"Putsch" in Ukraine

[Helen of Annoy]

That post is all about defending your personal bias and is unworthy of you. I rather think that anybody "sitting on the fence" will notice how un-balanced your posts are. Critiscising a link because it is to RT is ridiculous, should I have put a link to Vesti or channel One or NTV or Lenta that nobody will understand?. Perhaps you can show a link to his words on another English language channel, or not. You are long on opinion and distorting, and very short on fact. And stop telling me or anybody else what I think. If I were a "Holodomor denier", then don't you think that I would never have even mentioned it, eh. And show one instance were I have called for "Russian armed intervention abroad". That is absolutely a lie. Seems you want to close down this debate, doesn't it......

There he goes with anti Russians again.

I’m fed up with your hysteria, child.

But don’t you worry, I have extra patience with kids.

So let me explain it to you once again: If I have objective complaints about the way Russia meddled in Ukrainian governing business and the way official and pro-Russian Ukrainian government treated the peaceful pro-EU protestors, it doesn’t mean I hate any of the people who live both in Russia and Ukraine.

An averagely intelligent person should be able to notice it means I care for them all.

News flash for you: it's possible to not approve of dominant political trend in a country and not hate its population. Clearer now?

Can’t you see how bad impression you leave? You are not helping, not Ukrainians, not Russians, not anyone, I told you that pages ago and it’s about time you notice I said that because it is so.

Separate your militarist wet dreams (if you forgot what you posted, review this thread) from actual reality and stop fuelling potentially deadly conflict.

If people are in the streets, they have a reason for that. Listen to them. Find compromise. Live happily ever after. By beating the crap out of them you’re only deepening the wounds. Is it that hard to understand such simple facts of life?

Edit: I see you edited few words out of your original post, which is a good sign, but my reply will remain the way I wrote it adressing the first version of your post.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Helen of Annoy

[Kaa-Tzik]

There he goes with anti Russians again.

I’m fed up with your hysteria, child.

But don’t you worry, I have extra patience with kids.

So let me explain it to you once again: If I have objective complaints about the way Russia meddled in Ukrainian governing business and the way official and pro-Russian Ukrainian government treated the peaceful pro-EU protestors, it doesn’t mean I hate any of the people who live both in Russia and Ukraine.

An averagely intelligent person should be able to notice it means I care for them all.

News flash for you: it's possible to not approve of dominant political trend in a country and not hate its population. Clearer now?

Can’t you see how bad impression you leave? You are not helping, not Ukrainians, not Russians, not anyone, I told you that pages ago and it’s about time you notice I said that because it is so.

Separate your militarist wet dreams (if you forgot what you posted, review this thread) from actual reality and stop fuelling potentially deadly conflict.

If people are in the streets, they have a reason for that. Listen to them. Find compromise. Live happily ever after. By beating the crap out of them you’re only deepening the wounds. Is it that hard to understand such simple facts of life?

Edit: I see you edited few words out of your original post, which is a good sign, but my reply will remain the way I wrote it adressing the first version of your post.

Any hysteria is clearly not mine. Again, quote a single word from Yeltsin, Putin or Medvedev that make claim on any territory outside Russian Federation. Quote where I have called for any armed intervention in Ukraine. I have constantly said that it for Ukranians to decide their own fate. I have posited, simply hypothetically, that if the situation becomes intolerable, then maybe a plebiscite is held to see if the Russian speaking regions wish to remain as part of Ukraine as it is, become part of Russia or to become an independent state. People in Crimea clearly desire to withdraw from Ukraine as it is. I have already stated that Crimea, the eastern and central regions will be a viable state without any significant ethnic tensions. The issues, the problems, within Ukraine are mostly from the western oblasts, the regions that were part of Poland, Lithuania, Romania and Austria-Hungary. Perhaps it is they who should have a plebiscite to see if they want to become an independant country. This is not any call for any actual break up of Ukraine, yet you say I am "fueling a potential deadly conflict", well, better have me arrested and sent to Den Haag for "war crimes". Seems you don't want to discuss the realities under the surface in Ukraine. I said in one of my first posts that it was not my intention of discussing the finacial aspects of joining UE, it was to lay out the history, in simplified but not distorted form, of Ukraine and why these tensions exist, to an audience that is not so aware of this. You don't want this, do you...

[Helen of Annoy]

Any hysteria is clearly not mine. Again, quote a single word from Yeltsin, Putin or Medvedev that make claim on any territory outside Russian Federation. Quote where I have called for any armed intervention in Ukraine. I have constantly said that it for Ukranians to decide their own fate. I have posited, simply hypothetically, that if the situation becomes intolerable, then maybe a plebiscite is held to see if the Russian speaking regions wish to remain as part of Ukraine as it is, become part of Russia or to become an independent state. People in Crimea clearly desire to withdraw from Ukraine as it is. I have already stated that Crimea, the eastern and central regions will be a viable state without any significant ethnic tensions. The issues, the problems, within Ukraine are mostly from the western oblasts, the regions that were part of Poland, Lithuania, Romania and Austria-Hungary. Perhaps it is they who should have a plebiscite to see if they want to become an independant country. This is not any call for any actual break up of Ukraine, yet you say I am "fueling a potential deadly conflict", well, better have me arrested and sent to Den Haag for "war crimes". Seems you don't want to discuss the realities under the surface in Ukraine. I said in one of my first posts that it was not my intention of discussing the finacial aspects of joining UE, it was to lay out the history, in simplified but not distorted form, of Ukraine and why these tensions exist, to an audience that is not so aware of this. You don't want this, do you...

I will gracefully ignore the fact that you dared putting war crimes in quotation marks.

I could say that problems in and for Ukraine are mostly in the eastern part, more Russian dominated, from historic reasons I won’t mention again.

The audience is aware by now what it might look in Ukraine, only much worse, because I’m only gravely disappointed with situation there but I’m not there in person, freezing my ass in the square.

All right.

Let’s try discussing it rationally. And objectively as it is possible for both of us, please.

I recognize your legitimate concern for your minority. Yes, their opinion must be considered too. Their votes must be worth the same as anyone else’s. No one of Ukrainian opposition have hinted otherwise, while – excuse me, but it’s obvious – pro-Russian officials were dealing with their own Ukrainian citizens like they have no rights.

Recent change in official Ukrainian government stance indicates the protestors were not hired provocateurs but actual masses of people.

Will you please acknowledge that?

Now, I think the protestors want their vote to be worth the same as Russian vote. Abandoning EU on Russian request was the drop that spilled the glass, not the main reason for protests.

If Ukraine elects new government in free and fair elections, and that new government chooses to distance from Russia, who can object to that and still claim he’s for democracy?

[bmk1245]

But what is to stop Putin or Zhirinovsky saying it openly? maybe Putin for diplomatic reasons, if he even thinks such things, and there is no evidence. And Zhirinovsky gives a damn about diplomacy...[...]

Maybe he started to think for a first time in his life...

[...]

Your first link will not open for me. [...[

Sorry, damn URL in Cyrillics...

Here you go -> link. Should work now.

[...] Anyway, it is of course polls over all Ukraine, yet to me, the important element is the regional breakdown. Fine, if say 51% of all ukranians vote for eurotrash,[...]

Who said Ukrainians? Again, according to the poll, majority of Ukraine citizens. Feel the difference?

[...] but that will mean majority in East and Crimea have no choice. This is what may break Ukraine, this is what my posts are about. In most countries in their elections is normally an even spread over entire country of votes for, say a party of the right or one of the left. Whatever party wins, it does not disposses one actual physical half of the country, so there is no split. But in Ukraine there is this ethnic geographic split.

[...]

But, isn't that "split" orchestrated from Kremlin? Reminds me of Latvia. When Latvia entered EU, suddenly many Russian language speakers learned Latvian language to get Latvian citizenship... What Russia did to keep others on the leash? "Easier" visas to Russia...

[...]

About Crimea, again I invite you to stand in Simferopol or Sevastopol and tell them who they are or what they want.....

Heh, go to Lviv and tell them who they are or what they want...

[Mr.United_Nations]

Russia that desperate?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25411118