Does Israel have a .....

[Yamato]

If the majority interpretation of Psalm 83 is correct, something very close to this is expected to occur. Every neighbor that shares a border with Israel is to attack, plus Saudi Arabia, Hamas and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. They are defeated in terrifying fashion and Israel takes control of these neighbors land. Finally they will be at peace simply because no one CAN threaten them any longer. Of course not long after they will be attacked by Russia, Turkey Sudan, Ethiopia, Libya and Iran - but God himself takes care of that war. The prediction is that 5/6 of the forces die. One way or another the peoples of the world WILL admit - and bow - to the God of the Bible.

Jesus Christ you mean?

Just to get this business of "Christian Zionism" straight so everyone understands the spirituality that it is, it goes like this:

1. Clean the Muslims off the Holy Land

2. Rebuild the Temple

3. All the ungodly Jews and Muslims and other miscreants and assorted heathens burn in the Holy Fires of Armageddon over a hilltop in Megiddo.

4. Jesus Christ returns and Christianity reigns supreme over all the world in a new golden age of God.

[+and-then]

Then don't say things like everyone will bow before my god, I wish when you guys say things like that, you would understand you really aren't being humble to god or us, you're using "god" as a weapon to exalt yourself over us. People take offense to it.

I don't think you understand exactly what spirituality is.

Understood - it wasn't intended that way and I apologize for being crude.

[+and-then]

Jesus Christ you mean?

Just to get this business of "Christian Zionism" straight so everyone understands the spirituality that it is, it goes like this:

1. Clean the Muslims off the Holy Land

2. Rebuild the Temple

3. All the ungodly Jews and Muslims and other miscreants and assorted heathens burn in the Holy Fires of Armageddon over a hilltop in Megiddo.

4. Jesus Christ returns and Christianity reigns supreme over all the world in a new golden age of God.

That pretty much covers it Yam. If those who are going to be defeated don't wish to be then they should stop cursing the God of the bible. And the location is the plain of Esdraelon (Meggido). You left out the part where they are assembled to WAR against God himself. He is God Yam - take it up with him if you don't care for what's coming. I don't pretend to understand why - I just accept that there is a God and I'm not him.

[Space Commander Travis]

OK, I've got a solution that will - at a stroke;

• Improve the technology base of the oil wells and refineries of the entire Arabian Peninsula.
  
• Place them under more rational management.
  
• Significantly improve living standards - and Human Rights observance - of the Peninsula.
  
• Improve the GDP, productivity, and resource efficiency of the region.
  
• Eliminate a number of petty kings, monarchs and despots.
  
• Rattle Iran, and stop making threats against Israel.
  
• Solve the Palestinian refugee chrisis.
  

To accomplish all of the above, Israel should simply invade - and occupy - Jordan, the Sinai, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Oman, the UAE, and Somalia.

It's new borders would be Turkey to the North, Iran to the East, and Egypt to the West (via bridges over the Suez).

A new Palestinian Homeland would be created by fusing bits of Jordan, the Sinai, northern Saudi and Iraq together - giving them plenty of breathing space, as well as ports on both the Arabian Sea and the Meditteranean.

With Israeli airbases (and tanks) on their western land border, and the Israeli navy within comfortable strike distance of ALL of their refineries and coastal oil shipping points, Iran will finally have to watch its mouth, as a loose belligerent comment could invite air strikes.

Israel would spend the peninsula's oil wealth FAR more wisely than the existing Kings, investing in high-tech and industry and bringing wealth and employment to all, improved access to healthcare, and vastly improved human rights.

Mecca could exist as an international city. The dome on the rock would be dismantled and rebuilt in Jeddah.A large wall could be built all around the Yemen.

But the best bit of it ALL would be the expression on the faces of the thousands of drones at the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, as they see their "meal ticket for generations" disappear, and they actually have to WORK for a living rather than just finding more and more Palestinians to count.

Actually if Israel was to occupy Saudi Arabia, i'd be all for that. It'd be interesting to see what they made of it in Washington, seeing that the K of SA is a Loyal Ally.

And Iraq too, come to that. What would Washington think of that?

And if Israel took over the UAE, would that mean that El Al would take over Emirates?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Colonel Rhubarb

[Space Commander Travis]

If the majority interpretation of Psalm 83 is correct, something very close to this is expected to occur. Every neighbor that shares a border with Israel is to attack, plus Saudi Arabia, Hamas and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. They are defeated in terrifying fashion and Israel takes control of these neighbors land. Finally they will be at peace simply because no one CAN threaten them any longer. Of course not long after they will be attacked by Russia, Turkey Sudan, Ethiopia, Libya and Iran - but God himself takes care of that war. The prediction is that 5/6 of the forces die. One way or another the peoples of the world WILL admit - and bow - to the God of the Bible.

So do you also believe in the prophecies of Nostradamus?

[Space Commander Travis]

Then don't say things like everyone will bow before my god, I wish when you guys say things like that, you would understand you really aren't being humble to god or us, you're using "god" as a weapon to exalt yourself over us. People take offense to it.

I don't think you understand exactly what spirituality is.

And a God which is a very, very narrow and - this is the point - a very, very personal view of God. It seems to be essentially "My God" (this very, very old fashioned view of the old fire-and-brimstone vengeful God merrily Smiting all in every direction) "will triumph over everyone else's God, because my God is the only true one, because that's how I choose to interpret particular books of the Old Testament and/or the Book of Revelation". When individual people believe this, it may be disturbing, but no harm done, but if senior politicians and leaders of nations believe it, it does have the potential to tempt them to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it. Perhaps the nearest we've come to that so far was the Presidency of G.W. Bush, but it is still worth remembering that this lobby, those who share this view, still have a powerful voice int he governments of powerful nations.

[+and-then]

And a God which is a very, very narrow and - this is the point - a very, very personal view of God. It seems to be essentially "My God" (this very, very old fashioned view of the old fire-and-brimstone vengeful God merrily Smiting all in every direction) "will triumph over everyone else's God, because my God is the only true one, because that's how I choose to interpret particular books of the Old Testament and/or the Book of Revelation". When individual people believe this, it may be disturbing, but no harm done, but if senior politicians and leaders of nations believe it, it does have the potential to tempt them to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it. Perhaps the nearest we've come to that so far was the Presidency of G.W. Bush, but it is still worth remembering that this lobby, those who share this view, still have a powerful voice int he governments of powerful nations.

Bush reacted to a singular event in modern history. His push into Iraq turned out to be a stupendous blunder that America will be paying for for decades. But GWB's been gone 5 years now and perhaps you could show me this apocalyptic influence you see in western governments today? Government in the west is far from being restrained or guided by undue Christian influences. Has it ever occurred to you that in all your adult life you've only seen ONE great power moving and shaping the world and so have been able to critique it sort of in a vacuum - with no real competing power to observe? I grew up watching a death struggle between communism and the west - a very real - end in a flash sort of conflict. I hope your sense of justice is prepared for a great hit when America's remaining power wanes and China or the EU gain ascendancy.

[Yamato]

Bush reacted to a singular event in modern history. His push into Iraq turned out to be a stupendous blunder that America will be paying for for decades. But GWB's been gone 5 years now and perhaps you could show me this apocalyptic influence you see in western governments today? Government in the west is far from being restrained or guided by undue Christian influences.

Then why are you arguing for the same government on the basis of your Christianity over this issue? Because it's not far from being restrained by due Christian influences?

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

You're not very bright are you?

Junior, I have more knowledge about the events in the Levant, since '47, in my baby finger than you have in your whole body

If you jump me with a baseball bat or knife and I take it from you and bludgeon you nearly to death - stopping because the cops make me - then you think you have a right to demand I give you the bat and knife BACK, while paying your medical bills?

My friend, there has NEVER been a Palestinian army, not then, not now.

Israel - AS I HAVE POINTED OUT - has been shown to be the aggressor, by there own admission.

In 1947, Jewish terrorist groups forcibly removed 600,000+ unarmed innocent men, women and children from 400+ towns and villages in Mandated Palestine. The terrorist Jews wanted the *land*, that is why they did it. They were never under attack by Palestinian muslims because those people

had nothing to attack *with*. Please stop lying about this. There never was anything innocent about the Zionists in the Levant. EVER.

In 1967, Israel had tanks, jets, missiles - everything the USA could give them. And the Israeli army finished taking the entire Levant and forcibly removing all the Muslims in the lands the Israeli's wanted.

You say the Israelis *defended* themselves? Those gutless cowards Israelis were not AT ALL being attacked by the women and children that Israeli Nazis forcibly removed from their homes.

Please stop lying.

Every scrap of land (beyond the original partition) that Israeli sits (or builds) on came to them not by conquest on their part but by opportunity from their enemies repeatedly in keystone cops fashion attempting to destroy them.

Again, you mischaracterize it.

The "keystone cops" were doing what anyone else would, including YOU.

Fighting to get their stolen property back. you keep totally ignoring, Israel STOLE LAND.

that is what this war is about. they are GUILTY.

Everybody has a right to defend themselves and their land. Everybody.

When you tell me that the crack IDF troops had to "defend themselves" from Muslim women and children, elderly people, disabled people, - then you are clearly delusional or lying.

When the Arab states, or Hamas or Hezbollah try again, Israel will grow larger and I sincerely hope that they will officially annex all of the west bank as soon as the sanctions begin to bite. In for a penny, in for a pound as they say.

good luck. Because when the dust settles in the ME, and the Muslim Brotherhood in all the Arab countries unite, Israel is in trouble.

When the West comes to its senses and joins the ME countries in boycotting Israel, and when the world embargoes Israel and totally isolates and ostracizes her,,, ,things will change.

you keep telling yourself Israel is totally innocent!

because it is that type of ignorance that keeps the possibility of WWIII alive.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Actually if Israel was to occupy Saudi Arabia, i'd be all for that. It'd be interesting to see what they made of it in Washington, seeing that the K of SA is a Loyal Ally.

And Iraq too, come to that. What would Washington think of that?

And if Israel took over the UAE, would that mean that El Al would take over Emirates?

And El Al took over Emirates, I'd stop rooting for Arsenal. (sponsored by Emerites Air)

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

And a God which is a very, very narrow and - this is the point - a very, very personal view of God. It seems to be essentially "My God" (this very, very old fashioned view of the old fire-and-brimstone vengeful God merrily Smiting all in every direction) "will triumph over everyone else's God, because my God is the only true one, because that's how I choose to interpret particular books of the Old Testament and/or the Book of Revelation". When individual people believe this, it may be disturbing, but no harm done, but if senior politicians and leaders of nations believe it, it does have the potential to tempt them to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it. Perhaps the nearest we've come to that so far was the Presidency of G.W. Bush, but it is still worth remembering that this lobby, those who share this view, still have a powerful voice int he governments of powerful nations.

Colonel, anyone that thinks God actually favors one *race* of humans over the other has a severe ego problem.

These people truly SUCK. I generally put them into the category of the Arien Nation loons, the White Supremist loons,

and the KKK-ers, and all the other bigots that truly think their kind and of course, their God is supreme

[+and-then]

Colonel, anyone that thinks God actually favors one *race* of humans over the other has a severe ego problem.

These people truly SUCK. I generally put them into the category of the Arien Nation loons, the White Supremist loons,

and the KKK-ers, and all the other bigots that truly think their kind and of course, their God is supreme

That's because you are unwilling to be honest about those you are mis-characterizing. People who follow Christ's commands do not act like any of those groups you just listed. It is completely possible to believe very earnestly in the God of the bible and his supremacy, yet not hate or harm anyone. I've never intentionally harmed anyone in my life. Not ONCE. I have zero doubt as to the supreme sovereignty of God and I know he says in his word to love your enemies. Those who hate are obviously not following his commands. You are clumping everyone together because you refuse to distinguish one from another. In no other similar situation would you be allowed such misrepresentation of the motives and actions of a group.

[Yamato]

That's because you are unwilling to be honest about those you are mis-characterizing. People who follow Christ's commands do not act like any of those groups you just listed. It is completely possible to believe very earnestly in the God of the bible and his supremacy, yet not hate or harm anyone. I've never intentionally harmed anyone in my life. Not ONCE. I have zero doubt as to the supreme sovereignty of God and I know he says in his word to love your enemies. Those who hate are obviously not following his commands. You are clumping everyone together because you refuse to distinguish one from another. In no other similar situation would you be allowed such misrepresentation of the motives and actions of a group.

Not to risk the obvious, but you're not supporting what Christ commanded you to do, you're supporting what Christ commanded you not to do. Which makes the "Christianity" defense of these anti-Christian policies so absurd.

"Hate" doesn't manifest itself by claiming it, it is proven through action. And oppression is one of the most insidious of hateful actions there is.

There aren't two standards for two groups of humans here. There is one standard good enough for all of God's children. And if you knew enough about Christ, you'd know that includes everyone.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

That's because you are unwilling to be honest about those you are mis-characterizing. People who follow Christ's commands do not act like any of those groups you just listed.

I tired very politely (I think?) to tell you that if you really followed the word of Christ and the ten commandments of God, you would not support such barbaric treatment and abuse of innocent

people that the Israelis have metered out to the Palestinians all these years.

Before the Zionist movement grew legs after WWII, the Palestinian people were about as peaceful

a people as you would want to meet.

What you see of them today, is what they turned into when Israel raped them.

And by the way, the Arien Nation, KKK-ers and White Supremists are milquetoast compared to the IDF and the ruling Lukid Party

It is completely possible to believe very earnestly in the God of the bible and his supremacy, yet not hate or harm anyone.

It's possible but that is not what we see here.

I think you labor under the impression that when Israel religiously cleansed Palestine and stole land and homes, that no hate or harm was done to anyone.

Wanna' pray on that and see what the Big Guy says?

I've never intentionally harmed anyone in my life. Not ONCE. I have zero doubt as to the supreme sovereignty of God and I know he says in his word to love your enemies. Those who hate are obviously not following his commands. You are clumping everyone together because you refuse to distinguish one from another. In no other similar situation would you be allowed such misrepresentation of the motives and actions of a group.

I see.

Well, I do know the Israelis general HATE Muslims.Yes? Hell the Zionists even hate the Sephardic Jews! And I am not saying this to be flippant, it's true.

So, the hate is there.

Now the physical harm. that is so grossly obvious as to be laughable to feel compelled to point it out.

Like I told you before, "Thou Shalt Not Kill, Thou Shalt Not Steal".

If Israel lived by those commands, they would own 52% of Palestine and the Palestinians would have a HOME.

[+and-then]

I tired very politely (I think?) to tell you that if you really followed the word of Christ and the ten commandments of God, you would not support such barbaric treatment and abuse of innocent

people that the Israelis have metered out to the Palestinians all these years.

Before the Zionist movement grew legs after WWII, the Palestinian people were about as peaceful

a people as you would want to meet.

What you see of them today, is what they turned into when Israel raped them.

And by the way, the Arien Nation, KKK-ers and White Supremists are milquetoast compared to the IDF and the ruling Lukid Party

It's possible but that is not what we see here.

I think you labor under the impression that when Israel religiously cleansed Palestine and stole land and homes, that no hate or harm was done to anyone.

Wanna' pray on that and see what the Big Guy says?

I see.

Well, I do know the Israelis general HATE Muslims.Yes? Hell the Zionists even hate the Sephardic Jews! And I am not saying this to be flippant, it's true.

So, the hate is there.

Now the physical harm. that is so grossly obvious as to be laughable to feel compelled to point it out.

Like I told you before, "Thou Shalt Not Kill, Thou Shalt Not Steal".

If Israel lived by those commands, they would own 52% of Palestine and the Palestinians would have a HOME.

You live in a fantasy world where Palestinians are reasonable people and will honor agreements. It just isn't so. PROVABLY not so. Every time Israel has vacated land they have been attacked harder. EVERY TIME. Do you really believe the outcome will change this time? The solution that you, Yam, the Col and a few others desire to see is an Israel that is either GONE or living Dhimmi to a Muslim state. You act as though Israel invaded and took the land they were sitting on in 1948. Everything that came afterward has been about the Arab neighboring states refusing to allow Jews to have a state in Palestine. If at any point along the way they had desired peace then Israel would have ( reluctantly) made peace. They believe all the land is their's but only a small element would have continued like terrorists to acquire it I think. The Palestinians and the other Arab Muslim states surrounding Israel are corrupt and lawless and only the Libs in the west that hate Israel give two damns about them. Israel will remain. If they get backed into a corner far enough I suspect their real estate holdings will grow again.

[Yamato]

The solution that you, Yam, the Col and a few others desire to see is an Israel that is either GONE or living Dhimmi to a Muslim state.

No man that's not true at all. In my own idealistic version of a utopian Israel, it would be a cosmopolitan state where all religions could live together and share the exact same freedoms and rights as anyone else. I would like to visit there someday, for so many reasons. I wish/hope my parents get to see it. If the government and settlement mentality were completely different than they are, I could even fall in love with it and want to move there.

And I know what you're thinking. You're going to respond with demographics and religion and this underlying need to propagate one race/religion over others. They (and by "they" I mean Zionist Ashkenazis not observant Semitic Jews) can do that here, if that's what they're into. I don't prefer the open and bold approach to something I admit we all probably do, but I respect the freedom of others enough to tolerate it in my own neighborhood.

They're free to move here if they're somewhere else and can't do it there. And I'm only responsible for here, as are you.

I think that's an accurate summary of my thoughts and feelings on this. So before you butcher my character like that again, remember it.

[Space Commander Travis]

The solution that you, Yam, the Col and a few others desire to see is an Israel that is either GONE or living Dhimmi to a Muslim state.

oh bloody hell man, I thought you'd started to become moderately sensible on that after I tried to explain before, but you always leap back to your default "they hate the Jews!!" position. There really is no trying to explain anything to you.

[RoofGardener]

Junior, I have more knowledge about the events in the Levant, since '47, in my baby finger than you have in your whole body

Sadly, EoT, what you appear to have is the same old preconceptionsl

My friend, there has NEVER been a Palestinian army, not then, not now.

How about the Palestinian Liberation Organisation ? It was capable of platoon-level actions against Israel, and against civilians around the world.

Indeed, it was capable of Brigade-size operations, as we discovered when it tried to overthrow Jordan, and subsequently occupied and virtually destroyed Lebannon.

Israel - AS I HAVE POINTED OUT - has been shown to be the aggressor, by there own admission.

Israel was never the aggressor, at least not at the strategic level.

In 1947, Jewish terrorist groups forcibly removed 600,000+ unarmed innocent men, women and children from 400+ towns and villages in Mandated Palestine.

Utterly wrong. There where tit-for-tat attacks between Arabs and Jews from 1920-1947, but no mass expulsions. The main exodus of Arabs from Mandate Palestine occured when - and only when - the Arab League armies attacked in 1948. The bulk of the Arabs fled of their own volition, not wanting to be in the middle of a major war. Forced expulsions where a tiny minority, and usually restricted to villages essential for strategic defence against the advancing armies, or which had declared hostility against the Jewish state and an intention to fight on the Arab side.

The largest ethnic group to be FORCED out of their homes was - the Jews ! Those in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Libya, Morroco etc. The Muslim governments where VERY quick to enact petty vengeance against them for Israel's refusal to die.

The terrorist Jews wanted the *land*, that is why they did it. They were never under attack by Palestinian muslims because those people

had nothing to attack *with*

Except the massed armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq etc .... over 1000 tanks, 2000 AFV/IFV, 1000 artillary pieces, hundreds of jet bomber aircraft, and almost 200,000 troops. Or where they somehow airbrushed out of your view of history ?

In 1967, Israel had tanks, jets, missiles - everything the USA could give them.

Ah yes... all that lovely US $$$$ in military assistance. Which hadn't started yet, and wouldn't do in earnest for another six years (in response to the massive Soviet donations to the Syrians).

Most of the Israeli equipment was French or English (or Checkoslovakian). There was probably more American equipment in the Arab armies than there was in the IDF.

And the Israeli army finished taking the entire Levant and forcibly removing all the Muslims in the lands the Israeli's wanted.

And - strangely - giving it straight back again whenever the agressor nation declared a permanant peace treaty. Almost as though that was Israel's gaol all along ? How strange....

Those gutless cowards Israelis were not AT ALL being attacked by the women and children that Israeli Nazis forcibly removed from their homes.

Please stop lying.

Keep on taking the medication... it doesn't seem to have worked yet.

Edited April 23, 2014 by RoofGardener

[Yamato]

Utterly wrong. There where tit-for-tat attacks between Arabs and Jews from 1920-1947, but no mass expulsions. The main exodus of Arabs from Mandate Palestine occured when - and only when - the Arab League armies attacked in 1948. The bulk of the Arabs fled of their own volition, not wanting to be in the middle of a major war. Forced expulsions where a tiny minority, and usually restricted to villages essential for strategic defence against the advancing armies, or which had declared hostility against the Jewish state and an intention to fight on the Arab side.

it was a forced eviction across the board when they weren't allowed to return to their homes.

"The Arabs" again. So because Palestinians were Arab, they were all guilty by extension. Utterly racist.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Sadly, EoT, what you appear to have is the same old preconceptionsl

How about the Palestinian Liberation Organisation ? It was capable of platoon-level actions against Israel, and against civilians around the world.

Before 1967 and the religious cleansing of Mandated Palestine by the Zionists, the PLO

was a small band of 110 politico-business types trying to get Statehood. Egypt held the mandate in Gaza, - Jordan had West Bank. Egypt agreed to Statehood and ran the PLO for the Palestinians, but Jordan was not agreeing to Palestinian Statehood.

Then 1967 came. The brutal Zionists invaded Palestine. It is then that Syria came into the mix, took over control of the PLO, and started to arm and train Palestinian militias. The "peace loving" Palestinians would never know another day of peace since.

And the PLO could send platoons around the world...? what for, LOL!

Their only threat to existence was right in their back yard, the Zionists of Tel Aviv!

Yes, Palestinian people had militias. but that is because what the Zionists buthers did to them in 1947 taught them to always be armed when Zionists are around.

Nice try Gardener.

LOL, militias - against tanks, jets, missiles, helicopters. Come on dude, it was like shooting fish in a barrel

Indeed, it was capable of Brigade-size operations, as we discovered when it tried to overthrow Jordan, and subsequently occupied and virtually destroyed Lebannon.

The Pals "occupied" Lebabnon because *your* peaceful people pushed the Pals OUT of Palestine, pushed them running for their lives. And they won't let them back in.

Israel was never the aggressor, at least not at the strategic level.

Gardener, Israel has *admitted* it, they are teaching to the school that Israel was the aggressor.

I made a post in here a week ago, a vid of an Israeli historian that outlined what Israel did.

They went "neighborhood to neighborhood,,, door to door".

On that point, I am out of this post with you. you're in denial, Gardener.

Utterly wrong. There where tit-for-tat attacks between Arabs and Jews from 1920-1947, but no mass expulsions. The main exodus of Arabs from Mandate Palestine occured when - and only when - the Arab League armies attacked in 1948. The bulk of the Arabs fled of their own volition, not wanting to be in the middle of a major war. Forced expulsions where a tiny minority, and usually restricted to villages essential for strategic defence against the advancing armies, or which had declared hostility against the Jewish state and an intention to fight on the Arab side.

The largest ethnic group to be FORCED out of their homes was - the Jews ! Those in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Libya, Morroco etc. The Muslim governments where VERY quick to enact petty vengeance against them for Israel's refusal to die.

Except the massed armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq etc .... over 1000 tanks, 2000 AFV/IFV, 1000 artillary pieces, hundreds of jet bomber aircraft, and almost 200,000 troops. Or where they somehow airbrushed out of your view of history ?

Ah yes... all that lovely US $$$$ in military assistance. Which hadn't started yet, and wouldn't do in earnest for another six years (in response to the massive Soviet donations to the Syrians).

Most of the Israeli equipment was French or English (or Checkoslovakian). There was probably more American equipment in the Arab armies than there was in the IDF.

And - strangely - giving it straight back again whenever the agressor nation declared a permanant peace treaty. Almost as though that was Israel's gaol all along ? How strange....

Keep on taking the medication... it doesn't seem to have worked yet.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

You live in a fantasy world where Palestinians are reasonable people and will honor agreements. It just isn't so. PROVABLY not so.

Not now, they won't honor agreements with Israel.

Did Israel honor its agreement by staying within the "Jewish Homeland" - and OUT of Mandated Palestine? NO. Provably so.

So the Pals will never honor an agreement with Israel. Not hard to understand.

Wanna know who threw the first stone..? go back to 1947.

600,000 Pals displaced out of 400+ villages and towns.

That wrong has never been reconciled. And *that* is why Israel will never get anywhere with the Pals.

Every time Israel has vacated land they have been attacked harder. EVERY TIME. Do you really believe the outcome will change this time? The solution that you, Yam, the Col and a few others desire to see is an Israel that is either GONE or living Dhimmi to a Muslim state. You act as though Israel invaded and took the land they were sitting on in 1948.

I act that way because that is exactly what happened. Perhaps you have missed the number of times

in here that I have pointed that out. Yes, Gardener, Israel stomped all over the Pals in 1947, really

screwed them.

Everything that came afterward has been about the Arab neighboring states refusing to allow Jews to have a state in Palestine.

That is because if invading foreign Jews want to dictate to the locals that *they* cannot have a Pal state, why should the Arabs let the invaders have one?

If at any point along the way they had desired peace then Israel would have ( reluctantly) made peace. They believe all the land is their's but only a small element would have continued like terrorists to acquire it I think. The Palestinians and the other Arab Muslim states surrounding Israel are corrupt and lawless

LOL, you make me laugh! And what is Israel, the Industrial Strength Religious Cleanser?

LOL

and only the Libs in the west that hate Israel give two damns about them. Israel will remain. If they get backed into a corner far enough I suspect their real estate holdings will grow again.

[Yamato]

So we are left with the question: If the Shavit is for orbital insertion, what is the Jericho 3 (and its predecessors) for ?

Of course, the entire multi-billion Jericho program could be a bluff to make the world think that Israel has nuclear weapons. If so, it is a remarkably expensive one.

So too then are Iranian rockets, either just a bluff or serving no other purpose than failing to go orbital or nuclear. So again, no, rocket programs serve more purposes than that. And while you admit it's all conjecture, you presume that Israel's alleged ICBMs aren't going to be equipped with Israel's alleged nuclear warheads? That is just conjecture built on top of conjecture. How can you presume anything about something that you don't know anything about? I mean other than the nuclear hypocrisy of supporting Israel cart blanch of course...

Her neighbors haven't been overly inclined to take the risk so far.

Nuclear deterrence works like that. Religion ethnicity or politics notwithstanding, it's the same for any country. There's political capital in the belief that one has these weapons and is willing to use them. That's part of what keeps the daily grind of oppression you want in the occupied Palestinian territories intact. Along with all the threats of attacking Iran since Iran doesn't have these weapons.

[RoofGardener]

So too then are Iranian rockets, either just a bluff or serving no other purpose than failing to go orbital or nuclear. So again, no, rocket programs serve more purposes than that. And while you admit it's all conjecture, you presume that Israel's alleged ICBMs aren't going to be equipped with Israel's alleged nuclear warheads?

Thats a bit of a muddled sentence Yamato: could you explain it properly ? The bulk of the Iranian rocket forces are artillary rockets. The Shahab range - however - are like the Israeli Jericho, and only make sense as a nuclear platform. The Iranians have a seperate project to produce a satellite launch vehicle. Of course, this statement only makes sense if the Iranian's where either bluffing, or attempting to produce a nuclear weapon.

Have the Iranians even been known to bluff about a weapons system ? Oh gosh YES.

Are the Iranians attempting to produce nuclear weapons ? Gosh... what do YOU think ?

That is just conjecture built on top of conjecture.

Well, this forum name IS "Unexplained Mysteries" ?

How can you presume anything about something that you don't know anything about? I mean other than the nuclear hypocrisy of supporting Israel cart blanch of course...

Be carefull about assuming what I do - or do not - know, earthling.

[RavenHawk]

Firstly, there is a *rise* in violence to Christians in recent times.

Secondly, if you think you can compare this to teh long term violence Christians have done

to Muslims, I would suggest you are highly prejudice.

You can’t really say there’s been a rise. It has always been constant. It ebbs and flows every couple of centuries or so.

You’re right, I can’t compare. Muslim violence has always been harsher. They’ve had 1400 years to make slavery (Dhimmitude) sound better than sliced bread.

one word :crusades. Christians went *there* to kill and take land.

peaceful Muslims settled in Spain and the Christians of the "religion of peace" totally decimated them.

Those people are up against it. Lebanon would fit into the US several times over.

Now ask Americans if they will take in the same Palestinian refugees that Lebanon does not want

It's so easy to force *other* people to tow the line, eh?

The Umayyads didn’t peacefully settle in Spain. It wasn’t called a “Conquest” for nothing and setup Dhimmitude to a whole new populace that did not understand the treachery. The Crusades was neither the first nor the last contact between the two cultures, but Islam drew first blood with the raids on the Visigoths.

Palestinians are not Americans, they are Arab. Why doesn’t the Arab world want them? Palestine is just 1% of Arab lands. Can’t 2 million refugees in Lebanon absorb into the other 99% (~300million)?

Islam is quite adept at doing that to others.

I don't know for sure what this refers to *but* - If Palestinians flee for their lives, that is a wise

thing because the Butcher Boys of Tel Aviv don't care if the MOOZIE is a man, women or child.

However, their right to go back home is always there. Pig headed Israelis just want to be d!ckheads.

That’s pretty derogatory. But it has its origin. When Jews started to exert their rights broke the Dhimmi covenant and violated several major sins in Islam and threatened the Ummah. That incurred much violence toward the Jew. What could the Jew do in defense? Strike back! Haj Amin al-Husseini was a long time hater of Jews and admired Hitler. He felt such policies were the only way to dispose of the Jew. When his bluff backfired on him, he told his people to flee and flee they did. Their world was about to cave in on them like the way that the Antebellum South fell. From this point on, the Muslim would have to treat the Jew as equals and that violated everything Islam is.

That's a mouthful.

Yes it is. I was trying to stay in the same voice as the question.

But I will say this... every Palestinian has the right to make up their own mind.

NO Mufti or anyone else - or Jew, has the right to kick anyone out of their home,

out of their homeland.

Everyone does have a right to make up their own mind but in this case, the Grand Mufti did it for many. Many did not and stayed and are now part of Israel. If you don’t have a legal deed to the land, you don’t belong and those that didn’t have a legal deed fled. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been there. The Palestinians were offered a chance to make deeds legal with statehood and they rejected it. From 1922 to 1948, the legal land owners had every opportunity to come forward to identify their claim and they never did. That is why that land was declared unorganized territory, which meant everything was starting off with a clean slate. It was a legal land grab. And that allowed Israel to claim statehood. There are no do overs.

Here's the logic,,, the Palestinians were "issued" their land, the Jews, the land of their own.

Israel took it all.

If they were issued land, then they should have taken it and been happy. Because the other way, they were squatters that had no claim to the land.

Israel - I suppose, has the right to keep Palestinians out of their lands defined by the partition.

But not only does Israel have NO SAY in whether Palestinians can live in Mandated Palestine,

the Israelis have NO RIGHT to be in Mandated Palestine.

Jews have more of a right to be in Palestine than the peoples that bear the name and it’s not because of the ancient Jewish claim either. Israel legally owns more land there than the Palestinians do. Part of the reason that the Grand Mufti couldn’t prevent owners from selling land to the Jews was because the rightful owners were absentee, their place of abode were in other countries.

Unless you don't believe in laws.

They are basically poorly armed people who want their land back.

Yes I do, that has been my whole point. It’s been the Palestinian that doesn’t abide by the laws. The majority lost any rights to the land going all the way back to Ottoman rule. Most did not seek to purchase that land they squatted on. Then under British rule, they still did nothing.

Then they need to go to that land. But for the majority of them, it’s not Palestine.

Do you want to compare those acts of violence to what the Jews did to them?

I would imagine that many Jews recall the violence committed on them by the Palestinian when the Jew were poorly armed.

The reason why this luke-warm war has been brewing all these years is because the blasted UN

refuse to enforce its own RULES - no nation can acquire land in an act of war - even if that war is

defensive.

Take a step back and listen to what you said. “No nation can acquire land in an act of war - even if that war is defensive”. That is such a load of bull. This is the way it is done. Long after the UN goes the way of the Dodo, civilization will continue the way it always has. The UN is useless. Any entity that tries to convince the world that the ’47 or even ’67 partition plans are viable is a laughing stock.

The Israelis should have been pushed out of Mandated Palestine long ago, and we would not have

a need to have these long, drawn out threads about the ME.

Why should they have been pushed out long ago? I thought that already happened once or twice. If you don’t like Israel being where it is then complain that the Ottoman Empire should have never allied with Germany. If the Ottomans were still in power then Israel would have never had a chance. But then neither would the Palestinians have their homeland. Or if Faisal’s Pan-Arab nation was established, the Palestinians still wouldn’t have a homeland. If the Balfour Declaration was never proposed, the Palestinians wouldn’t have a homeland as Palestine would have been divided between Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

They rejected ISRAEL's version of statehood.

I’m not familiar with an Israeli version of statehood. I think Israel was happy with sharing until it became obvious that that was impossible. As long as the Jew stayed in their place, Islam was very tolerant. If referencing competition doesn’t violate TOS, this link shows the partition plans that I am aware of:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?672451-Alternate-History-Everybody-cool-with-Palestine-Partition

Israel should be in no place to BARGAIN anything. Just get the FFFF out,. and let the Paletinians

come back home.

Israel fought and clawed its way into a place to bargain against all odds. Despite the hatred and the hostility, they gained a foothold legally. The Palestinian is more than welcome to go back home, wherever that may be. For the most of them, it is not Palestine.

You know these muslim fighters are not afraid to die. their life SUCKS right now.

So what else is there to live for but to make some Zionists' lives SUCK, too.

And for one second, do you think their lives would suck any less if Israel did not exist? Their existence is based on making someone else’s lives suck. That was the catalysts for Black September. That is why they don’t have Lebanese citizenship.

"eye for an eye"

That may not be the best way to live but that is what Israel lives by. Israel has given up on that making a difference so it’s now just a matter of attrition. And in the end, that is the only viable solution.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

RavenHawk, you said a lot.

I'll try to respond this coming week, but not the weekend