Socialism in the Heart of Capitalist US

[Babe Ruth]

Oh, I agree.

Exactly! In some countries socialism works quite well. It's just many people in America have been brainwashed to think all socialism is bad and evil. It's not. It can work in some cases. I just think when the government gets involved, it can go bad. But in these types of situations I think it can work. Just my two cents though.....

I have heard the argument advanced that something as simple and common as a fire district--where everybody throws in some money so that everybody's house and fire can have fire protection--is a form of socialism. I find that a plausible argument.

[F3SS]

Haven't read the entire thread yet but it is not socialism. It is purely voluntary and only 16k people with a common interest. That is extremely small scale compared to the 320 million cultural melting pot of varying interests that is the United States. A socialist government is forced socialism. Call your op socialism if you want but these people are doing what they're doing by choice. A massive difference and not the gotcha moment you were hoping for.

[F3SS]

After reading it would seem that most agree, it's a voluntary service. To each according to his needs, from each according to his means only works if one wants to live that way. If the Feds forced that upon US as a standard for all, well that's the issue...

[Gromdor]

That seems to be the consensus. Socialism seems to be okay unless it has forced participation, involves public funds (which kind of is forced participation), or is so large that the members no longer care about its function and abuse it.

[Babe Ruth]

If the purpose of the government is to serve the people that created it, then I don't see anything wrong with that government providing healthcare to the people that created it. Some see that as socialism, as though it's a bad thing, which it's not. I see it as just logical.

[Leonardo]

Haven't read the entire thread yet but it is not socialism. It is purely voluntary and only 16k people with a common interest. That is extremely small scale compared to the 320 million cultural melting pot of varying interests that is the United States. A socialist government is forced socialism. Call your op socialism if you want but these people are doing what they're doing by choice. A massive difference and not the gotcha moment you were hoping for.

So, you think socialism is something that has to be forced onto people?

[F3SS]

So, you think socialism is something that has to be forced onto people?

No, who said that? The problem is if it is. Now I think your just being argumentive. The points have been clearly made. I don't know what else to tell you. Nobody is outraged about what's going on in the op and nobody's being sold on it as a wonderful life for all. We all know what you wanted out of this thread but your using a voluntary operation as a basis for a conversation about the merits of socialism. So the entire premise is flawed from the beginning. They are two entirely different issues with entirely different implications and effects and I don't even think they are really that relatable.

[Leonardo]

No, who said that? The problem is if it is. Now I think your just being argumentive. The points have been clearly made. I don't know what else to tell you. Nobody is outraged about what's going on in the op and nobody's being sold on it as a wonderful life for all. We all know what you wanted out of this thread but your using a voluntary operation as a basis for a conversation about the merits of socialism. So the entire premise is flawed from the beginning. They are two entirely different issues with entirely different implications and effects and I don't even think they are really that relatable.

You did. You said that what is depicted in the OP is not socialism because it is by the choice of those engaged in it.

here...

Haven't read the entire thread yet but it is not socialism. It is purely voluntary and only 16k people with a common interest.

...and here...

Call your op socialism if you want but these people are doing what they're doing by choice. A massive difference and not the gotcha moment you were hoping for.

Or are you suggesting it's not socialism because it is small-scale? In which case, you're just as wrong.

And the purpose of this thread is not to "catch people out", but to educate - which apparently is very much needed.

[F3SS]

You did. You said that what is depicted in the OP is not socialism because it is by the choice of those engaged in it.

Or are you suggesting it's not socialism because it is small-scale? In which case, you're just as wrong.

And the purpose of this thread is not to "catch people out", but to educate - which apparently is very much needed.

Ok, it's an aspect of what you might possibly see in a socialist society but to call this one instance socialism is a very broad statement and hardly indicative of a nationally implemented socialist society.

Your goal is to show how wonderful socialism is to all US ignorant Americans and suggested how well it works using a small scale sample, a voluntary one at that. The premise is flawed.

Yes it is. 'Lets wait for those socialism is evil comments' you said, or something similar. You're here to bait US as ignorant and show how enlightened and open minded you are. Lastly, if you believe everything America stands for is based on monetary reward you are mistaken. You're not educating anyone by using a voluntary organization as a basis for the merits of socialism. But it's your thread. Educate me as I am at once seeing and missing your point.

[Harte]

You're here to bait US as ignorant and show how enlightened and open minded you are.

HEY!

Leonardo doesn't do that.

That's MY M.O.!!!

Harte

[Leonardo]

Your goal is to show how wonderful socialism is to all US ignorant Americans and suggested how well it works using a small scale sample, a voluntary one at that. The premise is flawed.

No, my goal is to demonstrate how people in the US are using socialist behaviours every day to improve their lives - even if they are rabidly anti-socialist. And this is because those people generally have no idea what socialism actually is.

My goal is not to demonstrate that America should become a socialist society, but to educate people that socialism is nothing to fear. It can even be beneficial as part of our lives - even in a markedly capitalist society.

And socialist practices can work at any scale of society, as long as they are beneficial to the society they are practiced in.

[F3SS]

No, my goal is to demonstrate how people in the US are using socialist behaviours every day to improve their lives - even if they are rabidly anti-socialist. And this is because those people generally have no idea what socialism actually is.

My goal is not to demonstrate that America should become a socialist society, but to educate people that socialism is nothing to fear. It can even be beneficial as part of our lives - even in a markedly capitalist society.

And socialist practices can work at any scale of society, as long as they are beneficial to the society they are practiced in.

That's all pretty much what I figured. The underlying theme for people like me isn't about what the practice is as much as the use of force to obtain or implement these practices. That's where our rabid anti rhetoric comes from.

[Yamato]

Even a hippie commune or Kibbutz has an authority which regulates it. In the absence of any government people would come together to form a new one. It might be socialist or liberal or libertarian or communal or it could contain elements of all of these.

[F3SS]

Even a hippie commune or Kibbutz has an authority which regulates it.

Even still, it is not a national policy and all the people involved are there by choice.

Edited December 30, 2013 by F3SS

[Yamato]

Even still, it is not a national policy and all the people involved are there by choice.

You're free to revoke your US citizenship and leave at any time. I suspect the communes aren't much different, or are they?

[F3SS]

Guess that depends on how culty they are.

[Yamato]

To my point, there's no inherent superiority to a commune over other forms a society may take. No matter what it's called, it all depends on the quality of the handlers up above. As an American you may be far freer to go than a woman in a commune's husband would ever allow.

[Leonardo]

That's all pretty much what I figured. The underlying theme for people like me isn't about what the practice is as much as the use of force to obtain or implement these practices. That's where our rabid anti rhetoric comes from.

There are as many examples, in the US's history, of capitalism being implemented "by force", as examples of socialism being implemented by the same - so by your logic all those anti-socialists should also be anti-capitalists.

Or are you conflating socialism with totalitarianism?

[F3SS]

I don't know.

[toast]

Socialism yes or no, who cares. I call that swarm intelligence. 16.000 ppl spend just 2,75hrs per month each to get organic food for good prices. This system will also allow people who cannot or are not willing to pay higher prices for organic food, to buy these and so there will be a health benefit plus the ecological benefits. As this system works with margins just needed for the infrastructure like shop rent, energy, insurance and duty/taxes, the producers of these foods earn fair prices so that they can live from that business and continue that business. Again, great idea. And 2,75hrs per month is just peanuts compared to the monthly wasted time in average.

Edited December 30, 2013 by toast

[Beany]

It strikes me that the issue of national healthcare has been one framed around the ideal of socialism, when bottom line it's really about people having access to the healthcare they need. Is it possible that the focus has been taken off healthcare and shifted to socialism because being against healthcare wouldn't win any votes? Whereas being against socialism might win some votes? Even here on this thread the posts are about socialism instead of healthcare. And that's really what we're talking about, aren't we? Everyone being able to see a doctor or get medical treatment regardless of their income/wealth?

Edited December 31, 2013 by Beany

[Beany]

Here's a definition of a socialist economy from the online Free Dictionary: an economic system based on state ownership of capital. While national health care may be found in socialist systems, it doesn't make a country that offers national health care a socialist state, only that the two systems have this one thing in common.

[acidhead]

Yeah.. and I translate via paw signs with the Easter Bunny.

[Frank Merton]

Here's a definition of a socialist economy from the online Free Dictionary: an economic system based on state ownership of capital. While national health care may be found in socialist systems, it doesn't make a country that offers national health care a socialist state, only that the two systems have this one thing in common.

The national health care system of Vietnam is only partly socialist. The pharmacies and medical practices are all largely private, as are most of the hospitals and similar institutions, some with significant government participation.

People can buy insurance from either the government or from private insurers, but few except employees of foreign companies have such coverage, and the institutions you go to don't like it when you do because of the paperwork and payment schedules. They prefer and often require up-front payment.

However, costs are kept low a variety of ways. Suing for malpractice is unheard of; a corrupt or criminally negligent doctor will just go to jail. Pharmaceuticals in the government list are bought in bulk by the government via negotiated prices, much lower than what one could get it on one's own, and distributed to pharmacists. You need not have a prescription for the vast majority of drugs, just the okay of a licensed pharmacist. Medical educations are available almost free for those who qualify, and the rules for nurses and doctors are not nearly as elaborate as in the States, but I think do the job (American doctors have created a nice monopoly for themselves preventing nurses and so on from doing a lot of things doctors should not be needed for).

Delivery of health care is through clinics staffed with triage doctors and nurses and specialists, without a GP in sight. The costs are subsidized, but people are expected to ask about and pay up front costs, especially for minor things, which I think reduces a lot of waste and keeps the clinics competitive.

One thing I have noticed as I have aged is that the culture takes good care of its elderly and age does not seem to be nearly as much a factor in what care one gets as in the States. This is the opposite of what socialism is supposed to be about, and I think comes from the attitude of the culture.

[Likely Guy]

How have people extended the concept of Co-operatives to Communes and Communism?

The base word is 'co-operate' which is radical concept, I know. The next thing that'll happen is that people will start credit unions and micro-lending! OMG!

Edited December 31, 2013 by Likely Guy