What if the religionists have it correct?

[lightly]

the Religionists keep looking for God "out there" . ..that's all i can say.

[Bendy Demon]

What I am seeing is lots of people out there sitting on their hands waiting for 'god" to make everything better; most religions seem to do this.

So while they're waiting, things around them get worse then they wail about why "god" isn't doing anything about that neighbor girl who is being abused or the creepy guy stalking women at night or whatever.

No use waiting for some etheral being to fix things.

This is our world, we can solve our own problems. We have legs so why not get up and use them?

Edited December 30, 2013 by Ryu

[Euphorbia]

Nope, you have made a huge assumption - I have not been waiting for any such thing.

Maybe you haven't been waiting, but 'and then' and tens to hundreds of millions of Christians have.

I was merely playing to the OPs thought experiment - part of that thought experiment was to suspend skepticism and play the "what if" card - but you can't do that, and that is the substance of the division, nothing else.

So in other words, in order for the world to unite as one and live peacefully, everyone on the planet needs to suspend belief and see things the OP's way which you have no problems with because you share the same faith. I think you're a little biased.

How about all people of religion suspending their belief in a deity. That would remove the division that I see in this world. How many religions are there? How many times has Christianity split off into something a little different? Instead of coming together, your religion continually fractures.

Due to this, the OP's thought experiment is nothing but a pipe dream.....

[libstaK]

Maybe you haven't been waiting, but 'and then' and tens to hundreds of millions of Christians have.

So in other words, in order for the world to unite as one and live peacefully, everyone on the planet needs to suspend belief and see things the OP's way which you have no problems with because you share the same faith. I think you're a little biased.

What? Do you know what a thought experiment is? Just say you're not interested, don't make it into something that was nowhere in it's intent. It is not about a "specific faith", it just says God comes and makes him/herself known - I made it clear in prior posts that could mean that all current religions become irrelevant because what is revealed could turn out to have nothing to do with any particular dogma at all.

I never claimed that in order for the world to live peacefully anyone had to suspend belief, I stated that to participate in the thought experiment which says that God actually does appear to all mankind you would need to suspend belief or else how could you entertain the "what if" of the idea?

Stop creating strawmen to make presumptions about me with. The bias is all yours to the extent that you ignore what has actually been posted so you can continue with your misguided agenda.

How about all people of religion suspending their belief in a deity. That would remove the division that I see in this world. How many religions are there? How many times has Christianity split off into something a little different? Instead of coming together, your religion continually fractures.

Due to this, the OP's thought experiment is nothing but a pipe dream.....

How about creating a thread for that then, this one is not about that - of course it's a pipe dream, if that's the term you must use - it's not based in reality it's based on thoughts.

Edited December 30, 2013 by libstaK

[libstaK]

I can't help but to think many believers will too when they find out they've lost many freedoms.

Removing everyone who disagrees is only one way of forging peace. This Abrahamic deity has had more success at creating conflict.

And what are my best interests?

You would know best but if I was responsible for someone's best interests myself as a primary care giver for instance, I would consider that it is in their best interests to be safe from harm, emotional pain, hunger, sickness and have a roof over their heads, clothing to keep them warm and personal space and time to devote to their chosen interests/pursuits.

[+and-then]

Is that strictly what LG meant? I took it as more that given the thought experiment especially established that God, whatever his nature made direct contact with ALL of us then the secularists would be included in those that had a current experience to work with. Also, secularists could include those that have no specific religion, believe in God and at the same time believe that society should be run by secular laws to remain inclusive of all members (you can correct any part of this LG that is just how I understood what you said).

I may well have misunderstood him. Surely when the Creator returns he will not ignore any of his creation but possibly he will deal with those who reject his ways differently than those who willingly accept them. Frankly, the "experiment" wasn't designed to argue endlessly over the right of a Creator to do as he will with his creation - as Rlyeh and others here will no doubt want to do. That is their right and I understand that some personalities will never under any circumstance be willing to give up on self will for the betterment of all. That is a separate issue from this discussion. My idea was for people to allow themselves to expand on the ideas of what might be accomplished once we were all WILLING to be led by the Creator. Anyone who would rather hang on to self will even when it is proven to be self destructive will necessarily be excluded from God's plan at some point. Otherwise he would harm the majority for the sake of the rebellious few. Hence the idea of freely accepting the gift of grace in Christianity. I would add though, that I completely understand why those who cling to self will do so. They have no faith and they have only seen the destruction that systems CONTROLLED BY MAN are capable of. It would truly be a whole new experience to be in the presence of an all powerful being that looked upon his creation with love and concern rather than man's selfish approach. Think of a world where everyone WILLINGLY was like Christ. This is the place where the dream would take off - where do you think we could go from there?

[+and-then]

]

By "he IS about to return to set things in order", do you mean in a Revelation kind of way, a cleansing fire kind of thing, or do you mean the actual Kingdom of God, however one wants to see it, as promised by Jesus (which may or may not be the same thing, depending on whether you see him as believing the apocalyptic school of thought)? Personally I think nearly all conflict is simply because one group believes that they're right and that they're so convinced they're right that everyone else should see things the same way as they do; but in fact they're all wrong, not in believing that their particular approach is the way to reach God, it may well be for them, but in believing that everyone else should follow their way. I think what I would like to happen is just for people to realise that the God they're talking about is all the same one at the end of the day, This doesn't mean the suppression of individual religions or organised religion in general, in fact just the opposite, for people of differing and sometimes opposing faiths to realise that there's something they can learn from others.

And if only the more militant of the Atheist community would just lay off being so angry all the time, perhaps they too could realise that religion, and individual religions, could offer something of value to communities and to humanity in general.

The question presupposes the existence of an all powerful being. It presupposes that this being has the ability to forcibly (if necessary) make everything under it's dominion behave in a certain way. So when he/it arrives to communicate in person then those who openly rebel will be removed from the scene for the good of all. This thread isn't designed to be a retread of whether any Creator has the RIGHT to do any of this. It is about accepting it as a done deal and looking at what progress we could make as a species if hatred and war were removed from our nature. I see I'm fighting a losing battle even trying to raise it as a possibility though

eta: I believe that the whole "armageddon" thing isn't God attacking humanity - it's about humanity attempting to attack God. You have to admit, I think, that humans do one thing exceptionally well above all others: we attack and destroy.

Edited December 30, 2013 by and then

[+and-then]

I can't help but to think many believers will too when they find out they've lost many freedoms.

Removing everyone who disagrees is only one way of forging peace. This Abrahamic deity has had more success at creating conflict.

And what are my best interests?

I can't help but to think many believers will too when they find out they've lost many freedoms.

Removing everyone who disagrees is only one way of forging peace. This Abrahamic deity has had more success at creating conflict.

And what are my best interests?

I have no idea what your best interests are -do you? What it seems to me that you are expressing is that nothing and no one could possibly know more or be more qualified than YOU to create a plan for living in peace with others and making you prosperous. You therefore rebel against any authority. Essentially what a person of this mindset is saying is that there is nothing higher than their own self will and intellect and they are willing to bring down heaven and earth to do things their own way. The Creator created THEM also When he returns I assume he will have a chat with them and explain everything to their satisfaction or simply remove them and move on. We only have a human experience to use as a model of behavior and this is how even a benign leader would have to act.

[+and-then]

What I am seeing is lots of people out there sitting on their hands waiting for 'god" to make everything better; most religions seem to do this.

So while they're waiting, things around them get worse then they wail about why "god" isn't doing anything about that neighbor girl who is being abused or the creepy guy stalking women at night or whatever.

No use waiting for some etheral being to fix things.

This is our world, we can solve our own problems. We have legs so why not get up and use them?

It's a valid point though it has nothing whatever to do with what the thread was supposed to be about. The point is that humanity is millions of years old and we continue to lust, fight, kill, steal... I'm not sure why anyone would think that is going to change from some internal effort.

[libstaK]

I may well have misunderstood him. Surely when the Creator returns he will not ignore any of his creation but possibly he will deal with those who reject his ways differently than those who willingly accept them. Frankly, the "experiment" wasn't designed to argue endlessly over the right of a Creator to do as he will with his creation - as Rlyeh and others here will no doubt want to do. That is their right and I understand that some personalities will never under any circumstance be willing to give up on self will for the betterment of all. That is a separate issue from this discussion. My idea was for people to allow themselves to expand on the ideas of what might be accomplished once we were all WILLING to be led by the Creator. Anyone who would rather hang on to self will even when it is proven to be self destructive will necessarily be excluded from God's plan at some point. Otherwise he would harm the majority for the sake of the rebellious few. Hence the idea of freely accepting the gift of grace in Christianity. I would add though, that I completely understand why those who cling to self will do so. They have no faith and they have only seen the destruction that systems CONTROLLED BY MAN are capable of. It would truly be a whole new experience to be in the presence of an all powerful being that looked upon his creation with love and concern rather than man's selfish approach. Think of a world where everyone WILLINGLY was like Christ. This is the place where the dream would take off - where do you think we could go from there?

Well to be honest - your version of what it means to have the Creator amongst us presupposes we lose our right to self determination in some way by "being willing to be led" by him. I differ here, I think the presence is the difference in our minds about what is of true value made manifest. If God is amongst us then our view of the material world, the spiritual and what is of value radically alters, it is not about being willing to be of a particular mindset it is about conscious awareness of our true nature and relationship to the divine and how that will inform our view of the world and what we choose to do in it.

Where do we GO from there? We are there, it makes power over others futile, riches unnecessary, the provision of all our needs is manifest amongst us, the fear of lack is gone, the jealous guarding of our wordly goods seems crazy to contemplate in the face of realisation of the eternal soul - no material object, soulless and subject to entropy can compare to our realisation of ourselves as spiritual beings, children of a creator etc.

Also, the idea that some will be excluded from God's plan speaks to the idea that Gods Plan is incapable of providing for all and that there are things in the hearts and minds of men that God cannot change through providing realisation of truth - I will beg to differ there, because there is no favored child, we are all equal, it would be at the absolute crux of any epithany that changed our worldview toward love and peace that all are deserving of love and peace and a means to give each person the realisation of love and peace is universally available regardless of individual differences, always - any judgement toward some being excluded just seeps division right back into the minds of all men.

[Wickian]

Humans are tribal by nature. There will always be something else to divide us into our collective groups. We have good and bad times to lesser and greater degree's, but this will never change.

[libstaK]

Humans are tribal by nature. There will always be something else to divide us into our collective groups. We have good and bad times to lesser and greater degree's, but this will never change.

Isn't it the crux of our tribal nature that we are separated into groups of belief? If God is amongst us, it's no longer about different beliefs it's about a globally shared experience and knowledge.

[Wickian]

Even if God himself did come down to unite us, I genuinely don't think it would work. Then you would just end up with various larger factions separating from each other. Instead of by culture, or country, or race it would probably be mono-theistic religions against anyone else, and then further fractures would come from there.

It might not be the kind of divisions that bring war, but they will still be there. That Us vs Them mentality.

[shadowhive]

So here's the point of the thread - what do YOU see happening, specifically? What kinds of changes and advances? Have fun with it and dream into reality!

Duncan

Well if god came down, as you suggestI thinkit would be the end of the human race. Why? Because what would result wouldn't be human. Sure there might be peace, there might be unity and an end to all hunger and all that stuff, which sounds good on paper doesn't it? Don't get me wrong, those things would be great. The problem is that god would be running the show 'exerting his will' to accomplish those things. And what would humanity do then? Well from what I hear from religious people its that we'd 'serve god'. Whatever that entails exactly (what would an all powerful god need us to do in the first place?) it sounds a whole lot like enslaving the population.

I'm reminded of the tv series Angel. In it a 'god' was born. People in her prescence became happy and peaceful, but they didn't know that he required humans for food. I'm just saying that as an example. A similar sitution could happen (a sufficiently advanced alien could come down 'prove' they were god by advanced means and take controlof us completely).

Personally, I'd not want god to come donw. Certainly not the god of earthly religions as he seems the sort to, oh I dunno, condemning people to eternal damnation/death for the slightest infraction. That doesn't sound like someone who'd make a very positive impact on us, not without culling a significant part of the population beforehand. Which, last I checked, was genocide which is a bad thing, regardless of it being god that does it.

[SHaYap]

HUman has learned the ways of godliness but forgot that to be godlike, first HUman must unlearn all that, that makes them an unsuccessful HUman ~

.

[docyabut2]

Not to peach or anything but in looking for God ,Jesus had said the kingdom of God was within , the holy trinity, all being perfected into one and demonstrated by washing another's feet that no one was better or less not even he, that we are all one in the spirit of truth and some day we will know that truth . I believe Jesus whole minstery was to show there is no outer God but a inter God. That God is not a human being sitting on a throne, but a force of life and love and all that is good.

Edited December 31, 2013 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

To add the world might have to go though a lot of hell before we get to that point, that mankind is one. just like in the belief in evolution that human kind is of everything of this earth, and the universe.

Edited December 31, 2013 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

John 10 30- I and my Father are one

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, Ye are gods!

[Rlyeh]

I have no idea what your best interests are -do you? What it seems to me that you are expressing is that nothing and no one could possibly know more or be more qualified than YOU to create a plan for living in peace with others and making you prosperous. You therefore rebel against any authority. Essentially what a person of this mindset is saying is that there is nothing higher than their own self will and intellect and they are willing to bring down heaven and earth to do things their own way. The Creator created THEM also When he returns I assume he will have a chat with them and explain everything to their satisfaction or simply remove them and move on. We only have a human experience to use as a model of behavior and this is how even a benign leader would have to act.

I have no problem with authority as long as it does it's job and keep out of people's thoughts. Edited December 31, 2013 by Rlyeh

[Likely Guy]

Is that strictly what LG meant? I took it as more that given the thought experiment especially established that God, whatever his nature made direct contact with ALL of us then the secularists would be included in those that had a current experience to work with. Also, secularists could include those that have no specific religion, believe in God and at the same time believe that society should be run by secular laws to remain inclusive of all members (you can correct any part of this LG that is just how I understood what you said).

No, that's pretty accurate. It is a 'thought experiment' after all.

[Likely Guy]

That is true. Secularism and Agnosticism isn't necessarily the same thing as Atheism.

Colonel, you do have a way of boiling something down to the fewest truest words.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

Personally, I'd not want god to come donw. Certainly not the god of earthly religions as he seems the sort to, oh I dunno, condemning people to eternal damnation/death for the slightest infraction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md4DAnvEmJo Edited January 9, 2014 by No-thingBornPassion

[XenoFish]

What if all religions are right and their just worshiping different aspects of god? As for god coming to earth and all that, I don't really see a point in it? It would cause mass chaos, possibly war. What if we found out god was a alien. Just too many what if's.

High it's me god, how you been.

[White Crane Feather]

I think we are attempting to approach this. Technology is uniting the world like never before and has the potential to bring about on earth what has been promised by religion. I think we are at a tenuous crossroads. A birth if you will. We either perish in the danger and the Pain of labour or we will give birth to god on earth with all the fulfilled promises of religions. It's not hard to imagine the incredible power humanity will hold once we master nature and biology. Eternal life, zero suffering, no hungar. The revolution wil free up the human mind to really stretch out to the stars. Hell, if we end up with star treck like technology and holo decks, the extremeists can even have their 1000 Virgins.

Edited January 9, 2014 by White Crane Feather

[Frank Merton]

The reason the religions almost certainly have it wrong is pretty obvious from the fact of how they maintain themselves, with force and ostracism, with indoctrination, especially of children, and with making a virtue out of unreasoning faith.