What kind of proof is needed?

[Jacques Terreur]

personally, i don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in anything i don't experience first hand. But i also don't dismiss their existence.

They're sorted in the "highly unlikely, but, who knows" - drawer of my brain, and i guess it needs a full body apparition for me to get convinced.

or other forms of contact:

I look at it this way - well over 100 billion people have been estimated to have lived on this planet.

Listening to "ghost hunters", psychics, and mediums, they would lead us to believe that ghosts are everywhere.

Given the sheer numbers of dead folks, if ghosts were real, we'd be swimming in the damned things and there would be zero doubt of their existence. We would see them everywhere and they'd be as much a reality as the sun rising and setting each day. We'd see them walking across the set on the evening news, in pretty much any building we go in, and certainly in places where mass tragedies occurred - think about the footprint of the World Trade Center as an example.

that's a VERY good point and the most convincing one that makes me go "meh!" nowadays when it comes to the topic of ghosts.

There seems to be a way around this argument though. When i was way, way younger, i used to be very fascinated by this whole thing, and i read all kinds of books about ghosts and all that jazz.

I remember one in particular (it even had a foreword by C.G.Jung), that basically stated that us humans are merely a kind of larvae stadium of existence, and after death,we leave our earth-bound body and continue to exist in a bodyless, "higher" form, in another level or dimension or something. Only the ones that died very suddenly and/or before completely "growing up" would stick around, trapped on earth as "ghosts".

you still got a point on the WTC though then.....

[Likely Guy]

...I remember one in particular (it even had a foreword by C.G.Jung), that basically stated that us humans are merely a kind of larvae stadium of existence, and after death,we leave our earth-bound body and continue to exist in a bodyless, "higher" form, in another level or dimension or something.

I'm a BIG fan of Carl Jung. Do you remember the title? Anyways, back to the topic.

[NiteMarcher]

One may see them, the other may hear them, and another may feel them, or simply just sense them hanging around. Whatever way one happens to perceive them, I believe it is clearly meant for that one individual only...and proof may be hard to come by...

If everyone else around them wants to get in on the action, they'll just have to be patient and wait in line, cause it may happen to them maybe once in their lifetime, or not at all...and if it doesn't, than it just wasn't meant to be...

[+and-then]

VERIDICAL APPARITIONS

We have seen several examples of apparitions that seem to convey information not known to the percipient, which upon checking, turned out to be accurate. We classify such cases as veridical: that is, the experiences provide information that corresponds with facts. The following apparition conveyed information about an inconsequential detail that turned out to be correct. THE CASE OF A SOLDIERS'S DEATH...This and other cases all involved information that could plausibly have been known to someone who was alive at the time, and are open to an explanation in terms of telepathy among the living...However the following case is more difficult to explain in this manner. THE CHAFFIN WILL CASE...(from Science and the Afterlife Experience by Chris Carter)

The dead appeared to say the revised will could be found by looking in a jacket pocket containing information that would lead to its hidden location.

"It should be clear that what makes these cases so compelling is that they seem to be evidence of genuine communication with the deceased person in question"--Carter

This phenomenon could be accounted for if it was a demonic manifestation. Demons are ancient and have seen much and could easily report on activities from many of our (humanities) relatively brief past lives Giving facts about those lives would give them instant credibility. What purpose such visits and interactions would serve, I have no clue.

One of the strongest experiences I've had concerning the existence of spirits was my grandfather. The day before he died I took his hand and told him everything would be alright. They kept him heavily sedated due to the pain the lung cancer was causing him. He was unresponsive to everyone except me. He squeezed my hand gently after I told him that it would be ok to go. That night I was woken by someone tapping my bedside table. I saw my grandpa, he smiled and was gone. The next morning (I didn't sleep) we had a call that he died that night. Ever since then I've delved into the occult trying to figure stuff out.

And THIS... these are the one's that I wonder most about. They serve no evil purpose at all. In fact they offer nothing but comfort. I think of these events as separate from "ghost manifestations"...these are simply a spirit that is moving on saying goodbye to comfort one we love.

[markprice]

This phenomenon could be accounted for if it was a demonic manifestation. Demons are ancient and have seen much and could easily report on activities from many of our (humanities) relatively brief past lives Giving facts about those lives would give them instant credibility. What purpose such visits and interactions would serve, I have no clue.

The document contested the previous will in which all was given to one person. So you can imagine this in court for one of the most well documented and thoroughly researched cases in history. In the end nobody could dispute it. He had sewn a letter into an inside jacket pocket which guided them to 27 chapter of genesis in the old family bible--Jacob supplanted the older brother to win his birthright--but his death was so sudden he never got the chance to tell anyone he had revised his will. Demons don't usually make things right in a family.

As far as there being a traffic jam of ghosts, there is a lot of room in infinity unless you try to reduce it to space/time.

[questionmark]

none, factual evidence would suffice.

[Sergeant]

There's people on both ends of the spectrum. Some consider any uninvestigated bump in the night a ghost/spirit while others who have actually experienced and witnessed one (by their own admittance) refuse to acknowledge it.

If a person is on a ghost hunt... especially in a place rumored to be haunted then it's an automatic setup for runaway imagination within the subconsious mind. Going with a group can easily degress into mass hysteria. Contrast being on a ghost hunt where you are hopeful and expecting a suprise from the beyond from experiencing the opposite. It is a much different matter when your mind isn't expecting the unexpected. For instance you are in your living room comfortable by yourself or with a friend watching a popular non-ghost related TV show. A concert for example and an object flies off the shelf or slides across a table upon its own accord.

Or you're sitting up in bed watching late night news about tomorrow's weather and "something" you can't see sits next to you and it's quite obvious by all observation and reasoning. On the other hand, deciphering fuzzy and distorted EVP's are no different than viewing ink blots on cards.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Sergeant

[XenoFish]

I never had a authentic demonic encounter other than staying up all night hopped up on jolt cola (aah the 90's). Freaked myself out. I don't trust evp because I wonder if their picking up t.v. or radio frequencies. I'm about 50/50 on video and photo evidence. The mind can "see" stuff that isn't there mostly due to pattern recognition. Yet, there are some strange thing's I've witnessed that I can't explain away. Objects moving without anyone touching them. My grandpa. The rare precog moments that come to pass. I think we're capable of more than we know. I don't think ghost are everywhere, if anything there more like residual memories locked into a place. Even then I've yet to hear of anyone being killed by a demon or ghost. I honestly don't think anyone really summons some of the things they claim (demons, angels, gods, etc). Why would something like that obey our will.

[DancingCorpse]

I don't think any photographic or recorded evidence will ever be enough, absolutely everything can be reproduced through editing software these days, we're also surrounded by Hollywood bonanzas and ludicrous special effects. I feel that actual paranormal manifestations will underwhelm many folks due to this conditioning, it'll be like well, that wasn't exemplary enough! It is easy to tell what is artificial with videos, there are often traits where one can tell within five seconds if something is staged to maximize views Photographs are much more difficult and I'd imagine easier to grab than recordings of apparent manifestations, orbs and part manifestations are 99% more frequent to full manifestations anyhow but this works against their perceived validity. One of the only videos that I'd consider possible evidence is one of apparent soldiers marching in Gettysburg on youtube which I find extremely interesting, there are only vague wisps of figures but you can pick out small details and marching formation but it is half-faded out, those are the types of examples I find potentially intriguing, I see no reason for any person to fake something so lackluster in its execution.

Edited January 4, 2014 by DancingCorpse

[Occult1]

I look at it this way - well over 100 billion people have been estimated to have lived on this planet.

Listening to "ghost hunters", psychics, and mediums, they would lead us to believe that ghosts are everywhere.

Given the sheer numbers of dead folks, if ghosts were real, we'd be swimming in the damned things and there would be zero doubt of their existence. We would see them everywhere and they'd be as much a reality as the sun rising and setting each day. We'd see them walking across the set on the evening news, in pretty much any building we go in, and certainly in places where mass tragedies occurred - think about the footprint of the World Trade Center as an example.

You've got a point but that's simply assuming that every dead person become a ''ghost'' and it need not be so. You fail to consider in your analysis that what we call ''spirits'' or ''ghosts'' could be a process or a state that occur only under certain cirumstances.

And even then, we are assuming that ''ghosts'' are deceased people returning among the living but that's not the only theory available.

Edited January 4, 2014 by sam_comm

[Brian Topp]

You've got a point but that's simply assuming that every dead person become a ''ghost'' and it need not be so. You fail to consider in your analysis that what we call ''spirits'' or ''ghosts'' could be a process or a state that occur only under certain cirumstances.

And even then, we are assuming that ''ghosts'' are deceased people returning among the living but that's not the only theory available.

You fail to say, What you just said is sheer speculation on your behalf.

[Occult1]

You fail to say, What you just said is sheer speculation on your behalf.

No more than the assumption that ''ghosts'' are our grandmas and uncle Ben coming back to say goodbye. I think that if we are comfortable with this assumption it is necessery to consider that, with regard to how the phenomenon has been recorded overtime, every single dead person need not become a ghost for these phenomenon to occur. It looks more subtle than that to me.

Edited January 4, 2014 by sam_comm

[Brian Topp]

No more than the assumption that ''ghosts'' are our grandmas and uncle Ben coming back to say goodbye. I think that if we are comfortable with this assumption it is necessery to consider that, with regard to how the phenomenon has been recorded overtime, every single dead person need not become a ghost for these phenomenon to occur. It looks more subtle than that to me.

The whole concept of spirits or after life has no solid proof, only thought of fancy or superstition with the aid of the media.

[markprice]

The whole concept of spirits or after life has no solid proof, only thought of fancy or superstition with the aid of the media.

[Jacques Terreur]

[markprice]

Too bad that's illegal.

I was quoting from the book I posted; what part of the book you posted talks of the afterlife experience?

[Jacques Terreur]

the book is illegal? i get back with some quotes when i find the time

[acute]

Nobody else's proof is ever enough. What you need is repeated personal experiences.

I lived in a haunted house for over 25 years, and have witnessed varied and undeniable phenomena, but any skeptic (on UM or elsewhere) can simply say to me "Where's your proof?"

[Euryleia]

Not everything you may see that looks like a paranormal entity is a Ghost. And this other 'thing' tends to mislead the victims in thinking they are a Ghost in many cases. Does this mean that every non-human ghostly figure is a Ghost? Come on now. I'm sure Souls have more to do than roam the world looking for their lost cellphones.

[Occult1]

The whole concept of spirits or after life has no solid proof, only thought of fancy or superstition with the aid of the media.

Agreed with the first part of your sentence. I've yet to see a piece of material evidence that isn't controversial. Even if analysed in a forensic labs, we can't succesfully confirm to the presence of a ''ghost'' of a ''spirit''. It remains to the status of ''anomalies''.

I do not share your view on the second part however. There has been serious investigations done by competent and trained folks, that meticulously documented a considerable amount of case. The patterns ans consistency of various ''ghost'' experience is striking and hard to ignore. I do think that there is more than fancy and media behind the phenomenon though it may certainly be responsible for amplifying it. The absence of solid proof doesn't rule out the legitimacy of these experiences. More research and data need be done and gathered.

Edited January 4, 2014 by sam_comm

[Brian Topp]

Nobody else's proof is ever enough. What you need is repeated personal experiences.

I lived in a haunted house for over 25 years, and have witnessed varied and undeniable phenomena, but any skeptic (on UM or elsewhere) can simply say to me "Where's your proof?"

If we lived in a perfect world where people have a photographic memory, a bias mind, isn't out for attention or money or both

[Jacques Terreur]

Too bad that's illegal.

I was quoting from the book I posted; what part of the book you posted talks of the afterlife experience?

here's the wikipedia article about Strassman and his work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Strassman

In the book, he explains his theory of how near-death- or other similar experiences might be the result of the DRM-Molecule being released from the pineal gland. It stays rather hypothetical though, but i found it an interesting read nevertheless.

It might not really fit, but to be honest with you: i just liked the idea to answer your post of a book cover by posting another book cover....

[markprice]

the book is illegal? i get back with some quotes when i find the time

DMT is something I would try if it was available; probably better left to shamanic ritual.

here's the wikipedia article about Strassman and his work.

http://en.wikipedia..../Rick_Strassman

In the book, he explains his theory of how near-death- or other similar experiences might be the result of the DRM-Molecule being released from the pineal gland. It stays rather hypothetical though, but i found it an interesting read nevertheless.

It might not really fit, but to be honest with you: i just liked the idea to answer your post of a book cover by posting another book cover....

NDEs point to liberation of consciousness from the physical brain yet they are not entirely dead so skeptics remind everyone of that fact. The afterlife experience goes beyond NDE and the need for a brain. It's a literally a no-brainer: the brainless still seem to exist. lol, nevermind.

[sinewave]

I'm a bit nervous as I'm not much of a conversation starter. Here goes:

What would it take for you to believe in ghosts? As a disclaimer, I do not believe there is any evidence for ghosts, but the topic intrigues me deeply.

We know photos and videos can be faked.

We know that scientists can be fooled (it's rare, but it can happen).

Me personally? I would want to experience it myself. I would want verification of my event.

Perfect set up (for me): 'Haunted' location, myself. Video cameras on 100% of the time. No lights off. A team of at least four skeptics. I would want all five of us to experience the same thing at the same time. I would want said experience to repeat several times.

No EVP needed, no dramatic music. Just a well lit, repeated experience. Then, I would believe there is evidence for something we cannot explain.

What would you want, what would it take for you to consider it possible?

The fundamental concept here would be demonstrating that human consciousness is separate from the living body and can survive death. The basic premise being consciousness does not require the brain or any part of the physical body. Of course this notion contradicts established science.

[Nightmaker47]

Not saying ghosts are real or not, but I think proof is something that probably won't ever be achieved. The problem with EVPs and any other ghostly tools is that there can be so many confounded factors: aliens, radio, etc.

There is no way to prove that ghosts exist without first eliminating these factors. Question is, how do we distinguish them? That's something to consider about before claiming anything as proof.