RIP Nelson Mandela

[Frank Merton]

don't know much about Minh but I do know Washington and Jefferson didn't kill women and children randomly

Yes you are probably right about Washington and Jefferson.

[ali smack]

Aren't we meant to have freedom of speach? So in all fairness are we not allowed to voice our views on him?

Why if people tell the truth about him, it's called spreading hate?

Yes he did stop the aparthied.

But as others have written he did do some terrible things as well.

[Ealdwita]

.....and it's far from over.....

http://donnettefry.com/tag/kill-the-farmer-peter-mokaba-anc-when-mandela-dies-we-will-kill-you-whites-like-flies-mzukizi-gaba-anc-we-the-members-of-mk-have-pledged-ourselves-to-kill-them/

(Cue the apologists and excuse-makers....)

[libstaK]

.....and it's far from over.....

http://donnettefry.c...s-to-kill-them/

(Cue the apologists and excuse-makers....)

Apologize for what? "When Mandela dies ...." in other words, Mandela is known in all quarters as the peacemaker, those that would continue the violence are planning to wait until he dies before they do so.

What has that to do with Mandela? Is he responsible for the actions of every single person in his country who kills one another now?

[Frank Merton]

I must say I find the posts attacking Mandela both inaccurate and out of place and in tawdry taste. I am not inclined to debate such a thing here though; it should have its own thread.

[TopToffee]

dont lie, I have 2 South Africans and both are white and also you lied about the bombings, he never liked what he did, he would of kicked thw whites out if he continued but he didn't.

Do you live in the land of Marshmallows,where everything is soft and fluffy.?.No matter if you plant one bomb or a hundred,you are classed as a terrorist.The fact he didn't 'kick the whites' out is no comfort to those that died in any bombings attributed to his political beliefs/ideals.

Edited December 7, 2013 by TopToffee

[libstaK]

Do you live in the land of Marshmallows,where everything is soft and fluffy.?.No matter if you plant one bomb or a hundred,you are classed as a terrorist.The fact he didn't 'kick the whites' out is no comfort to those that died in any bombings attributed to his political beliefs/ideals.

And apartheid proponents were such angels - especially the ones who killed Ruth First the wife of an ANC member with a parcel bomb

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ruth_First

She was assassinated by order of Craig Williamson, a major in the South African Police, on 17 August 1982, when she opened a letter bomb that had been sent to the university.^[3]

Edited December 7, 2013 by libstaK

[TopToffee]

And apartheid proponents were such angels - especially the ones who killed Ruth First the wife of an ANC member with a parcel bomb

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ruth_First

She was assassinated by order of Craig Williamson, a major in the South African Police, on 17 August 1982, when she opened a letter bomb that had been sent to the university.^[3]

I was not attributing belief to either side.My point being was that whether you plant one bomb or a hundred then you are classed as a terrorist.His enemies were exactly the same but lets not make Saints of these people.

[DeWitz]

Good reply.

Insightful post, Sir. My position is that one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. What history I know suggests this.

To put it into the cinematic words of Jack Nicholson's Joker (in 1he 1989 "Batman), "You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs."

This is not to trivialize either Mandela, his actions or any of these above comments. It's just grist for the mill.

The US 'Founding Fathers' destroyed many indigenous lives and enslaved Africans--but we have monuments and federal holidays to them. These are 'fightin' words' in most US taverns, believe me. A neutral perspective is difficult, given the enormousness of their impact on US history and the enormity of their transgressions.

[Golden Duck]

hey guys.....I have been visiting this site and been an avid reader for over a year and finally decided to register as a member. My reason for this is to give some insight from someone living in South Africa and who has been affected, positively by former president Nelson Mandela.

I would like to say that yes his past may have been shady and these 'acts' of terror as some would like to put it, that he carried was not only carried out by him. Infact some of those acts were not commited by him at all but that's not the point here. Some of you view him as a murderer and terrorist but you obviously and ignorantly have no clue what Apartheid was like and what atrocities were commited to the people during that era.

Im not looking away from those acts were innocent lives were lost but you need to understand the effect damage and terror the apartheid regime had on the indigineous and indentured people of South Africa. For some of you, its very easy to say bad things about him but what he did as a freedom fighter and a champion for equality, human rights and democracy can never be overlooked by his past. For you he was a terrorist for our people he was a freedom fighter.

I am a 5th generation south African born indian....and I caught the last end of apartheid and growing up in a time when people of colour were treated like dirt and inferior, one begins to understand why the people revolted against this regime.

Instead of looking at what he has done during those periods why don't you research what the apartheid government had done to the people of south Africa and then ask yourself if he's still that bad. Believe me, the apartheid government were much much worse.

so to Nelson mandela the father of our nation, father or democracy, equality and liberty...we salute you for the freedoms we enjoy today. Rest in Peace.

How revered is FW De Klerk?

[Beany]

The reference to bombing has been mentioned so many times that I went out on the net and did a little research. This was the only reference I could find, from the South Africa History Online website. This organization doesn't seem to have an agenda; as always, I look for sources that are neutral. Date: 24 July, 1964

A time bomb placed in the Johannesburg railway station exploded during the evening rush hours. The explosion resulted in the death of one person and severe injuries to more than twenty others, including Ms Clasina Vogel. Ms Vogel was severely injured with burn wounds to her body, hands, legs, face and head, shrapnel wounds to her legs and burst eardrums. It later emerged thatFrederick John Harris, a teacher and member of the African Resistance Movement (ARM), was responsible for this incident. He was charged with murder and two counts of sabotage. Harris was convicted by Mr Justice Ludorf and sentenced to death.

This is what Wiki says about the ARM: A number of young Liberals became increasingly frustrated, and, in 1960, formed the National Liberation Committee (NLC).^[3] Initially focused on helping hunted people escape the country, the NLC progressed to sabotage government installations and services, explicitly eschewing violence against people. It launched its first operation in September 1963. From then, until July 1964, the NLC/ARM bombed power lines, railroad tracks and rolling stock, roads, bridges and other vulnerable infrastructure, without any civilian casualties.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Beany

[TopToffee]

The reference to bombing has been mentioned so many times that I went out on the net and did a little research. This was the only reference I could find, from the South Africa History Online website. This organization doesn't seem to have an agenda; as always, I look for sources that are neutral. Date: 24 July, 1964

A time bomb placed in the Johannesburg railway station exploded during the evening rush hours. The explosion resulted in the death of one person and severe injuries to more than twenty others, including Ms Clasina Vogel. Ms Vogel was severely injured with burn wounds to her body, hands, legs, face and head, shrapnel wounds to her legs and burst eardrums. It later emerged thatFrederick John Harris, a teacher and member of the African Resistance Movement (ARM), was responsible for this incident. He was charged with murder and two counts of sabotage. Harris was convicted by Mr Justice Ludorf and sentenced to death.

This is what Wiki says about the ARM: A number of young Liberals became increasingly frustrated, and, in 1960, formed the National Liberation Committee (NLC).^[3] Initially focused on helping hunted people escape the country, the NLC progressed to sabotage government installations and services, explicitly eschewing violence against people. It launched its first operation in September 1963. From then, until July 1964, the NLC/ARM bombed power lines, railroad tracks and rolling stock, roads, bridges and other vulnerable infrastructure, without any civilian casualties.

Are you comfortable with what you quote.I ve read it and I know you are going to hate it

[Beany]

Are you comfortable with what you quote.I ve read it and I know you are going to hate it

I'm in the process of educating myself and gathering information, TopToffee, so whether I like it or don't like it is besides the point, and there's always more to learn. But I don't give much thought to biased sources or statements that have no foundation in facts, and let me tell you, there's an inexhaustible supply of those on the net. In the good old days, if I were writing a paper, I'd conduct research at a library, which has more reliable scholarly works and not so much trash. I do try to form opinons based on facts instead of emotions, but I'm not always successful.

[Drayno]

RIP Nelson.. You were a brave man.

[Beany]

An imperfect man in an imperfect world, he accomplished a great thing, ridding his country of the apartheid system, at great sacrifice to himself.

[TSS]

I'm not sure i'm understanding what the criticism of Mandella is really - is it because he had a violent past and innocent people died? if so, well he was in a conflict, innocent people die in conflict.....you either go in to win, or don't bother. Or is the criticism because he didn't fight this battle through peaceful means - well back me into a corner for long enough (or any of you posting on here)....and see what you're capable of, and how you justify in your head (because you will). Or is the criticism because the media are (wrongly) painting him as some type of ghandi figure? in which case, that's a media problem then.

So what exactly is the criticism about?

[Likely Guy]

I can't believe that people are bringing up his ancient past. Has 'truth and reconciliation' taught you nothing?

He always admitted to his mistakes once being the prisoner (27 years in total, 18 years on Robin's Island) yet once becoming President, never sought vengeance.

Never before was there more of 'a father of a nation' than Nelson Mandela.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Likely Guy

[Professor Buzzkill]

I can't believe that people are bringing up his past. Has 'truth and reconciliation' taught you nothing?

Heck, the people in south africa haven't even learned it yet, and I am half a world away from there.

[Likely Guy]

Heck, the people in south africa haven't even learned it yet, and I am half a world away from there.

No, I'd suggest that you're much further.

[Professor T]

That's it then.. They're both gone now..

Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa. Two of my Hero's that showed me the goodness that Humanity is capable of.

Oh God I hope there's some folk in our generation brave enough to fill their shoes..

[Space Commander Travis]

I'm not sure i'm understanding what the criticism of Mandella is really - is it because he had a violent past and innocent people died? if so, well he was in a conflict, innocent people die in conflict.....you either go in to win, or don't bother. Or is the criticism because he didn't fight this battle through peaceful means - well back me into a corner for long enough (or any of you posting on here)....and see what you're capable of, and how you justify in your head (because you will). Or is the criticism because the media are (wrongly) painting him as some type of ghandi figure? in which case, that's a media problem then.

So what exactly is the criticism about?

Like i said earlier, I think Gandhi-like tactics wouldn't have worked in this case.

[stevewinn]

I'm not sure i'm understanding what the criticism of Mandella is really - is it because he had a violent past and innocent people died? if so, well he was in a conflict, innocent people die in conflict.....you either go in to win, or don't bother. Or is the criticism because he didn't fight this battle through peaceful means - well back me into a corner for long enough (or any of you posting on here)....and see what you're capable of, and how you justify in your head (because you will). Or is the criticism because the media are (wrongly) painting him as some type of ghandi figure? in which case, that's a media problem then.

So what exactly is the criticism about?

I think the criticism is down to the fact Mandela was no Saint as the media are painting. its always worth highlighting to people who may not be familiar with Mandela's life. We have to admit he did unify a country in the end. But does that mean we should turn the other cheek and forget. try telling that to the families effected, those who lost loved ones through the actions of militant wing of the ANC. which Mandela was leader. Blood is indeed on his hands. maybe the 27 years in jail give him time, remorse.

If we afford Mandela all this praise, would we do the same with Gerry Adams of the IRA if he unified a true peace in Northern Ireland. because the comparison can be made. it would be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on that.

[TopToffee]

I'm in the process of educating myself and gathering information, TopToffee, so whether I like it or don't like it is besides the point, and there's always more to learn. But I don't give much thought to biased sources or statements that have no foundation in facts, and let me tell you, there's an inexhaustible supply of those on the net. In the good old days, if I were writing a paper, I'd conduct research at a library, which has more reliable scholarly works and not so much trash. I do try to form opinons based on facts instead of emotions, but I'm not always successful.

Ms Clasina Vogel did not get any chance to put her way across then,making it a terrorist attack..Lets not make a martyr of this guy.

[TSS]

I think the criticism is down to the fact Mandela was no Saint as the media are painting. its always worth highlighting to people who may not be familiar with Mandela's life. We have to admit he did unify a country in the end. But does that mean we should turn the other cheek and forget. try telling that to the families effected, those who lost loved ones through the actions of militant wing of the ANC. which Mandela was leader. Blood is indeed on his hands. maybe the 27 years in jail give him time, remorse.

If we afford Mandela all this praise, would we do the same with Gerry Adams of the IRA if he unified a true peace in Northern Ireland. because the comparison can be made. it would be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on that.

Right, well that makes more sense in terms of what the criticism is, and to a small degree I can understand it - however, there seems to be a notion that a man is judged on his ability to be one personna throughout his life, and that is where the media have got it so wrong in this case, because they are concentrating on one aspect, which paints a false picture. I don't have an opinion on whether his actions were justified, but then it wasn't my fight, similarly, i'm not judging whether the action was the correct course of action - how would I know, how would anyone on this thread know? we didn't live it.

What I will say is this though - a man should not be judged on his ability to turn the other cheek, or adhere to non-violent methods in the face of over-whelming cruelty, I wouldn't tolerate a fraction of what those people had to endure, and I wouldn't turn the other cheek either.

A man should be judged by his ability to turn his thoughts and actions in accordance with the way the world is going - he was a violent man when he was the product of the violence around him, and a peaceful man when his country changed course.

I can respect someone without even liking them, I can be totally against their ideology and still respect them if they pull off something against the odds. Obviously I never knew Mandella, I have no reason to either like or dislike him....but in terms of how he was many different men (mindsets) within his life, and changed events like no one else in his country, I can respect him for that.

[stevewinn]

Right, well that makes more sense in terms of what the criticism is, and to a small degree I can understand it - however, there seems to be a notion that a man is judged on his ability to be one personna throughout his life, and that is where the media have got it so wrong in this case, because they are concentrating on one aspect, which paints a false picture. I don't have an opinion on whether his actions were justified, but then it wasn't my fight, similarly, i'm not judging whether the action was the correct course of action - how would I know, how would anyone on this thread know? we didn't live it.

What I will say is this though - a man should not be judged on his ability to turn the other cheek, or adhere to non-violent methods in the face of over-whelming cruelty, I wouldn't tolerate a fraction of what those people had to endure, and I wouldn't turn the other cheek either.

A man should be judged by his ability to turn his thoughts and actions in accordance with the way the world is going - he was a violent man when he was the product of the violence around him, and a peaceful man when his country changed course.

I can respect someone without even liking them, I can be totally against their ideology and still respect them if they pull off something against the odds. Obviously I never knew Mandella, I have no reason to either like or dislike him....but in terms of how he was many different men (mindsets) within his life, and changed events like no one else in his country, I can respect him for that.

I wonder what real impact Mandela had on apartheid. the ANC party was banned, Mandela ends up leader of the militant wing of that party, terrorist activities carried out against a legitimate government. in the end Mandela arrested and serves 27 years in jail. while he was in jail others carried on the 'fight' but in a peaceful way. also worth mentioning the political landscape in the world had changed a lot between 1948 to 1992 when apartheid was enforced by the late 1970's especially after the death of Steven Biko in 77, - the writing was on the wall, all this going on while Mandela was locked up. by the early 90's the government lifted a ban on parties such as Mandela's ANC. this all lead to a referendum in the early 90's were a YES/NO vote was to be held to end apartheid, the vote was a white only vote. but still over 68% voted YES to end apartheid.

it was clear by this stage the ANC backed by a black majority would win the next election, and like what goes on today the west needed a leader to keep a lid on the pressure cooker of a situation. post-apartheid - the leader of choice was Nelson Mandela, so released from jail. and becomes president of south Africa the irony is he achieved more by being locked up for 27 years - than he did when he was free and leader of the militant wing of the ANC. I guess at the time the west was fearful of another Rhodesia and in a bid to stop this they elected to use Mandela, and to be fair he did prevent another Rhodesia and in the process prevent a divided South Africa and achieved the near impossible. but for all that good still tainted by his early days.