"Putsch" in Ukraine

[Helen of Annoy]

I would take anything the BBC says about Russia with a huge amount of salt because they are anti-Russian to such an extent that they are unhinged. looking at various media across several languages, I see a rather more balanced and realistic view than the BBC, or Sky, or psychotically anti-Russian Daily Telegraph etc. Plenty of people in UK, a healthy majority by any opinion polls, would rather not like Brussels to control the UK. Some people in US States would not like to be controlled by Washington. It cannot be said that Russia can have no opinion about it's neighbour that has a large number of Russian speakers. And as I type this, I hear a BBC correspondent in Kiev saying that Ukraine is a deeply divided country, and talking about a large demonstration by supporters of Yanukovich. It is not a one way anti-Russian - pro EU street in Ukraine. It is best for those not involved to keep out and let Ukranians deal with this. Those EU politicians who have been on the streets of Kiev and called for regime change have committed serious criminal offences and should be arrested. But this will not happen. I hope nobody condones criminal activity of such an extent that it calls for, essentially, revolution. Is that what he EU is about, fomenting revolution in a major European country....

Aw, you're too precious...

[Kaa-Tzik]

Aw, you're too precious...

Simply want to go on holiday to Crimea without a passport

[Helen of Annoy]

Simply want to go on holiday to Crimea without a passport

That's understandable.

Everything else was not.

So keep up the good work, if there was anyone sitting on the fence, they are now totally pro-Ukrainian. Because you proved Ukrainian complaints, about threats, discrimination and police state they are forced to live in, are true.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Helen of Annoy

[+and-then]

So, on your own admission you don't know or care about history. Remarkable, as it is all about history. I see you will not, or cannot, answer about ethnic Russians in Ukraine having a say. They are not "colonists" in Ukraine, it is their homeland, and had you bothered to learn any history, or just taken the time to read my posts, you would know this.

KT a similar situation existed in Georgia with ethnic Russians, did it not? Do you believe a similar action by the Kremlin would also be justified here at some point?

[Kaa-Tzik]

That's understandable.

Everything else was not.

So keep up the good work, if there was anyone sitting on the fence, they are now totally pro-Ukrainian. Because you proved Ukrainian complaints, about threats, discrimination and police state they are forced to live in, are true.

You seem to be telling people what to think, and indulging in your own anti-Russian propoganda, again. So tell me, is all of Ukraine pro EU and nobody pro Russia? are the millions of Russian speakers in Ukraine allowed a say in this attempt to drag Ukraine into EU? What is your opinion on, say, Crimea. The population are Russian speakers, they want to be part of Russia, again. Do they not have a voice? do they have to toe the EU/US line or be condemned as, what, fascists or Putin puppets or something? I rather think that those "sitting on the fence" will see that I make a point about the right of a section of Ukranian society to have their say, and that I am attacked by knee jerk Russophobia and incredible ignorance. This is about Ukraine, not Russia, not Putin, not EU/US and it's two faced hypocrits of politicians, and certainly not about the egos of shrill Russophobes on internet.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

KT a similar situation existed in Georgia with ethnic Russians, did it not? Do you believe a similar action by the Kremlin would also be justified here at some point?

At last, a sensible question. Well, the situation in Ukraine is very similar, though it does not really involve ethnic Russians in the very direct way that Ukraine does. The history, which is important, is long and complicated, too complicated to lay out in the necessary detail, so, as with my post about Ukraine, I will simplify the situation, though I hope without making any distortions. Like Ukraine, the internal borders of Soviet Union were re-drawn to bring Abkhazia and South Ossetia into the Georgian SSR. By the way, there is a North and South Ossetia because the two are seperated by a mountain range, though the people are the same, They are actually Alans, the same ones who attacked Rome in antiquity, so it can be seen they have a very long and proud history as a people. They, like the Abkhazians, are not Georgians, and like any peoples in the world, want the right to decide their own future. It so happens that Ossetians, North and South, and Russian Orthodox, do not have some hate fest going against Russia and, in North Ossetia live normally as part of Russian Federation. The current situation is the result of Abkhazia and South Ossetia being given to control of Georgian SSR, for logistical reasons back in the days, and, just as with Ukraine, terrible and hasty descions at fall of USSR to create independant nations based on internal USSR boundaries that took no notice of ethnic groups and the aspirations of those groups. As soon as Georgia became an Independant country, fighting broke out as the populations of Abkhazia and South Ossetia did not want to become part of Georgia. So you see, this conflict has been going on since 1991, not 2008. I am not going into all the detail of the 2008 war, except to say that in amongst all the anti-Russian nonsense, the expressed desires of the peoples of Abkhazia and South Ossetia have been wilfully ignored in the West as it does not suit their machinations. Though I will say that in their favor, an EU commission on the 2008 war (Though of what business was it thiers?) did find that the war was the fault of Georgia. If Russia wanted to take Georgia, as is said in endless propoganda, then why did it not do so, when it could have done it easily, in 2008. Georgia has not lost one mm of land that is rightfully Georgian, to Russia, and Russia has not taken Abkhazia and South Ossetia into Russian Federation. I hope this clears up some misconceptions.

It's said a picture paints a thousand words, so

Edited December 9, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[bmk1245]

I understand frustration when your once "velikaja strana" shrunk substantially, and former territories don't want to dance under your flute.

PS I wonder, how many Russians living in Ukraine do speak/understand Ukrainian?

[Kaa-Tzik]

I understand frustration when your once "velikaja strana" shrunk substantially, and former territories don't want to dance under your flute.

PS I wonder, how many Russians living in Ukraine do speak/understand Ukrainian?

Your post totaly ignores the wishes of millions of people in Ukraine. It is the same with other posters, you only think about the EU/US fanboys and rabid Russophobes in Western Ukraine. So I ask you same as the others, do the millions of Russian speakers in Donbass and Crimea have a voice? do they not have a right to decide their own future? Would you complain if there was a plebicite for the right bank to ask they want to remain part of Ukraine, to join Russian federation as an autonymous region, or even to form their own country. Do they not have they right to decide their own future? or is everything predicated on this unhinged hatred of Russia. You blame modern Russians for actions of Soviet Union still? you not yet relalised that millions of ethnic Russians also suffered under the non Russian Stalin and Beria?

You also wrongly assume, like so many others, that the Russian speakers in Ukraine are "colonists" in a land not theirs. I suggest you stand in middle of Sevastopol or Lugansk or many other cities and say this. I wonder what the reaction will be.....

Ukraine is not same as Baltics, that is another problem that I am not discussing here, it is about Ukraine. And maybe you can explain the interference of Lithuania in Ukraine, centuries back with the Poles, and last week with your politicians calling for regime change...... Maybe in Lithuania you miss the old days of domination over a wide area of non Lithuanian peoples, perhaps you think Minsk should be part of some Lithuanian empire again. It seems odd you complain about Russian expansionism in the past, when Lithuania did exactly the same...

Edited December 9, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

I really have no desire to get dragged into a general rant against Russia/Soviet Union because some here are pathologically Russophobic to an extent that their judgement is clouded. I discuss only about Ukraine and the divisions in Ukraine that have been bought into sharp focus by this EU affair. When there are two sides, then there are two opinions, and both need to be heard, not just those of Western Ukranians and those who only "support" them as a way of bashing Russia for their own egotistical amusement. Millions in Eastern Ukraine have a right to a voice and self determination. Is there anybody who says they have no rights, and if so, why....

[bmk1245]

I really have no desire to get dragged into a general rant against Russia/Soviet Union because some here are pathologically Russophobic to an extent that their judgement is clouded. I discuss only about Ukraine and the divisions in Ukraine that have been bought into sharp focus by this EU affair. When there are two sides, then there are two opinions, and both need to be heard, not just those of Western Ukranians and those who only "support" them as a way of bashing Russia for their own egotistical amusement. Millions in Eastern Ukraine have a right to a voice and self determination. Is there anybody who says they have no rights, and if so, why....

What is Russophobic in pointing out obvious?

And, of course, millions in Eastern Ukraine are more equal than the rest of country's citizens.

[Kaa-Tzik]

What is Russophobic in pointing out obvious?

And, of course, millions in Eastern Ukraine are more equal than the rest of country's citizens.

Pointing out the obvious what? And your second statement seems rather disengenous, please be clear in what you mean...

[Frank Merton]

I think the Russians concern for their co-Russians living in these other countries is appropriate but their methods are heavy-handed and guaranteed to just cause the Russian nationals living in these countries worse trouble. They left Russia to live elsewhere, they should become part of the new country. What happened of course is that the Russian state encouraged them to leave so as to have just this sort of thing available to them should the "Republics" ever obtain independence. It is all now working itself out.

[Kaa-Tzik]

I think the Russians concern for their co-Russians living in these other countries is appropriate but their methods are heavy-handed and guaranteed to just cause the Russian nationals living in these countries worse trouble. They left Russia to live elsewhere, they should become part of the new country. What happened of course is that the Russian state encouraged them to leave so as to have just this sort of thing available to them should the "Republics" ever obtain independence. It is all now working itself out.

I know what you mean. But you really ought to say Soviet and not Russian as regards immigration into Baltic states during the Soviet era. Also those people did not have much choice as Stalin liked to move various groups of people about the Soviet Union for a number of reasons. In Ukraine, as I have mentioned quite a few times now, the Russian speakers are not "colonists", those areas were they live are their homeland, they have every right to exist there. If you want to blame anybody for why we arrive at this current situation, then blame Khrushchev and Yeltsin. I point out that Russia has never made any claim on Ukranian territory since fall of Soviet Union, and makes no claim now. This is a matter for the various ethnic groups in Ukraine to resolve, without interference from Moscow or Brussles or Washington. I see not a single Russian politician agitating on Ukranian streets or in any media over this EU affair, but I do see EU politicians on the streets of Ukraine and on the media calling for regime change. This is fact, and needs to be explained. You and others zoom in like a laser to anything that Putin says, or does not say, yet are silent about the "heavy-handed" disgracefull and crimminal actions of the EU politicians. The only word from either Putin or Medvedev is to ask what the hell those EU politicians are doing. Russia at least has a genuine interest in Ukraine, whether you like it or not, the EU has none.

[Helen of Annoy]

Let me quote Croatian minister of external affairs, who's one of these politicians who visited Kiev and who you would arrest (!).

She said to her hosts, that government that is so dear to you, after visiting the protestors: "These people are European, these children are your children, our children and therefore it’s so extremely important for them, for us, to stop all the violence. It’s so extremely important that you go to them to talk, to sit with them...”

Read it. Again. What is arrestable is these words?

Now look at your cute and funny drawings.

This is not how you help lower the tensions. Isn't that what Russians in Ukraine would benefit from? Lowering tensions, reaching compromise? Is it wiser to share or to destroy if you can't have it all just for yourself?

[WoIverine]

BRICS Nations, 2018. Ukrainians need to do some reading before they make a decision they may come to regret.

Edited December 9, 2013 by WoIverine

[aztek]

has any of the posters in this thread ever been to ukraine???

does not look like it. how do i know? i go there every few years. i know how ukraine is in reality, not just kiev, but other places that you will not see on tv. kiev may be the capital, but iti s not how the rest of ukraine is. same thing as new york is not like the rest of america.

there is no russians in ukraine that are misstreated in any way becouse they are russians. there is no such issue.

about eu. has anyone here read what ukraine needs to do in order to get in?? a lot, and most of it undoable. replacing all railroad tracks to eu standart, this alone, is not feasable.

also ukraine leased 5% of its land to china for agracultural reasons, for 50 years. at least.

also did anyone ask eu if they even want ukraine in ??? at this point there is nothing ukraine can give, to be not a parasite to eu.

ukraine needs to stay independent ukraine, and have buissnes partners in eu and russia, depending on ukraine needs.

they first need to get their own s,.,.t thogeter, and get rid of magacorrupt gvmnt, that chokes the country, and its abuility to improve and grow. than they would not need eu or russia.

one positive thing,, they are on right track, will see if they stay on it.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Let me quote Croatian minister of external affairs, who's one of these politicians who visited Kiev and who you would arrest (!).

She said to her hosts, that government that is so dear to you, after visiting the protestors: "These people are European, these children are your children, our children and therefore it’s so extremely important for them, for us, to stop all the violence. It’s so extremely important that you go to them to talk, to sit with them...”

Read it. Again. What is arrestable is these words?

Now look at your cute and funny drawings.

This is not how you help lower the tensions. Isn't that what Russians in Ukraine would benefit from? Lowering tensions, reaching compromise? Is it wiser to share or to destroy if you can't have it all just for yourself?

But you just quote one EU politician, what about Kaczynski and the others. And by what right do any EU politicians have to make interfere in such a way. Perhaps the next election in Croatia it would be okay for Russian politicians to lecture Zagreb. You don't like the cartoon and say it is not the way to lower tensions, well, EU politicians stirring trouble in Kiev is not the way to lower tensions, is it... And give one instance of Russia making any claim on Ukranian territory. Very quiet about rights of millions of Ukranians NOT to be railroaded into EU. Still no opinions about people of Donbass and Crimea, or do they not count because they are the "wrong type" of Europeans. You should think ahead of consequences, and this is not threat. If Ukraine joins EU, then NATO will not be far behind. What do you think will happen when the first US GI steps foot over the Dnieper, or some US warships sails into Sevastopol because Kiev has given to US as yet another of their very many bases all over the world, more than a hundred I think. How many Russian bases outside Russia, one, Tartus, big threat to America and "freedom" I'm sure....

Edited December 9, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[WoIverine]

.

Edited December 9, 2013 by WoIverine

[Kaa-Tzik]

has any of the posters in this thread ever been to ukraine???

does not look like it. how do i know? i go there every few years. i know how ukraine is in reality, not just kiev, but other places that you will not see on tv. kiev may be the capital, but iti s not how the rest of ukraine is. same thing as new york is not like the rest of america.

there is no russians in ukraine that are misstreated in any way becouse they are russians. there is no such issue.

about eu. has anyone here read what ukraine needs to do in order to get in?? a lot, and most of it undoable. replacing all railroad tracks to eu standart, this alone, is not feasable.

also ukraine leased 5% of its land to china for agracultural reasons, for 50 years. at least.

also did anyone ask eu if they even want ukraine in ??? at this point there is nothing ukraine can give, to be not a parasite to eu.

ukraine needs to stay independent ukraine, and have buissnes partners in eu and russia, depending on ukraine needs.

they first need to get their own s,.,.t thogeter, and get rid of magacorrupt gvmnt, that chokes the country, and its abuility to improve and grow. than they would not need eu or russia.

one positive thing,, they are on right track, will see if they stay on it.

Too the first part of your post, er, yes.

Where do you get the idea that anybody has said Russian speakers in Ukraine are mistreated? I have not said any such thing, only that they should not be dictated too by the noisy EU and US fan boys in Kiev. I know there is not serious tension between the various Ukranian ethnic groups, but the EU/US media paints a picture of "good" Western Ukranians, and "bad" Eastern Ukranians. Though you not aware that attacks, verbal mostly, but also physical, are made in West Ukranian cities against Red Army veterans of the war. You deny this? as one very old veteran was beaten to the ground in Lvov a few years back by fascist, Russian hating thugs. I know, and many Ukranians know that to join EU would be impossible and the economy would completely collapse. I know that Russia has overed Ukraine a far better deal than EU, billions better. My posts are to show why there are divisions in Ukraine, this cannot be denied, and why they have come about. And I do this is because of the lies told by EU/US politicians and media because they wish to damage Russia, not help Ukraine. It still has to be explained just why all those thousands are demonstrating in Kiev and trying, without success so far, to overthrow democratically elected goverment, and supported by EU politicians on the ground and by US politicians from abroad. It is almost irellevant that this nonsense is only happening in Kiev, for revolutions tend to have just one point of origin. These morons in Kiev waving EU flags are trying to destroy the country with the help of foreigners, why? and do you deny this?. You mistake my posts as being against Western Ukraine, I said they are not, though some truths about Ukraine should be told. You say that has anybody asked EU if they want Ukraine, well, the answer is seen by their politicians marching through Kiev with EU flags and inflamatory speeches, and the comment by othet EU polititcians and their media. Seems to me EU wants Ukraine, then it will be NATO, which is the goal....

Edit to ask if you have seen the anti-Russian hate campaign that has been happening in various parts of the internet for some years. The hate that calls for ethnic cleansing of Russians speakers from Ukraine, the hate that calls for Russians to be killed. I have, many of us have. And were does this disgusting calls for genocide come from, well, guess....

Edited December 9, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

But you just quote one EU politician, what about Kaczynski and the others. And by what right do any EU politicians have to make interfere in such a way. Perhaps the next election in Croatia it would be okay for Russian politicians to lecture Zagreb. You don't like the cartoon and say it is not the way to lower tensions, well, EU politicians stirring trouble in Kiev is not the way to lower tensions, is it... And give one instance of Russia making any claim on Ukranian territory. Very quiet about rights of millions of Ukranians NOT to be railroaded into EU. Still no opinions about people of Donbass and Crimea, or do they not count because they are the "wrong type" of Europeans. You should think ahead of consequences, and this is not threat. If Ukraine joins EU, then NATO will not be far behind. What do you think will happen when the first US GI steps foot over the Dnieper, or some US warships sails into Sevastopol because Kiev has given to US as yet another of their very many bases all over the world, more than a hundred I think. How many Russian bases outside Russia, one, Tartus, big threat to America and "freedom" I'm sure....

Aw, for god’s sake, you’re seeing GIs on Dnieper... Even if that happens one hypothetical day, why do you think they’d come as enemies?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t profound love of democracy something yours and US regime share?

So what would happen if Ukraine gains true independence, and joins EU and NATO? Nothing Russia couldn’t benefit from.

No, don’t scream or faint.

We all know there won’t be any war between US and Russia. You’re too necessary to each other. The gas would keep flowing, its prices would keep going up. You could bemoan your minorities with so much more effect if Ukraine was in EU. (Spoken from experience. Was hiper-sophisticated EU a bingo for our holy minorities.)

Speaking of NATO, did you even wonder why is it that each former Warsaw pact country was so eager to get in? Why we all feel such essential need to make sure Russia won’t make herself too much at home in our places ever again?

It’s not hatred, don’t buy or sell that. I know how close we are as people. I can’t hate you just because you’re Russian, I can only hate you less just because you’re Russian. Seriously. As individuals, you are... us. It’s your politics that was and is god-forbid-get-the-****-away-from-me.

We, from Baltic to Ukraine, need NATO and EU to help us regain our sovereignties, as contradictory it may seem.

The only extraordinary consequence of NATO on Ukrainian soil could be glass on Lenin’s show coffin breaking loudly, but if you ask me, it’s about time you get rid of that abomination. It’s like the most perverted Snow White ever seen, really. With that huge head of his... no wonder he took such lovely nose dive in Kiev

[Mr.United_Nations]

Are you from Ukraine or Russia?

[bmk1245]

Pointing out the obvious what?[...]

That you still mad that once "velikaja derzhava" isn't that "velikaja" nowadays, and that former territories and satellites want to escape geopolitical influence of Russia.

[...] And your second statement seems rather disengenous, please be clear in what you mean...

You pushing rights of the minorities forgetting rights of the majority.

Now, how entrance of Ukraine into EU will be more "disastrous" for Russian minority than for Ukrainians?

Ukraine citizens will decide where they want to be.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Aw, for god’s sake, you’re seeing GIs on Dnieper

At an airbase in Crimea are US "Military adivisors", and in the last week unusual movements of Ukranian Army divisions take place into Crimea. Since fall of USSR the people of Crimea have on numerous occassions moved to gain independance from Kiev, by peaceful means of course. See my previous posts on this. Everything I wrote is veriviable fact that can be checked in any good history book on the subject. EU/US is supossed to be all in favor of minorities seeking self determination, apparently this does not extend to ethnic Russians. In Lvov was a very small, maybe less than a hundred, demonstration by Russian speakers, a small ethnic minority in Lvov, against being part of EU. The police of Lvov stopped this peacful demonstrations, tore down the tiny number of placards and dragged people away under arrest. Such tolerance eh. Seems in Europe is a new commandment "Thou shalt not criticise EU", and if you do, well, you must be mentally ill or some terrorist or "rascist". The sad thing is that I do not even have to make any of this up as it is actually happening. Anyway, this nonsense is now almost over as the attempt to remove Yanukovich has failed. The Western Ukranian "demonstraters" bussed into Kiev, have been abandonned by their paymasters and left to fend for themselves.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

That you still mad that once "velikaja derzhava" isn't that "velikaja" nowadays, and that former territories and satellites want to escape geopolitical influence of Russia.

You pushing rights of the minorities forgetting rights of the majority.

Now, how entrance of Ukraine into EU will be more "disastrous" for Russian minority than for Ukrainians?

Ukraine citizens will decide where they want to be.

Yet I have been very careful to say, several times, that Russia has made NO claims on Ukranian territory, or Lithuanian or Latvian, and has not even taken in Abkhazia and South Ossetia when it could easily do so, and with the enthusiastic support of the population of those areas who want to be within Russian Federation. Who speaks for a "Greater Russia"? not Putin, not even the idiot Zhirinovsky. This fear of a "Greater Russia" is only in peoples minds, it is not a reality. I have not spoken for a divided Ukraine, only to point out possibilities based on history and the situation we have. Nobody wants any civil war, except maybe those foriegners shouting from the sidelines, and injecting money to various Western Ukrainian political groups and paramilitaries. You know about the Ukranian nationalist paramilitaries in Lvov with their Western money and NATO "advisors"? You speak of the "Rights of the majority", fine, then on that basis Western Ukraine with 79% wanting EU should join, and the 75% of those in Eastern Ukraine against EU will not. Now what happens.... And let's not forget the wishes of the overwhelming majority in Crimea to leave Ukraine. Few days back the Crimean parliament declared, when situation in Kiev looked really bad, that if any coup against democratically elected government was succesful, then they would declare Crimea to be independant and ask Russia for protection. Such announcments are extremely serious.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

Are you from Ukraine or Russia?

As this follows a post by Helen, that I will say that she is neither for she is a Croat. For myself I am both. A re-reading of an earlier post by me explains why this can be so.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik