Does Israel have a .....

[Yamato]

To risk being too frank, arguing with genocidal mindsets is what draws me to this ME board.

[RoofGardener]

It was an ancient name for the region. This unique rhetorical standard for Israel is interesting, and now an ancient name for the region must also be a nation! Zionism is the most fanatical nationalism so I can understand a Zionist making this kind of nationalistic argument.

Ummm...... aren't we blurring Palestine with Israel/Judea here ? I was arguing that Palestine - in the sense of a nation or unique "peoples" - is a recent innovation; I wasn't talking about Israel.

"Israel" was never the name for a region - it was the name for a specific Nation, with all the trappings of a Nation State, and a recognisable "peoples". (in this case, the Jews.). The same can be said for Judea.

Whether or not this "Legitimises" the creation of a new Israel on the territory of the old one is a debatable point.

I was under the impression that the region was NOT considered important by either the Arab or Turkish invaders. No important Caliphs or Viziers set up their base in Jerusalem, which became something of a backwater. Nor was the Mosque deemed particularly important to Islam. (indeed, it was not originally constructed as a mosque). The Arabs only started to "care" about it with the early rise of Zionism, when Zionists stated the desire to make Jerusalem their future capital city.

[Yamato]

Ummm...... aren't we blurring Palestine with Israel/Judea here ? I was arguing that Palestine - in the sense of a nation or unique "peoples" - is a recent innovation; I wasn't talking about Israel.

Well so is Israel, a recent innovation. So what? Does that determine how we treat Israelis? I don't agree, but even so, then let's treat Palestinians the same way. I don't know what difference there is to blur?

Whether or not this "Legitimises" the creation of a new Israel on the territory of the old one is a debatable point.

Okay, debate it then. Tell me all the good reasons why nations now should bow down to ancient nations that existed thousands of years ago and give away their rights and freedom to them?

I was under the impression that the region was NOT considered important by either the Arab or Turkish invaders. No important Caliphs or Viziers set up their base in Jerusalem, which became something of a backwater. Nor was the Mosque deemed particularly important to Islam. (indeed, it was not originally constructed as a mosque). The Arabs only started to "care" about it with the early rise of Zionism, when Zionists stated the desire to make Jerusalem their future capital city.

Source, please.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

No links, nothing else to follow, just a question---

Where is the evidence that Israel ACTUALLY has nuclear weapons? OK, it is assumed (Internationally) that Israel may have up to 80 Nuclear warheads, but no-one is actually offering any evidence of this - certainly NOT Israel.

So are all the assumptions simply reinforced to dupe the rest of the Middle East (Israel is not european, it is ME) to believe that Israel is Untouchable? To make the rest of the ME believe that Israel has capabilities beyond its ability to deliver?

It is also assumed, on this forum, that Israel DOES have a Nuclear capability, but what if it doesn´t, how does this change the politics in the M.E??

Well, Israel won't admit to a lot of things, of course.

Back in the day, when Israel was trying to hide their nuclear facility in Dimona, they called it

a scientific experimental hydroponic plant laboratory. Then, one day in the not too distant future,

Dimona had a nuke accident and radiation leaked into the atmosphere. You do the math.

I will say this, when it was proposed that the entire Middle East be made a nuclear-free zone,

it was Israel that denounced the idea immediately. Is that a TELL?

ya

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Wrong, Israeli bureaucrats have made threats with nukes. Please do homework! Does ALL your education have to come from other posters here or can you bring some real information that isn't in the form of blind denial of reality? Are you paid to dump your laundry list of incorrect statements about Israel in blase ignorance of what the facts are? You know this. We've been over this. It's more than just being uneducated or having a bad memory I think. I don't know why you even bother denying reality in front of me though. Hopefully I'll go away?

The Bible doesn't say anything about the nation that was created in 1948. And the real Semites are the ones quietly being wiped off the map every day. The Arabs. There's nothing more anti-Semitic than Zionist Israeli policy. They're destroying God's people. God's chosen ones aren't white-skinned Ashkenazi transplants from Europe. Jesus Christ was a brown-eyed brown-skinned Palestinian, like those whom you persecute.

Twue dat.

But Jesus was a Jew... a SAPARHDIC Jew of the Middle East, not one of these white skinned European invaders.

And yes, the Saphardic Jews are Semites, but not the Ashkenazi Jews, who stem from Southern Russia/Ukraine region,

[+and-then]

Twue dat.

But Jesus was a Jew... a SAPARHDIC Jew of the Middle East, not one of these white skinned European invaders.

And yes, the Saphardic Jews are Semites, but not the Ashkenazi Jews, who stem from Southern Russia/Ukraine region,

So the Ashkenazi Jew is illegitimate somehow? Because they desired to return to the land of their ancestors? Because they decided to do whatever it took to keep those who hate them from succeeding next time in eradicating them? The Jews of Israel will never burn alone again. If the world burns because of that fact then so be it. ALL human beings have a right to life - not just some. This delegitimization of Israel due to the ancestry of it's founders is just the same old hatred under a new (and not very convincing) mask.

[Thorvir]

For anyone that doesn't believe Israel has nukes to defend themselves with, put together and invasion force (not of Arabs, or you'll get stopped at the border in embarrassing fashion), invade, do well enough to push Israel to the brink of existence (good luck with that), and force their hand.

I'll be watching for the mushroom plumes from the safety of my home, thank you.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

So the Ashkenazi Jew is illegitimate somehow? Because they desired to return to the land of their ancestors?

I never said at *ALL* - "illegitimate", but clearly the Ashkenazi Jews are not descendants of the Israeli Jews.

European Jews can go wherever they want. Just don't kill people and steal land and homes when you get there.

We would not tolerate that from European Jews in America, why should we allow for it in Palestine?

Because they decided to do whatever it took to keep those who hate them from succeeding next time in eradicating them?

Are you serious dude? please don't play the role of "victim".

The Jews in the soon-to-be Israel went on a terrorist roll against defenseless muslim men women and children, displacing hundreds of thousands, and killing many. At that time, the muslim Palestinians had no army, and precious little to defend themselves.

All the while, only the muslims in Palestine were displaced, the Jews never touched the Christians or existing Jews. So it was never an Israel v. Palestine issue, it was religious cleansing and a Grand Theft LAND issue. That was '46-47.

The Jews of Israel will never burn alone again. If the world burns because of that fact then so be it. ALL human beings have a right to life - not just some.

Really? then leave the muslims ALONE. Give the land back. You're in violation of two UN resolutions ordering you out of the occupied lands of '67, which includes much of Mandated Palestine.

This delegitimization of Israel due to the ancestry of it's founders is just the same old hatred under a new (and not very convincing) mask.uote

You refuse to acknowledge that "Israel" took Mandated Palestine away from the Palestinians.

Out of greed, out of hatred. They had NO RIGHT to remove peaceful Palestinian men women,and children, that is a most disgusting crime, a crime the Israelis will one day pay for.

Keep telling yourself you had to "defend yourself" from little children, sick old men and women.

You went neighborhood to neighborhood, door to door, carefully removing only muslim families,

families with lineage that goes back thousands of years in the area, with houses that they have title to,

and were passed down in the family since the time of Christ.

Defend yourself? Talk to me. Sounds more like a rough equivalent of Nazi Germany.

[+and-then]

I never said at *ALL* - "illegitimate", but clearly the Ashkenazi Jews are not descendants of the Israeli Jews.

European Jews can go wherever they want. Just don't kill people and steal land and homes when you get there.

We would not tolerate that from European Jews in America, why should we allow for it in Palestine?

Are you serious dude? please don't play the role of "victim".

The Jews in the soon-to-be Israel went on a terrorist roll against defenseless muslim men women and children, displacing hundreds of thousands, and killing many. At that time, the muslim Palestinians had no army, and precious little to defend themselves.

All the while, only the muslims in Palestine were displaced, the Jews never touched the Christians or existing Jews. So it was never an Israel v. Palestine issue, it was religious cleansing and a Grand Theft LAND issue. That was '46-47.

Really? then leave the muslims ALONE. Give the land back. You're in violation of two UN resolutions ordering you out of the occupied lands of '67, which includes much of Mandated Palestine.

You refuse to acknowledge that "Israel" took Mandated Palestine away from the Palestinians.

Out of greed, out of hatred. They had NO RIGHT to remove peaceful Palestinian men women,and children, that is a most disgusting crime, a crime the Israelis will one day pay for.

Keep telling yourself you had to "defend yourself" from little children, sick old men and women.

You went neighborhood to neighborhood, door to door, carefully removing only muslim families,

families with lineage that goes back thousands of years in the area, with houses that they have title to,

and were passed down in the family since the time of Christ.

Defend yourself? Talk to me. Sounds more like a rough equivalent of Nazi Germany.

Your position is that the state of Israel is illegitimate - your solution is that they at BEST live dhimmi to a crowd who despise them. Fortunately for today's Jews - Ashkenazim and Sephardim - they do not have to beg others for help - they can deal with the haters just fine when the time comes. Of this I am delighted. The anti Zionist crowd always forget that stories and conflicts always have 2 sides. When Abbas sets the machinery in motion to formalize statehood for Palestine Israel may well consider the time for even attempting peace to be over. They could simply annex the territory and like Ukraine, no one could stop them. They won't do this of course - at least not until the world begins the BDS in real and painful terms. At that point they will have nothing more to lose - it's not like they have any chance to be treated fairly by the UN

[RoofGardener]

.......

The Jews in the soon-to-be Israel went on a terrorist roll against defenseless muslim men women and children, displacing hundreds of thousands, and killing many.

Not true. The Arab mass exodus only started when the Arab League armies attacked.

At that time, the muslim Palestinians had no army, and precious little to defend themselves.

The Palestinians had two defence forces, but sadly they where too busy fighting each other over who should be leader.

Ahem.... Arab League Armies ? Around 30,000 troops, with hundreds of Tanks, Artilliary pieces, heavy machine guns, figher aircraft, and bomber aircraft.

Israel had NON of these things, only rifles, pistols, light machine guns

......You're in violation of two UN resolutions ordering you out of the occupied lands of '67, which includes much of Mandated Palestine.

Presumably this is resolutions 242 and 30-somethingorother ?

Israel is in compliance with those resolutions. It is the Arab side that is in violation of them. Why not try READING those resolutions before trotting out the standard anti-Israel propaganda ?

You refuse to acknowledge that "Israel" took Mandated Palestine away from the Palestinians.

There where no palestinians. They where Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese etc. Palestine didn't - and never had - existed as a nationality. (at least, not back then).

They didn't own "Palestine"... nobody did.

.....

Keep telling yourself you had to "defend yourself" from little children, sick old men and women.

How about the Arab League armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq ? Forgotten those ?

You went neighborhood to neighborhood, door to door, carefully removing only muslim families,

Not true.

families with lineage that goes back thousands of years in the area, with houses that they have title to,

and were passed down in the family since the time of Christ.

Oh PLEASE. Do you REALLY believe that ?

[Yamato]

Your position is that the state of Israel is illegitimate - your solution is that they at BEST live dhimmi to a crowd who despise them. Fortunately for today's Jews - Ashkenazim and Sephardim - they do not have to beg others for help - they can deal with the haters just fine when the time comes. Of this I am delighted. The anti Zionist crowd always forget that stories and conflicts always have 2 sides. When Abbas sets the machinery in motion to formalize statehood for Palestine Israel may well consider the time for even attempting peace to be over. They could simply annex the territory and like Ukraine, no one could stop them. They won't do this of course - at least not until the world begins the BDS in real and painful terms. At that point they will have nothing more to lose - it's not like they have any chance to be treated fairly by the UN

So it sounds like you're in a rout to the fact that there is no ancestral lineage, but you'll get your amnesia and come back in less than 30 days and start spewing the same old nonsense like you never even discussed this.

Today's Jews are anti-Zionists, and Israelis beg the US for help on a regular basis. Check AIPAC and your favorite lobbying group CUFI.

Israel is the most disgusting country on the planet when it comes to policy and rights. It's tyrannical terrorism and it should be struck down anywhere it rears its ugly head.

[Yamato]

And since we're back to talking about Jews again in the usual base defense of Israel's tyranny, let's take a look at some Jews in the news:

[RoofGardener]

Today's Jews are anti-Zionists, and Israelis beg the US for help on a regular basis. Check AIPAC and your favorite lobbying group CUFI.

It is certainly likely that Israel petitions for US support in the United Nations, if only to try and neutralise the grotesque manipulation of that organisation by the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation. Look what they did to the respective Durban conferences.

Israel is the most disgusting country on the planet when it comes to policy and rights.....

Incredible... absolutely incredible. You are comparing Israel with countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Somalia, China, North Korea etc in regard human rights ?

Well, you can have an opinion of course, but I fear that last statement removes your credibility as a rational observer of the world.

[Yamato]

It is certainly likely that Israel petitions for US support in the United Nations, if only to try and neutralise the grotesque manipulation of that organisation by the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation. Look what they did to the respective Durban conferences.

Incredible... absolutely incredible. You are comparing Israel with countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Somalia, China, North Korea etc in regard human rights ?

Well, you can have an opinion of course, but I fear that last statement removes your credibility as a rational observer of the world.

Okay and then's shadow, thank you for your stink opinion about me personally.

Good derail too, but I think Israel is worse when I consider its actions which are unique in the world today, certainly for any democracy in the world today. US politicians and bureaucrats claim that Saudi Arabian problems are largely due to bad policing. That is to say, their laws are okay, they just don't enforce them sufficiently. Israel's laws are genocidal.

[Yamato]

North Korea certainly contends for worst in the world award. But we're sanctioning North Korea to the moon and back. And nobody has ever complained about that. So let's at least be logically consistent here in how we respond to human rights abuses. If North Korea is twice as bad then let's sanction Israel half as much.

[Thorvir]

And since we're back to talking about Jews again in the usual base defense of Israel's tyranny.

It's lies like this that usually keeps me out of the politics and current events sections of forums.

Geez, some people...

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

It is certainly likely that Israel petitions for US support in the United Nations, if only to try and neutralise the grotesque manipulation of that organisation by the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation. Look what they did to the respective Durban conferences.

Incredible... absolutely incredible. You are comparing Israel with countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Somalia, China, North Korea etc in regard human rights ?

Well, you can have an opinion of course, but I fear that last statement removes your credibility as a rational observer of the world.

Can you name me just *ONE* of those horrible countries (they are) that forces people born on the land (citizens by DEFAULT) to move OUT and become stateless people, just because their new *owners* hate them and their religion?

Jut ONE.

Can you name me *ONE* of those horrible countries that have held numerous successful illegal occupations on other people's lands for more than - how long was Hussein in Kuwait....? Oh yeah, three months?

Just ONE.

Face it, Israel is to the Middle East what Nazi Germany was to Europe. One land parcel at a time.

In one swift six day war of '67, Israel - all in the name of "self defence", just *happened* to end up owning Gaza, Sinai, Judea & Sumeria (west bank), Golan, Shebra Farms, Palestinian Jerusalem, all land parcels mentioned in the bible/old testament. And later on, Southern Lebanon, too.

How *kewl* is that!

So because Israel was able to manipulate the Veto wielding crooked cop, USA into preventing a UN coalition of forces being deployed into those occupied lands, Israelis think they actually own those parcels...? And Israel thinks that everything is legal?

bon chance!

You're behind on the rent and the owners want you to move out.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Okay and then's shadow, thank you for your stink opinion about me personally.

Good derail too, but I think Israel is worse when I consider its actions which are unique in the world today, certainly for any democracy in the world today. US politicians and bureaucrats claim that Saudi Arabian problems are largely due to bad policing. That is to say, their laws are okay, they just don't enforce them sufficiently. Israel's laws are genocidal.

Mon amis,

any country that will not allow people born on the land to VOTE... or even be citizens of that country, is not a democracy at all, it is a THUG-ocracy.

"As you were, before you were..."

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

North Korea certainly contends for worst in the world award. But we're sanctioning North Korea to the moon and back. And nobody has ever complained about that. So let's at least be logically consistent here in how we respond to human rights abuses. If North Korea is twice as bad then let's sanction Israel half as much.

<GRIN>

Have I ever told you about the amazing power of the United States of Israel? they can do *anything*!

They're awesome, man!

[RavenHawk]

Okay and then's shadow, thank you for your stink opinion about me personally.

I don’t think he’s and then’s shadow. It’s just that people can come off the street and read the crap you put out and recognize it for what it is.

[RavenHawk]

North Korea certainly contends for worst in the world award. But we're sanctioning North Korea to the moon and back. And nobody has ever complained about that. So let's at least be logically consistent here in how we respond to human rights abuses. If North Korea is twice as bad then let's sanction Israel half as much.

Real good logic there. By that reasoning, then we should sanction Islam 100 times as much.

[RoofGardener]

Can you name me just *ONE* of those horrible countries (they are) that forces people born on the land (citizens by DEFAULT) to move OUT and become stateless people, just because their new *owners* hate them and their religion?

Jut ONE.

Not quite in the terms you put it, but then I'd argue that is not what happened to the Arab Palestinians anyway.

Can you name me *ONE* of those horrible countries that have held numerous successful illegal occupations on other people's lands for more than - how long was Hussein in Kuwait....? Oh yeah, three months?

Hmmm... weeeeell...... North Korea and China, certainly. Closer to the Middle East, I would also suggest Jordan (which is currently occupying Arab Palestinian land, having evicted over 100,000 Palestinians back in the 1970's), also Egypt (occupied Gaza), Saudi Arabia (annexed the Kingdom of Hejaz), Syria (occupied the Lebannon between 1976 and 2005).

Kuwait didn't occupy anybody, but it DID evict around 200,000 Palestinians after the invasion for supporting Saddam Hussein.

Face it, Israel is to the Middle East what Nazi Germany was to Europe. One land parcel at a time.

Show me one example of Nazi Germany giving back land in return for peace treaties ?

In one swift six day war of '67, Israel - all in the name of "self defence", just *happened* to end up owning Gaza, Sinai, Judea & Sumeria (west bank), Golan, Shebra Farms, Palestinian Jerusalem, all land parcels mentioned in the bible/old testament. And later on, Southern Lebanon, too.

Most of which was returned in return for peace treaties.

So because Israel was able to manipulate the Veto wielding crooked cop, USA into preventing a UN coalition of forces being deployed into those occupied lands, Israelis think they actually own those parcels...? And Israel thinks that everything is legal?

There was no intervention force for the simple reason that Israel complied with the UN resolutions about returning the land. However, these resolutions also required the Arab states to recognise Israel, and declare a permanent peace. The Arabs refused to do this, and broke their part of the resolutions. (the Palestine National Authority STILL refuses to grant recognition, as does - I believe - Syria).

There is also the matter of precedence and behaviour.

When Syria controlled the Golan Heights, they brought up extravagant quantities of artillery, and started shelling Israel.

When Israel controlled the heights, there was peace. (well... mostly...).

When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, there was a UN resolution leading to a ceasefire. Part of this resolution mandated access to the Holy Sites. Jordan promptly broke this resolution, banned access to the Temple Mount to Jews and - indeed - destroyed a number of sites of both religious and historic importance.

When Israel controlled East Jerusalem (as it does now), access to the sites was unrestricted (indeed, Muslims where given priority over Jews).

I could go on. The Muslim Arab population had a reputation within the UN of breaking promises and being poor custodians.

Israel, on the other hand, kept its promises for the most part, and where relatively trustworthy curators. (shhhh.... don't mention the settlements...).

So, to summarise:

We have Israel, a democracy, which mostly obeyed UN resolutions, and behaved in a relatively civilised manner (under the circumstances).

And you have the Arabs, a series of theocracies, monarchies and dictators, who broke the resolutions and behaved like barbarians.

And you're going to send a UN force against Israel ?

Edited April 13, 2014 by RoofGardener

[+and-then]

Not quite in the terms you put it, but then I'd argue that is not what happened to the Arab Palestinians anyway.

Hmmm... weeeeell...... North Korea and China, certainly. Closer to the Middle East, I would also suggest Jordan (which is currently occupying Arab Palestinian land, having evicted over 100,000 Palestinians back in the 1970's), also Egypt (occupied Gaza), Saudi Arabia (annexed the Kingdom of Hejaz), Syria (occupied the Lebannon between 1976 and 2005).

Kuwait didn't occupy anybody, but it DID evict around 200,000 Palestinians after the invasion for supporting Saddam Hussein.

Show me one example of Nazi Germany giving back land in return for peace treaties ?

Most of which was returned in return for peace treaties.

There was no intervention force for the simple reason that Israel complied with the UN resolutions about returning the land. However, these resolutions also required the Arab states to recognise Israel, and declare a permanent peace. The Arabs refused to do this, and broke their part of the resolutions. (the Palestine National Authority STILL refuses to grant recognition, as does - I believe - Syria).

There is also the matter of precedence and behaviour.

When Syria controlled the Golan Heights, they brought up extravagant quantities of artillery, and started shelling Israel.

When Israel controlled the heights, there was peace. (well... mostly...).

When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, there was a UN resolution leading to a ceasefire. Part of this resolution mandated access to the Holy Sites. Jordan promptly broke this resolution, banned access to the Temple Mount to Jews and - indeed - destroyed a number of sites of both religious and historic importance.

When Israel controlled East Jerusalem (as it does now), access to the sites was unrestricted (indeed, Muslims where given priority over Jews).

I could go on. The Muslim Arab population had a reputation within the UN of breaking promises and being poor custodians.

Israel, on the other hand, kept its promises for the most part, and where relatively trustworthy curators. (shhhh.... don't mention the settlements...).

So, to summarise:

We have Israel, a democracy, which mostly obeyed UN resolutions, and behaved in a relatively civilised manner (under the circumstances).

And you have the Arabs, a series of theocracies, monarchies and dictators, who broke the resolutions and behaved like barbarians.

And you're going to send a UN force against Israel ?

They'd LOVE to. The only problem is that the UN is feckless and impotent. The Israel haters here don't even realize the double standards they routinely employ - they actually think they're standing up for the underdog...

[dr no]

Real good logic there. By that reasoning, then we should sanction Islam 100 times as much.

How do you lay sanctions against a religion?

[RoofGardener]

Well, you could give all their worshippers "second-class citizen status".... make it illegal for them to worship in public, make it illegal for them to print - or import - copies of their scripture, make it illegal for them to build churches - or renovate existing churches. You could give them secondary legal status - e.g. followers of the sanctioned religion have their testimony automatically devalued in court. This would be particularly effective in civil cases, as it means their contracts could be broken without recourse, crippling their ability to to business outside of their own religious followers. It would also be handy in murder cases, as you could murder a follower of the 'sanctioned' religion, even in front of witnesses, and get away with it. (providing the witnesses where also followers of the sanctioned religion).

Obviously, any country embodying such laws would be shunned by the civilised world.

Umm... unless.. they had lots of Oil.