right, you don't mock. You make poor attempts at trying.

~ what Yam said .... ~

:tu:

~

Let's see how honest you are about being honest ... honestly ...

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~ HAve fun soldier ....

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jeem

Ultimately that is where it must go. But that was not my intentions. I was countering how the op title is racist and incorrect. Israel is not committing genocide. But every time I present an argument, the usual suspects chime in and attack because they have no counter and that they have already lost the argument. It’s racist because if you are going to be critical of Israel, you have to be equally critical of Islam. But the Islamic love fest around here is just too thick to hold a reasonable and rational debate.

You are correct.Criticize Islam you are a good christian and accuse Israel for crime you are anti-Semitic(In case of Muslims I think the appropriate word is terrorist).

Kill Muslims help Zionist killing Muslims you are actually doing your holy ,divine duty

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third_eye

Ahhhh ... the irony of ironies ... truth and muddled facts do look so fancy in the realm of sarcasm ~ the sad thing is a lot of people refuse to see it so much they actually don't see it ... willful blindness ... and claims to be seekers of truth ... :lol:

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jeem

For my part I have utterly rejected that any genocide has occurred. You have absolutely no proof of such a thing. The Hutus and Tutsis, the Jews, the Armenians - THOSE were genocides. The definition of genocide that you use is so broad it practically gets down to insulting your neighbor enough to make him move away. It's ridiculous jeem.

What is happening in Palestine is 2 groups of people fighting each other for land they both feel is theirs by divine right. It will not really end until Christ returns to settle it. There will be ONE exception. When you see a peace made that actually is observed then mark it's beginning on your calendar.

Actually what is happen in Palestine is two groups are fighting.One group heavily outgunned are being oppressed by the other group.Taking support from a superpower(that superpower claims to be the protector of human rights and holder of democracy ) slowly wiping out the other group.

Edited by jeem
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jeem

Even the UN partition plan was unfair.It gave 55% of Palestinian land to the foreign Zionist who were minority(16%) in that region and at that time they own 6% land.

Not to mention it was imposed on Palestinian people against their will

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and then

Even the UN partition plan was unfair.It gave 55% of Palestinian land to the foreign Zionist who were minority(16%) in that region and at that time they own 6% land.

Not to mention it was imposed on Palestinian people against their will

This is true. It happened 65 years ago. It has happened MANY times over the millennia - it is NOTHING NEW. Countries have been erased and created with the stroke of a pen on a map since human governments existed. Conquered peoples - even on land they actually OWNED - lose their land when they are defeated or their protectors are defeated in war. Only since the UN was formed has this changed and even then it was the UN that enforced THIS deal. The Palestinians never had a country or government or currency or any evidence that they were anything except simply dwelling in the land called Palestine. Egypt, Jordan and Syria STILL do not recognize them to hold professional positions or become citizens AFAIK. They will continue to fight forever because it is what they DO. If Israel were gone tomorrow they would begin fighting their neighbors - they do not know peace and have no use for it - never really have. Because they will not attempt to live on part of the land they will someday lose all of it and THAT will be justice.

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RavenHawk

I told you context as well as in which situation and why they were revealed.Many ayah was revealed to encourage weak Muslims army to fight against strong enemy.So which seems to call to arm is actually means defense.

Yes, I know that it is a means of encouragement and that still doesn’t prove me wrong. That’s not the entire meaning. If anything that supports my claim. After more consideration, I have to say that you do answer my question here and that answer does support my claim.

But you’re playing with the syntax here. “call to arms” can still mean “defense”. As I pointed out, encouragement to the weak to fight on defense is not that much different than a call to arms to the strong to dominate. What is important is doing the will of Allah. Being in a weak position is just an obstacle to overcome to reach a point of domination. And that is what the Quran was designed for. The Quran is a great book on the tactics of domination. This nation’s foreign policy should follow the Quran as a military and diplomatic tool. That in itself is proof that an illiterate merchant could never have *wrote* it.

Seeing something from outside don't give you the full understanding.

That was part of another set of points I was making. But by the same token, if you are on the inside, one can be too close to an issue and not recognize the truth of something. And sometimes only being on the outside can one see the whole picture. But this aspect is not the main issue of concern.

Still you said that he wrote Qur'an.He has no institutional education but he was bestowed divine knowledge from Allah which makes him the wisest man of all time.

There may be an impreciseness of language here that you shouldn’t get too hung up on. For purposes of this forum (unless we absolutely need to say otherwise), “wrote” means “authored” or “revealed to”. Mohammed is responsible for bringing the Quran to the world. In other words, the actual meaning to this has no meaning to the primary point.

Moses is said to have written the Pentateuch, but in reality, there were probably at least 4 different writers and Moses just ended up being an editor. All the books of the Bible are considered to be divinely inspired but credit is given to the individual that received it as its author.

The attempts to go off focus on this have been rampant. People will do just about anything to defend Islam.

I told you the true meaning of Zizya and deny that which proves you really don't wanna search truth

Yes you did and I agree with you because I know the meaning of Zizya. I don’t deny that. Actually, wasn’t it the Zakat? I could have used a better word but I was making a supporting point. This is not the answer or the question I seek. It is a distraction.

But you misinterpret the punishment and tried to prove Islam dangerous for non-Muslim

Here is where not being Muslim is a hindrance and my level of understanding is challenged. But by the same token, the form of punishment is not what is of importance, just the fact that there is punishment to be levied on the non believer or the one outside of the Ummah. This is the KEY issue. The Quran does state very clearly that it is dangerous for non Muslims. The three ayahs of my claim either imply it or state it. Perhaps what is needed is a sentence by sentence breakdown of those three ayahs??

Actually I mixed up Taqiya and Tasauf.A Muslim without Taqiya is not a Muslim.Taqiya is not a practice it is a belief.It is fearing Allah.

I know Taqiya can also mean “cap” as in something to wear on your head. Perhaps that’s where the saying “keep it under your hat” comes from?? But the meaning that I am referring to is “dissimulation”. In Islam, it is obligatory to lie under duress to defend one’s religious beliefs. That is a practice and very common. It is in full practice on forums like this. And that is what this thread has turned out to be. I was fine going onto a tangent as long as I could wrap it back to the op. But with all the dissimulation, I can’t seem to do that.

Actually he was trying to tell the truth

No, he was on a rant because I don’t quaff the koolaid. I guess he thinks that the only way to be critical of something is to hold a crusade against it. I was reviewing my past posts in this thread and I didn’t realize all the excellent points that I made that went uncommented on. I think that on a subconscious level, this must be driving Islamic apologists crazy. Perhaps that’s the reason for Third-eye’s rants?

An honest Muslim is not necessary to prove you wrong.A wise and honest Muslim can prove you wrong

And I still haven’t seen one. And I’m not trying to be insulting to you, but you are not that forthcoming in answering. That presents an air of dishonesty. How do you expect anyone to believe you even when you do say something truthful on minor issues? What you are answering are all the wrong questions (all the unimportant answers that you know you can be honest about, but yet not having to answer my main question), so please don’t think you’ve been answering me. You appear to be more in the dismissive mode. But I’m not going to let you get away with it that easily. That’ll probably make third eye really flake out.

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RavenHawk

Sorry no, what you get from a Mel Gibson movie or ancient history doesn't define Catholicism today.

I didn’t know the 1960s and Vatican II were ancient history. But Nostra Aetate does indeed define Catholicism today and especially within the personality of Pope Francis. And as you’ve shown, you have no idea what Gibson’s movie has to do with this. His movie is simply an example of what Vatican II meant. Gibson was criticized for portraying Jews in poor stereotype as Christ killers. I believe that there was some question as to whether he understood that The Jews today cannot beheld responsible. Somehow I think you and Mel probably see eye to eye on that.

You're obviously no more qualified to tell jeem about his religion. Religion is so much more than these clumps of mud you pick up to throw at people.

That is the typical ignorant statement coming from the king of mud throwing. Yes, religion is much more than a clump of mud. That is what I am trying to get at. And I wouldn’t claim to tell him about his religion, but there are some things that are painfully clear that he and other Muslims are just not honest about. One doesn’t need to be hit in the head with a 2x4 to see that.

I could easily throw random dirt clods back at you about things you believe in like Bush Doctrine, but that would be beneath me.

Please do. I love seeing you stick your foot in your mouth. You are totally ignorant of what is going on. Nothing has stopped you from hating Bush or Jews or anyone who doesn’t agree with you yet. The only thing lower is your backside unless you like it the other way around.

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third_eye

~snip

That'll probably make third eye really flake out.

Oh no it won't ... honestly ...and it didn't ... and that was a cheap shot too ... :lol:

~

The recitation and reading of the Qur'an is not just what is written word for word ... that's why translations always falls short ... the intonations and emphasis on exact words in phrases is essential on the entire meaning of the entire passage ... not how to split it up or breaking it down ...

You see when I say 'bring me the blue cup' or 'bring me the blue cup' or 'bring me the blue cup' might mean the same thing to you ... it does not ... it depends on the passage before and after the sentence ... this is something that is always lost on the translators and basic reading of the Qur'an ...

~

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and then

Oh no it won't ... honestly ...and it didn't ... and that was a cheap shot too ... :lol:

~

The recitation and reading of the Qur'an is not just what is written word for word ... that's why translations always falls short ... the intonations and emphasis on exact words in phrases is essential on the entire meaning of the entire passage ... not how to split it up or breaking it down ...

You see when I say 'bring me the blue cup' or 'bring me the blue cup' or 'bring me the blue cup' might mean the same thing to you ... it does not ... it depends on the passage before and after the sentence ... this is something that is always lost on the translators and basic reading of the Qur'an ...

~

You seem to be pleading the case that the Qur'an calls no one to violence to spread the religious aspect of Islam. And by extension that no one who commits violence in the name of Islam is truly "Islamic"? Could you explain where the acceptance of beheading comes from in the history of the religion?

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third_eye

You seem to be pleading the case that the Qur'an calls no one to violence to spread the religious aspect of Islam. And by extension that no one who commits violence in the name of Islam is truly "Islamic"? Could you explain where the acceptance of beheading comes from in the history of the religion?

Oh I don't know ... tell me of any civ that had never beheaded anyone or worse ?

Commit violence ? Either you are so blind to your hypocrisy or you are doing it on purpose ... and I do believe you are doing the latter ... why is it only when its associated with Islam that it means something to you ... and when its associated with something else it is understandable or acceptable ? ever heard of guillotines ? Does Islam have a history of burning women and children ? So you say you guys don't do it anymore ... so what does that means ... its alright now ? Ever heard of incendiary ammunition ? JC said anything about that being okay ? Phosphorous bombs gets JC's thumbs up of approval ?

Get what you know of truly "Christian' right first before you attempt to spout and spew your truth of some other religion please ...

You don't know how to differentiate between enemies of Islam and non acceptance of Islam ... I live and eat with Muslims every day of my life ... do you see me getting beheaded because I am not converting anytime soon ? I am a friend of Muslims ... that does not make me a Muslim ... I have no intention of converting to ISlam ... that does not make me an enemy of ISlam ... but of course to you that means nothing as you are already so sure that your little world filled with hatred for Islam makes you think you are loving JC more ... I don;t have to be a Christian to know that JC never taught anything remotely as such ... did JC ? You tell me ...

~

Edited by third_eye
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