The Islamic point of view on so called Ghosts

[AbyssWalker]

I'm curious then how do you explain him and those who are possessed with the experiences they have? Just liars? Mental illnesses? Then how do you explain them feeling pain, getting cured by reading the Qur'an on them? How come Qur'an has affect on people who claim to be possesed. I'm not saying this to prove my religion (as i said i have my own reasons for believing) but it's something to think about.

They may not be liars, but they could very well have serious mental illnesses. I've lived in a country surrounded by superstition, and some folk are either afraid of scientific cures and treatments, and others don't quite have the resources to get help.

Put yourself in the shoes of such people, if some 'religious exorcist' guy comes in and offers to cure your 'possessed' family member, (practically offers to do same thing as a psychiatrist, for much less money, he also explains it to you in words you can understand), who would you choose if you have no knowledge of mental illnesses?

You know what, it doesn't have to be a Quran at all, all exorcisms I've seen involves some kind of 'call and response' kind of thing, shouting, screaming, hell, he could be preaching verses from the bible or use the name of jesus, it doesn't seem to make any difference, it depends on whatever faith the exorcist belongs to.

Anyway, are these people cured? Do we see them again? The rest of their lives aren't well documented, are they?

I go through one of the videos on the site, and one says "Doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong, power of Islam (or whatever) cured it", that could be hogwash, as not even you would believe everything that's said there. Where exactly did they seek medical help but failed?

[AbyssWalker]

I didn't say that and place the videos to strengthen my belief. I have my own reasons why i believe something to be true. If i believe in God and i believe someone claiming to be a prophet then everything what he says is unquestionable for me. So if we were to discuss the truthfullness of this all we would be talking about does God exist(to atheists), true monotheism(to christians, jews and idol worshipers etc) , what makes you believe this man is a prophet etc. And this is not the topic to do that and it has been done numerous times, so what i would advise everyone is to investigate it for themselves and look up the reasons people believe and the argument they have and the answers they have against accusations if you're convinced believe if not then don't.

You brought up this point that pyramids, mental illness, and alien abductions and all other stuff could be explained by Djinns, I'm just asking you about that stuff. I didn't ask you to convince me god exists.

Don't misread me, I'm not bashing any religion or god here.. My post is in response to "Djinns explain everything" thing you said.

read post #26 too if you will, and respond if you care.

[Frank Merton]

Reading the passage supposedly from the Q'uran quoted above, is that for real? Satan was expelled for refusing to bow to human Adam and God created the Jinn?

[muslimexorcism]

They may not be liars, but they could very well have serious mental illnesses. I've lived in a country surrounded by superstition, and some folk are either afraid of scientific cures and treatments, and others don't quite have the resources to get help.

So the one who's saying he's possessed and the exorcist himself have mental issues? The videos i posted are about cases in the UK not in a place you described and the exorcist is completely healthy, so according to you he became mentally ill after he started exorcism? You should also know that we as muslims who follow the quran and sunnah truthfully do not discourage going to doctors etc. Some even say go to a doctor first and if he can't help you then come to us or come to us and we are going to recite quran on you nothing else, if you're not possesed nothing is going to happen and you can go to a doctor. The fact of the matter is that Quran has affect on people who are really possessed, I have experienced people screaming myself while they were being read upon.

Put yourself in the shoes of such people, if some 'religious exorcist' guy comes in and offers to cure your 'possessed' family member, (practically offers to do same thing as a psychiatrist, for much less money, he also explains it to you in words you can understand), who would you choose if you have no knowledge of mental illnesses?

The choice is easy, if i'm physically ill i'll go straight to a doctor. If i'm mentally ill I can choose between one who reads quran on me and the doctor. The one who reads quran is much safer, he's not going to drug me and if i am really possessed his recitation will have affect, if not i will just accept i'm mentally ill and live a life druging myself with medicine to keep away the mental problems.

You know what, it doesn't have to be a Quran at all, all exorcisms I've seen involves some kind of 'call and response' kind of thing, shouting, screaming, hell, he could be preaching verses from the bible or use the name of jesus, it doesn't seem to make any difference, it depends on whatever faith the exorcist belongs to.

I know that non-muslims practice exorcism but you're just bringing proof against yourself now and that is that they do have affect although we muslims don't agree with their method like calling on prophets etc. Because it goes against our monotheistic belief of not calling only on Allaah, the creator of everything and of course we say Quran has a stronger affect on them and that's why some non muslims come to muslim exorcists to help them. Although people should be carefull because some who claim to do exorcism in reality practice magic like calling on the devil, or just want your money etc.. Real exorcism is only done by reading quran and calling on Allaah alone.

Anyway, are these people cured? Do we see them again? The rest of their lives aren't well documented, are they?

You don't see them, because you have no connection to them but people who do know them say they'r cured and the person himself and the exorcist. I know of some who still aren't cured and some who are.

I go through one of the videos on the site, and one says "Doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong, power of Islam (or whatever) cured it", that could be hogwash, as not even you would believe everything that's said there. Where exactly did they seek medical help but failed?

You can doubt it if you want, but he's not here to give you personal information on his patients, what kind of a doctor does that? If you want to know more go to an muslim exorcist and talk to him and ask if you can watch while he's doing his recitation. I hope he lets you, if i would ever start exorcism myself i would let everyone watch if the patient agrees.

[LogicalThinker]

If you watch the first video, he clearly says that he's differentiating between what is found in islamic sources and his own experience. What he quotes from islamic sources is based on pure data and what he adds from himself is from experience as an exorcist.

"I'm curious then how do you explain him and those who are possessed with the experiences they have? Just liars? Mental illnesses? Then how do you explain them feeling pain, getting cured by reading the Qur'an on them? How come Qur'an has affect on people who claim to be possesed. I'm not saying this to prove my religion (as i said i have my own reasons for believing) but it's something to think about."

I can explain, it's utter rubbish because feeling pain isn't apparent as say losing a limb or being diagnosed with a terrible illness. And you have answered your own question.."How come Qur'an has affect on people who claim to be possesed." No evidence, no proof! Easy!

I have really enjoyed reading through the discussions on this forum and that is why I joined but I'm afraid I could only last through two minutes of the first video as I suddenly realised that I did not want to be preached to about things that I find quite offensive! The suppossedly possessed victims, and they are victims, should be in a hospital receiving the proper care and treatment whilst the idiots in these videos should be put in a jail as this is disgusting abuse of vulnerable ill people to gain some credability to their ways and beliefs. I apologise if you find this reply disrespectfull as it is not my style and I have an open mind but as long as it comes under logical and reasonable thinking, but I would like a live in a world were people and animals receive the proper care they deserve and the subject of 'excorisims' is the torment and abuse of extremely sick people!

[muslimexorcism]

You brought up this point that pyramids, mental illness, and alien abductions and all other stuff could be explained by Djinns, I'm just asking you about that stuff. I didn't ask you to convince me god exists.

Don't misread me, I'm not bashing any religion or god here.. My post is in response to "Djinns explain everything" thing you said.

read post #26 too if you will, and respond if you care.

Yes it could explain some unexplainable events, just like the westerners call them ghosts we say they're jinn and the kidnapping wich is said in the west to be done by aliens could be done by jinn. I'm just saying could, i didn't say there's 100 procent proof that pyramids are built by the help of jinn or giant people or whatever... And just so you know we as muslims believe in the existence of mentall illnesses but we do not exclude possession and we do not explain every unexplainable event by something like jinn.

I wasn't trying to convince you God exists, sorry for my bad english it's like my 3rd language, so that could be the cause of miscommunication.

[LogicalThinker]

I want to stress that I think anybody has there right to hold their beliefs and I don't want to bash them or be disrespectful in any way but this is only my opinion which I am entitled to hold and my strong objections to the farce that is possession/excorisims.

[muslimexorcism]

I can explain, it's utter rubbish because feeling pain isn't apparent as say losing a limb or being diagnosed with a terrible illness. And you have answered your own question.."How come Qur'an has affect on people who claim to be possesed." No evidence, no proof! Easy!

I have really enjoyed reading through the discussions on this forum and that is why I joined but I'm afraid I could only last through two minutes of the first video as I suddenly realised that I did not want to be preached to about things that I find quite offensive! The suppossedly possessed victims, and they are victims, should be in a hospital receiving the proper care and treatment whilst the idiots in these videos should be put in a jail as this is disgusting abuse of vulnerable ill people to gain some credability to their ways and beliefs. I apologise if you find this reply disrespectfull as it is not my style and I have an open mind but as long as it comes under logical and reasonable thinking, but I would like a live in a world were people and animals receive the proper care they deserve and the subject of 'excorisims' is the torment and abuse of extremely sick people!

Denying something isn't an explanation. Give me a logical explanation why people who claim or are possessed feel pain, start screaming, acting weird, saying weird things etc. When they're being read upon. I said claim to be possessed intentionally, because some people have mental illnesses while thinking they are possessed and they should accept their mentall illness although there is nothing wrong with reading Quran on them as this does not harm them in any way.

There's nothing tormenting about reading a book in a beautifull voice. And again we do not discourage going to a hospital, if you had watched the first video completely you would have heard him say that we respect what they are doing but they also should respect our reading Quran on people to cure them if they choose so on their free will.

And feeling pain is apparent in the way the patient behaves, you cannot feel it yourself but they can. I also know a guy who is possessed and he says he feels pain in his breast while listening to quran or islamic lectures and if he's doing something else wich has nothing to do with islam he doesn't feel the pain and the urge to go away, i even heard two guys who are possessed scream loudly while we were praying in congregation.

Edited December 27, 2013 by muslimexorcism

[LogicalThinker]

Denying something isn't an explanation. Give me a logical explanation why people who claim or are possessed feel pain, start screaming, acting weird, saying weird things etc. When they're being read upon. I said claim to be possessed intentionally, because some people have mental illnesses while thinking they are possessed and they should accept their mentall illness although there is nothing wrong with reading Quran on them as this does not harm them in any way.

There's nothing tormenting about reading a book in a beautifull voice. And again we do not discourage going to a hospital, if you had watched the first video completely you would have heard him say that we respect what they are doing but they also should respect our reading Quran on people to cure them if they choose so on their free will.

Reading to someone is fine as long as they are receiving the proper medical care for their illness...Telling a mentally ill person that they are possessed with a demon or such things is repulsive and acting out fake rituals to remove the alledged paranormal being from their body is abusive to the victims of this farce...I believe it should be outlawed and the purpetrators should be jailed for such sickning practises. Lets not forget that the victims are already mentally unstable and in a vunerable condition! I'm sorry but a human beings mental health comes first before any religon or belief! I believe that these are crimes against humans in the name of religon and these practises should be expelled.

[LogicalThinker]

"Give me a logical explanation why people who claim or are possessed feel pain, start screaming, acting weird, saying weird things etc. When they're being read upon."

Again you have answered your own question...Because they are ill and vunerable that IS the logical explanation.!

"Denying something isn't an explanation."

Something scientific perhaps, but not this issue! What is your explanation for denying that these practises are wrong?

[muslimexorcism]

I don't see any crime in reading something loudly for those who ask of you to do that. The exorcist does not tell them you're possessed or not, he just reads and if he is possessed it will affect his body and behaviour and if not then he can go home and there's no need in going further. Some choose it last option, others first, so i see no problem in it as long as the patient is safe. Someone who thinks he is possessed and not mentally ill can also read on himself if he wants, he does not need to go to someone experienced and this is also encouraged or can also play a ruqya audio with recitation of Quran wich can be heard on YT.

And forbidding is impossible, because what you are actually saying is forbidding recitation of Quran wich muslims do often like in prayer etc. Just as i said earlier the guys literally started screaming out of pain by the jinn while praying one of the 5 daily prayers. Are we going to forbid prayer now also? There's no doubt in my mind that it has affect on possessed people.

[muslimexorcism]

Double

Edited December 27, 2013 by muslimexorcism

[LogicalThinker]

If I were to suddenly start screaming loudly is this enough to convince you that I may be possessed or that something spiritual is happening with me? Sure I can scream any time that I want. Maybe this person desired to create the iilusion that something paranormal was happening, I don't know, I can't answer that. What I do know is that the human race has the capability and free will to scream from the first second they were born to the last seconds of death. I get pains all the time..they pretty much come and go..I play a lot of sports and work in an office so it's perfectly reasonable that an active human being would get the odd pain. Your argument holds no strength. There is very little you can do to convince me that this is not a 'farce'. These practises should be expelled!

[LogicalThinker]

The practise of Excorcisim should be expelled. What you believe or what you do in your own time is yours to choose. I just don't believe or think that it is right for one man to tell or dictate that another man is possessed. Then create the illusion that he can excorcise demons/possessions. I think that is a disgrace and is very wrong!

[LogicalThinker]

Ok I decided to go with you as a sceptic to one of the readings.I decided to lie so that I can prove a point and catch your practice out. I begin screaming loudly and complain of pains in my chest but I am faking. On the way out I admit to faking. What is your response after I prove how easy it is to fake and that the whole thing was a sham? Despite knowing that the people are either faking or are very vunerable and ill, how can you even convince yourself?

[muslimexorcism]

Oh now you're accusing people of being attention seekers. I know some of these people and they aren't doing it on purpose or to create the illusion something weird is happening to them and the scream that comes out of their mouth shows real pain and not just an "ouch" because of work or sports.

If you don't know then just say i don't know as you said and i wasn't trying to convince anyone i'm just answering some of your posts just like you are answering mine.

You guys make these people feel like crazy outcasts at least we give them an alternative.

[muslimexorcism]

Ok I decided to go with you as a sceptic to one of the readings.I decided to lie so that I can prove a point and catch your practice out. I begin screaming loudly and complain of pains in my chest but I am faking. On the way out I admit to faking. What is your response after I prove how easy it is to fake and that the whole thing was a sham? Despite knowing that the people are either faking or are very vunerable and ill, how can you even convince yourself?

It has already been done, there's an egyptian documentary about fake exorcists wich i watched a long time ago. There was also a show were fake exorcists were being exposed in arabic. Either way it doesn't prove anything, only that YOU were faking it and a true exorcist with experience would see you are faking.

[LogicalThinker]

"Oh now you're accusing people of being attention seekers."

Is it unknown for someone to seek attention when they are ill or unhappy? If someone chooses to go to these readings on their own free will because it helps them then great! The only problem I have is the possession/excorcism area...That is the only problem I have. It would be bad advice to send someone to the excorcist when they should be getting the proper treatment in the hospital surely you would agree with that? Like I said before, a persons health comes first before faith or religon.

" I know some of these people and they aren't doing it on purpose or to create the illusion something weird is happening to them and the scream that comes out of their mouth shows real pain and not just an "ouch" because of work or sports."

But I already proved that I can make a scream or get a pain pretty much anytime whether I fake or not. Prove to me that they were not fake screams. How can you be sure another person is definitely feeling pain? In a court of law it would be very difficult to defend your claims. I can just imagine the judge asking you "Well how do you know he was in pain?" "Because he said so and he made some screams" "But anyone here in the court today can scream and say we have pains..Prove it.." "I can't, you just have to take my word for it" "Case closed, you lost!"

[LogicalThinker]

It has already been done, there's an egyptian documentary about fake exorcists wich i watched a long time ago. There was also a show were fake exorcists were being exposed in arabic. Either way it doesn't prove anything, only that YOU were faking it and a true exorcist with experience would see you are faking.

The only way the so called excorcist would detect that I was faking is because he is the expert at faking, he is the cunning imposter masquerading as a so called man of a so called God preying on weak and vunerable people. He would preach that me the sceptic who faked, that his 'magic' did not work because I am a non-believer. Whether I am a believer in any faith or God should be irrelevant. The magic either works on me for real or he is exposed as the con artist either way I am the winner on both results.

[muslimexorcism]

If someone chooses to go to these readings on their own free will because it helps them then great! The only problem I have is the possession/excorcism area...That is the only problem I have. It would be bad advice to send someone to the excorcist when they should be getting the proper treatment in the hospital surely you would agree with that? Like I said before, a persons health comes first before faith or religon.

I'm confused now, the exorcism is the reading of quran and nothing else and we do not discourage seeking medical help. If they come to you and ask you to read for them then you read and that's it. Reading the quran an hour or two isn't preventing them from seeking medical help, some of the patients have already sought medical help and some don't have the money to do so so what's wrong with reading quran to them if they think it will work. I think we do not disagree, just the wrong choice of words?

But I already proved that I can make a scream or get a pain pretty much anytime whether I fake or not. Prove to me that they were not fake screams. How can you be sure another person is definitely feeling pain? In a court of law it would be very difficult to defend your claims. I can just imagine the judge asking you "Well how do you know he was in pain?" "Because he said so and he made some screams" "But anyone here in the court today can scream and say we have pains..Prove it.." "I can't, you just have to take my word for it" "Case closed, you lost!"

So you do not believe in internal pains? I think if a women in america would accuse you of raping her they would jail you even without evidence. Witnesses can put you in prison without evidence it's known in many countries.

If i had a child and told me it felt pain i would bring it to a doctor or says he's got schizofrenia or some mentall illness and if he can't help then i'll go to someone who reads Quran and if he's really possessed it will help if not then i'll accept my daughter/son has a mentall illness and live with it.

[muslimexorcism]

The only way the so called excorcist would detect that I was faking is because he is the expert at faking, he is the cunning imposter masquerading as a so called man of a so called God preying on weak and vunerable people. He would preach that me the sceptic who faked, that his 'magic' did not work because I am a non-believer. Whether I am a believer in any faith or God should be irrelevant. The magic either works on me for real or he is exposed as the con artist either way I am the winner on both results.

He's just reading Quran, so there's nothing to fake at it. Quran also works on non-muslims who are possessed, some even come to muslims to read quran on them. And you haven't tried it so don't be judging everyone who reads quran as exorcism without trying.

[spacelizard667]

So the one who's saying he's possessed and the exorcist himself have mental issues? The videos i posted are about cases in the UK not in a place you described and the exorcist is completely healthy, so according to you he became mentally ill after he started exorcism? ........

I know that non-muslims practice exorcism but you're just bringing proof against yourself now and that is that they do have affect although we muslims don't agree with their method like calling on prophets etc. Because it goes against our monotheistic belief of not calling only on Allaah, the creator of everything and of course we say Quran has a stronger affect on them and that's why some non muslims come to muslim exorcists to help them. Although people should be carefull because some who claim to do exorcism in reality practice magic like calling on the devil, or just want your money etc.. Real exorcism is only done by reading quran and calling on Allaah alone. ......

You don't see them, because you have no connection to them but people who do know them say they'r cured and the person himself and the exorcist. I know of some who still aren't cured and some who are.

Your assumptions are rather ambiguous, muslims are wasting their time trying to prove anything to outsiders by their own 'logic'. Real exorcism as it is practiced among muslims.......only; as to the part of your dialog which I bolded. I don't think that the Quran holds a lot of water here, I know about things like entity attacks. And there are many other ways of protecting oneself among various cultures, call it magic if you want to but strong beliefs in such magical protections persist nonetheless. Entity attacks are real enough, so there is much credence and renoun in having magical protection. So I am sayin', that muslims tend to insist that ONLY the quran or Allah can protect or exorcise and that is simply not the truth here.

[LogicalThinker]

He's just reading Quran, so there's nothing to fake at it. Quran also works on non-muslims who are possessed, some even come to muslims to read quran on them. And you haven't tried it so don't be judging everyone who reads quran as exorcism without trying.

Like I said the only problem I have is the excorcism/possession references. The point I'm making is that these excoricists are of no such thing, the 'excorcisms' are not real, and you asked me to give you a logical explanation to how these victims feel pain and scream during the so called excorcisms, which I did with various examples. I don't believe it is real, if someone believes they are gaining some spiritual enlightment/healing or what not, then I am fine with that. I do not believe that it is a suitable alternative as I believe that someone who could benefit from a qualified doctor might be cheated out of the treatment through the preachings of this practise. The screams or pain might be fake through being overwhelmed if they believe strongly in the faith/religion, or they should seek proper medical help or it could be pyschosomatic in some way! I am not calling the victims cheaters or fakes, I feel they are being taken advantage of as there is nothing paranormal in these practises...that is what I am sure of! I'm sorry this makes me sound ignorant because you seem like a nice, intelligent person.

[LogicalThinker]

He's just reading Quran, so there's nothing to fake at it. Quran also works on non-muslims who are possessed, some even come to muslims to read quran on them. And you haven't tried it so don't be judging everyone who reads quran as exorcism without trying.

I doubt very much that myself, a white Irishman from a catholic backround could read this quran and possess the same affect on followers of your faith as these so called excorcists...If it were that easy and lets say it was real and that it did cure people, then the whole world despite race, religion, national identity etc would be using this practise by now! Which brings me back to my original point, the victims are being cheated by an imposter who claims to cure/possess them through the readings of the Quran. You say some became cured some didn't.....People recover from illness all the time...maybe they just got better? Why did the Quran discriminate against those who were not cured?

[LogicalThinker]

I've been doing some research on this book the Quaran just out of interest and it seems that the teachings of this book proclaim that the world is 'flat'...I'm very sorry but that has just hit the nail on the head! How can the teachings of this book be taken seriously if it is ignorant to a simple fundamental piece of information such as the world is in fact 'round'?