The Eye of Horus resembles the Pineal Gland

[questionmark]

I appreciate it. Same to you, and everyone here.

Let me join in.

[Harry_Dresden]

Attention Kmt_Sesh

Regardless of your new found protestations concerning the brain, and the Egyptian understanding of it...i think that you have been saying all along that the Egyptians were ignorant of much in medicine and especially the brain, cause it suits the academic orthodox view point that the Eye of Horus could not possibly have been influenced artistically by the brain even though the resemblance is uncanny. Even though there's a plethora of information that has been discarded simply because it doesn't fit your view point.

"Herodotus, in the fifth century B.C., wrote this of the Egyptians: "Medicine with them is distributed in the following way: every physician is for one disease and not for several, and the whole country is full of physicians of the eyes; others of the head; others of the teeth; others of the belly, and others of obscure diseases."

And...

"The importance of the brain was well appreciated, and the Smith Papyrus spoke of a sensation of throbbing and fluttering beneath fingers palpating the surface of an injury-exposed living brain. The Papyrus also spoke of the effects on motor functions of brain injury; the results were seen to be different depending on which side was injured."

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/6310/1/Ancient-Egypt.html

Egyptians assigned doctors to specialise in the study and treatment of the brain. They wrote about it. Left a medical record (and RA only knows how many other records are lost to us or waiting to be found), about such things as the effects of motor function, which shows the great respect and attention to detail that the Egyptians had for the brain, but alas...probably just not enough to convince you or the rest of the orthodox historical 'brains' trust (pun intended), that there is more to the similarities of the Eye of Horus and the Pineal Gland and that the Eye of the falcon is just a convenient cop out.

To make another correction regarding your dismissive remark of the brain. You mention the Egyptian word for the brain (thank you for at least admitting that they even acknowledged its existence, i think), and then you be-little it by referring to it as "head guts" suggesting that it was little more to the Egyptians than a cleansing tube much like the intestines, which for your information and acknowledged by you no less...were preserved with the mummy. So i guess even if true...(referring to the brain as a "gut"), it wouldn't have had the same negative meaning as your trying to portray it to me as to the Egyptians. I guess you forgot to mention a source for that claim, I'm interested to see it as i haven't found a reference mentioning it as "head guts" so if its not to much trouble show me a source for your claim either way.

"Most of the cases seem to describe injuries from either falls (perhaps from building pyramids?) or battle wounds caused by spears and daggers. The hieroglyphic for the brain is mentioned 7 times, although there is no analogous term for “nerve.” The organization of the case studies is impressive in both detail and level of rational thought; the examinations and diagnoses are methodical and free of magical thinking.

http://scienceblogs.com/retrospectacle/2007/08/23/braaaaaiiins-in-the-age-of-egy-1/

...again, more evidence that the Egyptians thought enough of the brain even if they couldn't (in the absence of modern neurological technology) know it's exact role, only that damage to it resulted in loss of quality of life and worse still death...now in the absence of neurological science and 3500 years of research, you cant tell me that they didn't at the very least study such a mysterious organ and therefore give it some respect other than a "gut" lose half your guts and you can continue to live...lose half your brain and your dead...its that simple!

Now lets talk about the Myth of Horus, and your incredible "settling the matter."

First off...Horus was associated with the falcon. The falcon has two eyes and in the myth Horus ends up with two. So why wasn't the Wedjat portrayed as two eyes instead of one? Even though i do not discard the accepted view on Horus and his eye, I'd be skeptical of such claims since Horus was portrayed in many ways even a boy sitting on a lotus leaf..which brings me to the Wedjat, it signifies protection in many forms and not just the eye, the lioness, vulture and even the cobra. But you see my problem isn't with your reasoning or the myth of Horus but rather what was the inspiration behind the intricate design of the Eye of HORUS. You contend it was a falcon and i say it was the Pineal Gland. The only point of contention between us is not about anything else but what does the HORUS eye resemble most. You accuse me of just stating facts without backing them up and i accuse you of following academic dogma based on missing jig-saw puzzle guessing...at least keep an open mind to the fact that more pieces will eventually come to light.

[Harte]

Okay, but we've shown that the pineal gland doesn't resemble that shape in the least.

Perhaps you should at least get your own belief straight here. What you're actually claiming is that the eye of Horus looks similar to a cross-section of the brain itself, and not the pineal gland.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

Okay, but we've shown that the pineal gland doesn't resemble that shape in the least.

Perhaps you should at least get your own belief straight here. What you're actually claiming is that the eye of Horus looks similar to a cross-section of the brain itself, and not the pineal gland.

Harte

Who has time for facts or thinking straight, man?! He has THE TRUTH he needs to get out. There's no time for niceties like self-consistency or logical progression of ideas. Those are for the slow and the weak.

--Jaylemurph

[Harry_Dresden]

Okay, but we've shown that the pineal gland doesn't resemble that shape in the least.

Perhaps you should at least get your own belief straight here. What you're actually claiming is that the eye of Horus looks similar to a cross-section of the brain itself, and not the pineal gland.

Harte

...a cross section of the brain containing the pineal Gland will show a interchangeable shape with the EYE of HORUS. So what i hear you say...well if we look into the history of what the ancients thought of this particular Gland, you'll see that it has always had an association with psychic matters, even being referred to as the Third Eye...strange that such a concealed organ sitting dead smack in the middle of the brain would be thought by different cultures of as a gateway to the Gods.. much like the Eye of HORUS.

Who has time for facts or thinking straight, man?! He has THE TRUTH he needs to get out. There's no time for niceties like self-consistency or logical progression of ideas. Those are for the slow and the weak.

--Jaylemurph

Geez i love sarcasm...lol

[Harte]

...a cross section of the brain containing the pineal Gland will show a interchangeable shape with the EYE of HORUS. So what i hear you say...well if we look into the history of what the ancients thought of this particular Gland, you'll see that it has always had an association with psychic matters, even being referred to as the Third Eye...strange that such a concealed organ sitting dead smack in the middle of the brain would be thought by different cultures of as a gateway to the Gods.. much like the Eye of HORUS.

Apparently, you need a visual aid.

Show me the pineal gland in this pic:

That is a cross-section of the brain you're looking at, not the pineal gland.

I gave you a pic of the pineal gland on the first page.

So, again, get your claims straight.

Harte

[Harry_Dresden]

Well Harte...i had no idea what you expected to see. Were you waiting to see eye lashes OR maybe a little bit of a wink. I've made my case, i think its sound and the evidence certainly makes it probable, now whether you think I'm right/wrong is irrelevant.

[Harte]

Your case?

What case?

The pic in the OP doesn't even show the gland you're so hot on.

Harte

[+DieChecker]

well if we look into the history of what the ancients thought of this particular Gland, you'll see that it has always had an association with psychic matters, even being referred to as the Third Eye...

Which cultures, nations, peoples believed that specifically?

The pineal gland is called the Third Eye, because it has that function in several other animals like the tuatara. And not because it "sees" anything magically. It has (In humans) the remnants of light sensing cells, like are found in the eye.

That people "see" through this eye is possible if the pineal has a direct connection to the visual centers of the brain, but I doubt that extremely. It supposedly helps monitor/synch your circadian/seasonal bodily rhythms.

[kmt_sesh]

Attention Kmt_Sesh

Regardless of your new found protestations concerning the brain, and the Egyptian understanding of it...i think that you have been saying all along that the Egyptians were ignorant of much in medicine and especially the brain, cause it suits the academic orthodox view point that the Eye of Horus could not possibly have been influenced artistically by the brain even though the resemblance is uncanny. Even though there's a plethora of information that has been discarded simply because it doesn't fit your view point.

"Herodotus, in the fifth century B.C., wrote this of the Egyptians: "Medicine with them is distributed in the following way: every physician is for one disease and not for several, and the whole country is full of physicians of the eyes; others of the head; others of the teeth; others of the belly, and others of obscure diseases."

And...

"The importance of the brain was well appreciated, and the Smith Papyrus spoke of a sensation of throbbing and fluttering beneath fingers palpating the surface of an injury-exposed living brain. The Papyrus also spoke of the effects on motor functions of brain injury; the results were seen to be different depending on which side was injured."

http://www.healthgui...ient-Egypt.html

Egyptians assigned doctors to specialise in the study and treatment of the brain. They wrote about it. Left a medical record (and RA only knows how many other records are lost to us or waiting to be found), about such things as the effects of motor function, which shows the great respect and attention to detail that the Egyptians had for the brain, but alas...probably just not enough to convince you or the rest of the orthodox historical 'brains' trust (pun intended), that there is more to the similarities of the Eye of Horus and the Pineal Gland and that the Eye of the falcon is just a convenient cop out.

To make another correction regarding your dismissive remark of the brain. You mention the Egyptian word for the brain (thank you for at least admitting that they even acknowledged its existence, i think), and then you be-little it by referring to it as "head guts" suggesting that it was little more to the Egyptians than a cleansing tube much like the intestines, which for your information and acknowledged by you no less...were preserved with the mummy. So i guess even if true...(referring to the brain as a "gut"), it wouldn't have had the same negative meaning as your trying to portray it to me as to the Egyptians. I guess you forgot to mention a source for that claim, I'm interested to see it as i haven't found a reference mentioning it as "head guts" so if its not to much trouble show me a source for your claim either way.

"Most of the cases seem to describe injuries from either falls (perhaps from building pyramids?) or battle wounds caused by spears and daggers. The hieroglyphic for the brain is mentioned 7 times, although there is no analogous term for “nerve.” The organization of the case studies is impressive in both detail and level of rational thought; the examinations and diagnoses are methodical and free of magical thinking.

http://scienceblogs....e-age-of-egy-1/

...again, more evidence that the Egyptians thought enough of the brain even if they couldn't (in the absence of modern neurological technology) know it's exact role, only that damage to it resulted in loss of quality of life and worse still death...now in the absence of neurological science and 3500 years of research, you cant tell me that they didn't at the very least study such a mysterious organ and therefore give it some respect other than a "gut" lose half your guts and you can continue to live...lose half your brain and your dead...its that simple!

Now lets talk about the Myth of Horus, and your incredible "settling the matter."

First off...Horus was associated with the falcon. The falcon has two eyes and in the myth Horus ends up with two. So why wasn't the Wedjat portrayed as two eyes instead of one? Even though i do not discard the accepted view on Horus and his eye, I'd be skeptical of such claims since Horus was portrayed in many ways even a boy sitting on a lotus leaf..which brings me to the Wedjat, it signifies protection in many forms and not just the eye, the lioness, vulture and even the cobra. But you see my problem isn't with your reasoning or the myth of Horus but rather what was the inspiration behind the intricate design of the Eye of HORUS. You contend it was a falcon and i say it was the Pineal Gland. The only point of contention between us is not about anything else but what does the HORUS eye resemble most. You accuse me of just stating facts without backing them up and i accuse you of following academic dogma based on missing jig-saw puzzle guessing...at least keep an open mind to the fact that more pieces will eventually come to light.

You've repeated information we already know. You've repeated information that is not supported by evidence. I do appreciate your citing a couple of sources. They go toward the understanding that ancient Egyptian physicians were adept at their craft. But we already know that and, more importantly, they stop well short for your case.

Throughout your posts in this discussion you have not once definitively demonstrated how the pineal gland is related to the Horus Eye, especially in the case of stated, orthodox evidence to the contrary. You've relied exclusively on pareidolia and personal speculation, but not demonstrative, supportive evidence.

Your case, in fact, remains quite unmade.

It's clear, I think, that we've taken this as far as it's going to go.

Which cultures, nations, peoples believed that specifically?

The pineal gland is called the Third Eye, because it has that function in several other animals like the tuatara. And not because it "sees" anything magically. It has (In humans) the remnants of light sensing cells, like are found in the eye.

That people "see" through this eye is possible if the pineal has a direct connection to the visual centers of the brain, but I doubt that extremely. It supposedly helps monitor/synch your circadian/seasonal bodily rhythms.

Doesn't much matter anyway, DieChecker. The "Third Eye" is not even an ancient Egyptian concept.

[Brometheus]

A bit of reaching with this one but i like to keep an open mind.

[Harte]

Really?

Cause there's a pic of one in the OP.

Harte

[jhonny11]

I would go with taniwha: the Horus Eye is widely believed to represent the markings of a hawk indigenous to North Africa.

What it boils down to is the ancient Egyptian understanding of the functions of the human brain: they did not understand its functions. They believed the heart to be the brain. Consider the practice of mummification. In those cases where the excerebration was performed, the brain was removed in globs generally through the nostril. It was destroyed in the process. The Egyptians did not even try to preserve the brain, which basically clarifies its low significance in their culture.

tworth to note: from the the secret teachings of all ages by manly p hall page.212

While all the Mysteries recognized the heart as the center of spiritual consciousness, they often

purposely ignored this concept and used the heart in its exoteric sense as the symbol of the emotional

nature, In this arrangement the generative center represented the physical body, the heart the emotional

body, and the brain the mental body. The brain represented the superior sphere, but after the initiates had

passed through the lower degrees they were instructed that the brain was the proxy of the spiritual flame

dwelling in the innermost recesses of the heart. The student of esotericism discovers ere long that the

ancients often resorted to various blinds to conceal the true interpretations of their Mysteries. The

substitution of the brain for the heart was one of these blinds.

The three degrees of the ancient Mysteries were, with few exceptions, given in chambers which

represented the three great centers of the human and Universal bodies. If possible, the temple itself was

constructed in the form of the human body. The candidate entered between the feet and received the

highest degree in the point corresponding to the brain. Thus the first degree was the material mystery

and its symbol was the generative system; it raised the candidate through the various degrees of concrete

thought. The second degree was given in the chamber corresponding to the heart, but represented the

middle power which was the mental link. Here the candidate was initiated into the mysteries of abstract

thought and lifted as high as the mind was capable of penetrating. He then passed into the third chamber,

which, analogous to the brain, occupied the highest position in the temple but, analogous to the heart,

was of the greatest dignity. In the brain chamber the heart mystery was given. Here the initiate for the

first time truly comprehended the meaning of those immortal words: "As a man thinketh in his heart, so

is he."

[Kaa-Tzik]

tworth to note: from the the secret teachings of all ages by manly p hall page.212

While all the Mysteries recognized the heart as the center of spiritual consciousness, they often

purposely ignored this concept and used the heart in its exoteric sense as the symbol of the emotional

nature, In this arrangement the generative center represented the physical body, the heart the emotional

body, and the brain the mental body. The brain represented the superior sphere, but after the initiates had

passed through the lower degrees they were instructed that the brain was the proxy of the spiritual flame

dwelling in the innermost recesses of the heart. The student of esotericism discovers ere long that the

ancients often resorted to various blinds to conceal the true interpretations of their Mysteries. The

substitution of the brain for the heart was one of these blinds.

The three degrees of the ancient Mysteries were, with few exceptions, given in chambers which

represented the three great centers of the human and Universal bodies. If possible, the temple itself was

constructed in the form of the human body. The candidate entered between the feet and received the

highest degree in the point corresponding to the brain. Thus the first degree was the material mystery

and its symbol was the generative system; it raised the candidate through the various degrees of concrete

thought. The second degree was given in the chamber corresponding to the heart, but represented the

middle power which was the mental link. Here the candidate was initiated into the mysteries of abstract

thought and lifted as high as the mind was capable of penetrating. He then passed into the third chamber,

which, analogous to the brain, occupied the highest position in the temple but, analogous to the heart,

was of the greatest dignity. In the brain chamber the heart mystery was given. Here the initiate for the

first time truly comprehended the meaning of those immortal words: "As a man thinketh in his heart, so

is he."

This seems very similar to the ideas of Schwaller de Lubicz as laid out in his main work "The Temple of Man", and regarding the geometry of Egyptian art in regard to the human form and to the layout of Egyptian temples, Karnak in particular. He purports to see a purpose behind these things that is rather difficult for our modern minds to discern at this distance in time from the Ancient Egyptians.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[kmt_sesh]

This seems very similar to the ideas of Schwaller de Lubicz as laid out in his main work "The Temple of Man", and regarding the geometry of Egyptian art in regard to the human form and to the layout of Egyptian temples, Karnak in particular. He purports to see a purpose behind these things that is rather difficult for our modern minds to discern at this distance in time from the Ancient Egyptians.

I am not familiar with Schwaller de Lubicz's work and wouldn't mind it if you elaborated on his ideas about Karnak, but the whole "Mysteries" craze is largely New Age in concept and not applicable to most societies of the ancient Near East. Not in the way presented by New Age beliefs, in any case. And these "Mysteries" are absent in the traditions of ancient Egypt in particular.

I write this only in my interest to hear more about de Lubicz's stand on Karnak. Otherwise, the poster named jhonny11 is no longer a member here so I also wanted to make sure you know he will not be able to reply to your post.

[Harte]

I am not familiar with Schwaller de Lubicz's work ...

kmt,

He's that guy with the unusually large pineal gland. Here's a pic:

I believe he had a bit part in the movie based on Stephen King's "The Dark Half."

Now we're back on topic. You're welcome.

Harte

[+DieChecker]

He's that guy with the unusually large pineal gland.

Do you believe that his big pineal created "pineal envy" in his associates??

Edited January 13, 2014 by DieChecker

[Harte]

"Pineal head" is better than being called "pineal breath," IMO.

Harte

[Kaa-Tzik]

I am not familiar with Schwaller de Lubicz's work and wouldn't mind it if you elaborated on his ideas about Karnak, but the whole "Mysteries" craze is largely New Age in concept and not applicable to most societies of the ancient Near East. Not in the way presented by New Age beliefs, in any case. And these "Mysteries" are absent in the traditions of ancient Egypt in particular.

I write this only in my interest to hear more about de Lubicz's stand on Karnak. Otherwise, the poster named jhonny11 is no longer a member here so I also wanted to make sure you know he will not be able to reply to your post.

It would be easier, in part, to say what Schwaller de Lubicz is not, for he is misrepresented by those who know practicaly nothing about his work, if anything at all, and as they may see his name referenced by fringe authors, assume that he is also a fringe author. He died of old age in 1961 and has nothing to do with UFOs, new age nonsense, Afrocentrism, or the cynical making of money by selling the gullible public works of nonsense. Yet unfortunately his work has been used to provide a basis for all types of nonsense. He made no comments about the origins of the AE, racial or geographical, or much about their day to day culture and living. He made no pronouncements about the age of AE civilisation or any of the monuments, and simply accepted the orthodox history of AE and the timeline as far as we know it. He made not a single claim to the AE having any technology in advance of what we know they had, or having been given any "help" from external sources. I thought best to lay all that out clearly to avoid any misunderstanding as to where he is "coming from".

Now, to say what he is and what he has done. It is no secret that his work is viewed, by some, as being esoteric, and yes, I hear the usual sighs and see the rolling of the eyes, though he is far removed from the likes of Blavatsky and Cayce. He was a serious philosopher and mathematician, and has been described as an Egyptologist, though as he does not concern himself, at least in his work, with the "nuts and bolts" of daily life, I personally would hesitate to call him an Egyptologist in the sense that we recognise today. He always had an intense fascination with AE, and over time became frustrated with what he saw as the conventional Egypological desire to measure and catalouge to the nth degree, but without looking much beyond measurements and lists to the real people behind all this. Remember the age in which he lived was rather formal and crusty, and there was too much desire to tie in AE with the Bible. If he lived today I think he would have a different and more favorable view of current Egyptology in that there is far more thought given to the actual people and what may have gone through their minds, than simply oohing and aahing at buildings and objects, no matter how fantastic. Essentially he thought that the Egyptology of his day was to some extent ignoring the reasons why the AE built a temple in the way they did, that is not the mechanics of building, but the ideas behind it of course, and about why some of their art was as it is. Modern Egyptology is, to an extent, catching up with him, as he realised a long time ago that a scene on a tomb wall of the deceased throwing a net over birds, is not to be taken literally as simply catching birds. However, he tried to get into the minds of the AE and see why a temple has such and such a ground plan, and why certain scenes, religious, not propoganda battle and smiting scenes, were as they were, and place in a particular position. We all know the AE were clever with maths and geometry, but he tried to see beyond what our eyes see when we look at a temple or scene. We know the AE have left no written evidence that they were philosophers such as Plato or Aristotle, and we ascribe the birth of philosophy to the Ancient Greeks. He thought that the AE were philosophers, but we should view their books as being the temples, in that by the maths and geometry of and in the temples they expressed their philosophy. He said, what was controversial in his times, that as the Romans were the conduit for the Greeks, so the Greeks were the conduits for the Egyptians, an idea not so scorned these days. He also saw the possibility of alignments of buidings with constellations. he was not, however, a "pyramidologist" as he rarely mentions the pyramids other than to discus the geometry expressed in them, and no, not the speed of light or any of those ideas. It is from this idea that some important buildings may have connections with constellations or individual cosmic bodies, that men like Bauval get his ideas. This of course retrospectively puts Schwaller de Lubicz in the fringe camp as the fringe have used him as a staring point, and run away in all manner of directions that he himself may well laugh at. Likewise, because he proposes that Greek ideas have their origins in AE, then Afrocentrists such as Martin Bernal have been intellectually dishonest and, because they say, incorrectly, that AE was a black African civilisation, then Greek thought and on to all of western civilisation was then a black African construct. I cannot speak for a man long dead, but I think he would be appalled by how his ideas have been cynically stolen and mis-used.

As to the temple of Karnak. he ideas are contained over three volumes of his two major works, "The temple of Man" and "The Temples of Karnak", and total over two thousand pages. I cannot adequately make a synopsis of this. Most of what are considered "esoteric" ideas are in "The Temple of Man", but they are considered esoteric because he looks beyond the stone walls and sees the living people and why they thought and did what they did, ideas that cannot be measured and dated and filed away. It is his ideas, essentially conjecture, but clever thought out and argued, and without a trace of "woo woo". It would be too much to expect anybody to buy that book just to see what he says, it is too huge, physically as well as in length, and deep pockets are needed. However, but still huge and needing deep pockets, "The Temples of Karnak" is a beautiful book consisting mostly of B&W photos, as it was first published many years ago when color photos would have been garish and very very expensive. He has use profesional photographers, Egyptologists and archeologists to document every facet of the temples, and give a brief, but illuminating explanation of what we are seeing. Since this book was first published, some of what was documented has fallen into ruins, and this book now contains the only evidence of parts of buildings as they were when standing, and more imprtantly, scenes and hieroglyphs. I cannot recommend this book highly enough, and as it is currently in print by Thames & Hudson, should be easy (ish) to find, with sufficient $.

R.A Schwaller de Lubicz should not be dismissed outright as being on the fringe, and his idea of trying to look at why the AE did certain things, and what they meant, is worth investigating.

Back on topic, "The Temple of Man" contains a fascinating section on what the AE knew of anatomy and the inner working of the body. There are diagrams of a head cut in section lengthways, and showing the hieroglyph and translation for each part the AE had given a name to. All this from the medical papyri. While all the external parts have a name, as would be expected, there is not so much about the internal structures and organs. The olfactory parts are well named, and the book later has an interesting sideline joining the AEs seeming interest in this with the ureaus and it's shape. The inside of the mouth and the throat are well documented, as is the spinal chord and a few elements around the brain, which of course is named. But the inner parts of the brain, and in particular the pineal gland and the part of the brain said to be like the Eye of Horus, have no name whatsoever. I would have thought that if the AE had associated part of the brain with the Eye of Horus, a thing so fundamentally important in their culture, that they would have given this part of the brain a name to show how impotant this was, but nothing.....

About the Eye of Horus, Schwaller de Lubicz says, in words to the effect, that even in a book of some 1,500 pages, there is insuficient space for him to deal with the Eye of Horus as the subject is so vast and involved, a pity. And it was a wall of text in the end, oh well.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik