Dead Weight Platform Launches :(

[Davros of Skaro]

Something seems to be wrong with your reading comprehension. I didn´t took the air launch system into question. Again, I just confuted you initial claim, that the NASA Space Shuttles could have been air launched. Just that and nothing else. And there is no need for me to look thru your provided links for teaching purposes as I´m well aware about the technologies and that since the times before YT already.

LOL! They concepted the air launch to orbit system, but went with the conventional launch due to several factors, and the space race did not stop with the Moon landings.

I don’t think you really want me to comment that. But anyway, the future of air launch systems will be formed by economic facts and not by technical possibilities.

Air launch systems are the future.

DARPA XS1 payload is <2tons, so not an option to bring manned shuttles like the Space Shuttle into orbit.

Paving the way for bigger systems, and multi-mission objectives.

[toast]

LOL! They concepted the air launch to orbit system, but went with the conventional launch due to several factors, and the space race did not stop with the Moon landings.

Air launch systems are the future. Paving the way for bigger systems, and multi-mission objectives.

The future in space flight technology is as always designed by the knowledge of educated professionals and not on verbal formulas of individuals.

[Davros of Skaro]

The future in space flight technology is as always designed by the knowledge of educated professionals and not on verbal formulas of individuals.

Aye Aye captain Obvious Nay Nay.

[Peter B]

Davros said:

Do you actually think thrift is in the minds of Government agencies????????? o.O

I replied:

Possibly not. But I bet it is in the minds of people in private companies who want their satellites launched.

Do you think their engineers can do the sums?

Davros said:

I do not know what you mean by "sums"...

Very simply, even if thrift is not in the minds of government agencies, I'm fairly sure it's in the minds of people in private companies who want satellites launched.

...but to answer your other question check out this link.

http://www.stratolaunch.com/news.html

I don't doubt that there are private companies out there offering, or proposing to offer, Air Launch To Orbit (ALTO) services.

My comment, however, was in relation to private companies which want satellites launched, not the private companies offering launching services. Companies wanting to launch satellites will pay a lot of attention to the cost of launching those satellites. If ALTO service is so much cheaper than old-style rocket launches, then simple economics suggests it will become the launch method of choice.

My point, therefore, is that ALTO services aren't being held back by obstructive governments - there are likely to be plenty of private customers who'd leap at ALTO services if they're cheaper than old-style rockets (and at least as reliable). Rather, it seems that engineering limits are the problem: Pegasus is the only system in operation at the moment, and its launch mass to Low Earth Orbit (LEO) is only 440kg. The limit for Stratolaunch is just over 6 tons (and its launch plane will have 6 engines and be about the largest plane in the world). By contrast, the "stone age" Falcon 9 can already launch 13 tons into LEO.

[Davros of Skaro]

Davros said:

I replied:

Davros said:

Very simply, even if thrift is not in the minds of government agencies, I'm fairly sure it's in the minds of people in private companies who want satellites launched.

I don't doubt that there are private companies out there offering, or proposing to offer, Air Launch To Orbit (ALTO) services.

My comment, however, was in relation to private companies which want satellites launched, not the private companies offering launching services. Companies wanting to launch satellites will pay a lot of attention to the cost of launching those satellites. If ALTO service is so much cheaper than old-style rocket launches, then simple economics suggests it will become the launch method of choice.

My point, therefore, is that ALTO services aren't being held back by obstructive governments - there are likely to be plenty of private customers who'd leap at ALTO services if they're cheaper than old-style rockets (and at least as reliable). Rather, it seems that engineering limits are the problem: Pegasus is the only system in operation at the moment, and its launch mass to Low Earth Orbit (LEO) is only 440kg. The limit for Stratolaunch is just over 6 tons (and its launch plane will have 6 engines and be about the largest plane in the world). By contrast, the "stone age" Falcon 9 can already launch 13 tons into LEO.

The Stratolaunch will be the largest plane in wingspan.

With commercial success of the Virgin Galactic, and maybe the Lynx Spaceplane in the future, I hope future designers will look back on the concepts of the past.

Hybrid air intake jet engines that switch over to oxygen mixed fuels at altitudes higher than 25 miles.Flying wings that jettison the outer wings (parachute recoverable) at altitude to reveal a shuttle craft.Possible countries working together instead of doing there own thing?

It's only a matter of time when air to launch systems, and spaceplanes will be common place.I have my own reasons to believe such systems are in effect by the US, but you people think I am kooky enough.

Here is something else to "NAY!" about.

[Peter B]

The Stratolaunch will be the largest plane in wingspan.

And yet, as I pointed out, it will be able to launch only half the mass into Low Earth Orbit that the Falcon 9 already can.

In other words, the Stratolaunch is pushing the limits of aeronautics - we're going to have a devil of a time making bigger planes. So 6 tons to LEO looks to be close to the limit.

Within that limit, I have little doubt Air Launch To Orbit will prove to be a cheaper and more flexible way of launching smaller satellites than rockets are at the moment. But for satellites larger than 6 tons (or much smaller masses for satellites intended for geosynchronous orbits) then ALTO simply won't be big enough.

With commercial success of the Virgin Galactic, and maybe the Lynx Spaceplane in the future, I hope future designers will look back on the concepts of the past.

No doubt. Engineers are a pragmatic bunch.

Hybrid air intake jet engines that switch over to oxygen mixed fuels at altitudes higher than 25 miles.Flying wings that jettison the outer wings (parachute recoverable) at altitude to reveal a shuttle craft.Possible countries working together instead of doing there own thing?

There are apparently some fiendish engineering problems with the Skylon engines. Consider that they've been in some sort of development since around 2000, but I understand nothing close to a working engine has yet been demonstrated. By contrast SpaceX was only founded in 2002 and its Merlin engines have already gone from design to commercial use. Skylon's engines may be the way of the future (although I've read comments which are skeptical from an engineering point of view, such as http://www.apollohoa...g12324#msg12324) but they're going to be extremely expensive to develop, and that in turn is going to increase the cost of launches when/if they're ever made to work.

It's only a matter of time when air to launch systems, and spaceplanes will be common place.

Air launch, yes, particularly if this Stratolaunch system can be made to work. Spaceplanes like Skylon, I'm a little more doubtful.

Incidentally, I had a look at the video you linked from Andrews Space about their plans for the Gryphon spaceplane. I then had a look at their website and found nothing mentioned about it in the last two years of their news items. For a company which appears to manufacture only small components of spacecraft, it's a mighty big leap to designing and building a spaceplane. I wonder if it's a dream which has quietly died.

I have my own reasons to believe such systems are in effect by the US, but you people think I am kooky enough.

I beg your pardon, I don't understand what you're saying: "such systems are in effect by the US"? Could you explain that, please.

Here is something else to "NAY!" about.

I'm no expert on the electrolysis of water, but I understand that these systems suffer from corrosion which quickly reduces their efficiency. In any case, we'd be talking about huge amounts of electrolysis to produce the amount of hydrogen needed by a rocket. I assume you're talking about systems like this to produce hydrogen on the ground, rather than on the spacecraft?

[media=]

Now this looks interesting. But, as I said, I'm no expert.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Peter B

[Davros of Skaro]

And yet, as I pointed out, it will be able to launch only half the mass into Low Earth Orbit that the Falcon 9 already can.

In other words, the Stratolaunch is pushing the limits of aeronautics - we're going to have a devil of a time making bigger planes. So 6 tons to LEO looks to be close to the limit.

Check out my posts on the Antonov 225.It has 200+ ton payload capabilities, and Russia was going to have a scaled down shuttle system (MAKS) , but Communism fell.

Within that limit, I have little doubt Air Launch To Orbit will prove to be a cheaper and more flexible way of launching smaller satellites than rockets are at the moment. But for satellites larger than 6 tons (or much smaller masses for satellites intended for geosynchronous orbits) then ALTO simply won't be big enough.

Let's see what the next decade, or decades bring?

There are apparently some fiendish engineering problems with the Skylon engines. Consider that they've been in some sort of development since around 2000, but I understand nothing close to a working engine has yet been demonstrated. By contrast SpaceX was only founded in 2002 and its Merlin engines have already gone from design to commercial use. Skylon's engines may be the way of the future (although I've read comments which are skeptical from an engineering point of view, such as http://www.apollohoa...g12324#msg12324) but they're going to be extremely expensive to develop, and that in turn is going to increase the cost of launches when/if they're ever made to work.

Thanks for the info, and link.

Air launch, yes, particularly if this Stratolaunch system can be made to work. Spaceplanes like Skylon, I'm a little more doubtful.

Incidentally, I had a look at the video you linked from Andrews Space about their plans for the Gryphon spaceplane. I then had a look at their website and found nothing mentioned about it in the last two years of their news items. For a company which appears to manufacture only small components of spacecraft, it's a mighty big leap to designing and building a spaceplane. I wonder if it's a dream which has quietly died.

That sucks.

I beg your pardon, I don't understand what you're saying: "such systems are in effect by the US"? Could you explain that, please.

I know my eyewitness is not proof, but I have seen things in space (at night) doing manuevers (90 deg turns), and weird things with greenish contrails (deep space no manuevers) on different occasions (NE U.S.) in the late 80's to early 90's.

I think they were the outcome of the X-15 programs of the 60's???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_X-15

I cannot prove what I had seen.I would not put it past the government to have a secret space program.All I can say is if you see a satellite in the sky at night keep an eye on it, and especially if you happen to see one in the break of heavy cloud cover.

I'm no expert on the electrolysis of water, but I understand that these systems suffer from corrosion which quickly reduces their efficiency. In any case, we'd be talking about huge amounts of electrolysis to produce the amount of hydrogen needed by a rocket. I assume you're talking about systems like this to produce hydrogen on the ground, rather than on the spacecraft?

Now this looks interesting. But, as I said, I'm no expert.

Yes I know about the corrosion, but wonder if pure water (no minerals except the conducter salt, or calcium etc), Gold anode, and Cathode would work?Yes this would be for the ground to fuel city Buses, or short range vehicles due to the gas has to be compressed.Search "hho generator" for more info.

[Peter B]

I said:

...as I pointed out, [stratolaunch] will be able to launch only half the mass into Low Earth Orbit that the Falcon 9 already can.

In other words, the Stratolaunch is pushing the limits of aeronautics - we're going to have a devil of a time making bigger planes. So 6 tons to LEO looks to be close to the limit.

Davros replied:

Check out my posts on the Antonov 225.It has 200+ ton payload capabilities, and Russia was going to have a scaled down shuttle system (MAKS) , but Communism fell.

Yes, but have a look at the specs of the Pegasus II rocket the Stratolaunch is intended to carry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_II_%28rocket%29):

With an expected gross weight over 211,000 kg (465,000 pounds), its payload to low-Earth orbit (LEO) is projected to be 6,100 kg (13,500 pounds).

In other words, the Stratolaunch will be able to carry roughly the same size rocket as the Antonov.

[Davros of Skaro]

I said:

Davros replied:

Yes, but have a look at the specs of the Pegasus II rocket the Stratolaunch is intended to carry (http://en.wikipedia....sus_II_(rocket)):

In other words, the Stratolaunch will be able to carry roughly the same size rocket as the Antonov.

Well since the Strato/Peg system is a go, it will be the measuring rod to go by.The MAKS system was projected to be a scaled down shuttle with a 7 ton payload.

http://en.wikipedia....KS_(spacecraft)

I am looking foreward to the success of future missions of Virgin Galactic, and Pegasus II for air launch to orbit possibilities down the pike.

I would like to see something like this for an air to launch specific platform, and with less drag from a tail assembly.

P.s. Do not expect the B-797 to be at your local airport soon.FAA requires a planes ability to fly without computer aid inwhich such design as of now needs lots of computing power to keep it stable.

Here is something like it in RC form.

Edited December 27, 2013 by davros of skaro

[Davros of Skaro]

Check out "Project Hello Kitty."

This plane is a classic imagination grabber "RC SR-71 Blackbird."