3gben3g Posted January 4, 2014 #1 Share Posted January 4, 2014 why is lucifer or satan the bad guy in Christianity and other religions ? isit because he tempted eve in the garden ? isit because he tempted jesus ? why does his name translate as the morning star or light bringer and be the embodiment of darkness , the beast , the devil , satan the accuser ect . from my understanding it was the serpent or the fallen angels that gave man knowledge no ? and that it was god who relased the ten plagues , caused the flood , allowed the satan or adversary to test job ect im no satanist or luciferian i wouldnt worship nobody but i dont understand why he is the bad guy if im not mistaken he had free wil according to the bible and decided to challenge god because he thought he could do or was better than god . itis is similar to greek mythology's prometheus legend in a way where the titan steals fire from zeus to give to mankind like a gift from the gods and is chained to a rock having a eagle of zeus peck his liver out every day for eternity because he gave man fire which brings light he was the lucifer light bringer of humanity . found there is book comparing the two here , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_and_Prometheus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted January 4, 2014 #2 Share Posted January 4, 2014 From a storytelling POV it's because you need a villain. From a historical POV it's because he lost. From a Bibilical one it's because he's not that nice a being. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skep B Posted January 4, 2014 #3 Share Posted January 4, 2014 From a cosmetic POV, he has horns and likes fire. neither of which are particularly cuddly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaperS_ParadoX Posted January 5, 2014 #4 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I thought Lucifer was his name when he was still in heaven, and doing whatever his job was in heaven, the bible doesn't say what that job was. He only became known as Satan when he was thrown out of heaven, and its not like God didn't give him chances to Obey him, I think he was coming down out of heaven and making trouble on earth and then going back to heaven. back and forth for a while. Then God stopped him. Satan or Lucifer wanted to be a God and worshipped and when he questioned Gods right to rule in front of all the otherangels God threw him out of heaven, But the thing is he took a lot of angels that agreed with him also. I don't think Satan is generally a nice being that's looking out for humans 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skep B Posted January 5, 2014 #5 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I dunno how cannonical it is, my theology is a little rusty.. But I believe he was something of the choir leader. Whereas Michael was the leader of the millitary aspects, Lucifer was meant to be that for teh worship aspects. again, probably no cannonical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaperS_ParadoX Posted January 5, 2014 #6 Share Posted January 5, 2014 he took a significant amount of the Angels with him, when he was thrown down. But then they became known as demons. your Right Michael was pretty much the military leader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecoNoir Posted January 5, 2014 #7 Share Posted January 5, 2014 If one actually reads the Bible, there is actually very little to imply that Satan is some sort of adversary of God. Most of what we now associate with the character come from Milton's "Paradise Lost", ie. the war in Heaven, Lucifer the light giver, etc. I'm not positive as to whether Milton got this from any other text, religious or otherwise. As some have previously pointed out, the Serpent of Eden is called just that, a serpent. Never positivly identified as anything divine or demonic. In other words: The very existence of Satan the Adversary is sketchy at best. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatus1 Posted January 5, 2014 #8 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Never forget: The bible is just one side of the story, and the winner's side at that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaperS_ParadoX Posted January 5, 2014 #9 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Never forget: The bible is just one side of the story, and the winner's side at that. Have you guys ever seen The Devils Advocate? Al Pacino plays Lucifer, Keanu Reeves says in the bible you lose, Al Pacino replies " well look at the source, and where it's coming from" love that movie!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted January 5, 2014 #10 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Just a reminder that Satan only killed 10 people (Book of Job) in the entire Bible, but it was under God's authority.In the OT Satan is an Angel under God's Will, and in the NT he is a tempter to Christ, and Revelation is what inspired later Dante's Inferno along with other works all ready mentioned. Yes the Snake is just a Snake, but punished to eat Dust, and strike at Man's Heels after the Garden.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted January 5, 2014 #11 Share Posted January 5, 2014 HIstory of the devil in text file from sacred-texts dot com link or go to sacred-texts downloads for more link just unzip the text file with any unpacker THE HISTORY OF THE DEVIL AND THE IDEA OF EVIL FROM THE EARLIEST TIMES TO THE PRESENT DAY by PAUL CARUS GOOD AND EVIL AS RELIGIOUS IDEAS. THIS WORLD OF OURS is a world of opposites. There is light and shade, there is heat and cold, there is good and evil, there is God and the Devil. The dualistic conception of nature has been a necessary phase in the evolution of human thought. We find the same views of good and evil spirits prevailing among all the peoples of the earth at the very beginning of that stage of their development which, in the phraseology of Tylor, is commonly called Animism. But the principle of unity dominates the development of thought. Man tries to unify his conceptions in a consistent and harmonious Monism. Accordingly, while the belief in good spirits tended towards the formation of the doctrine of Monotheism, the belief in evil spirits led naturally to the acceptance of a single supreme evil deity, conceived as embodying all that is bad, destructive, and immoral. History of the Devil, by Paul Carus, [1900], at sacred-texts.com A highly recommended Great read ... ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gben3g Posted January 5, 2014 Author #12 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) If one actually reads the Bible, there is actually very little to imply that Satan is some sort of adversary of God. Most of what we now associate with the character come from Milton's "Paradise Lost", ie. the war in Heaven, Lucifer the light giver, etc. I'm not positive as to whether Milton got this from any other text, religious or otherwise. As some have previously pointed out, the Serpent of Eden is called just that, a serpent. Never positivly identified as anything divine or demonic. In other words: The very existence of Satan the Adversary is sketchy at best. satan is only mentioned in the OT about 19 times apparently dont no how many times in the NT , i have not read paradise lost but i do agree with what you said that the very existence is sketchy at best . Never forget: The bible is just one side of the story, and the winner's side at that. i agree itis only one side of the story , i have heard christian people say many times over that lucifer is the god of this world and that our society is basically satanic in that respect as it was him that gave man knowledge or teachings . if you look at satanic symbols or what is said to refer to satanism in symbolism you see lots and lots of celeb's putting up signs and politicians , presidents in music videos theres some great videos on this on youtube but thing about these videos is its always a christian that made the effort to make the video exposing certain individuals when im aware that satanism doesnt always imply they worship satan as god not always but kind of worshiping yourself as your own god by doing what you want but then theres the luciferian religion where he is worshiped as god and the light giver to mankind ect i am also aware of the ritual sacrifices involving animals which disgusts me tho bigtime , there were burnt offering as sacrifice in the bible and wasnt it an angel that saved abraham's son issac from being scarifced by abraham ? Edited January 5, 2014 by 3gben3g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted January 5, 2014 #13 Share Posted January 5, 2014 As I understand it the Hebrews already had a angel who served as God's "devil's advocate" as in Job, but wasn't really evil, just doing a job. Later they went under Persian influence and here is where their Shatan became Satan the Devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gben3g Posted January 5, 2014 Author #14 Share Posted January 5, 2014 As I understand it the Hebrews already had a angel who served as God's "devil's advocate" as in Job, but wasn't really evil, just doing a job. Later they went under Persian influence and here is where their Shatan became Satan the Devil. who was that frank ? the ' advocate ' , who is azazel aswel wasnt he also punished prometheus style for giving to man , some people think that shaitan or satan is comparable to the feathered serpent quetzalcoatl i dont no maybe there reading to much into the serpent thing but the serpent or symbolism of serpents is common among the ancient world , i think the serpent also is a symbol for knowledge wisdom fertility ect found this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28symbolism%29#African_mythology - quite interesting . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gben3g Posted January 5, 2014 Author #15 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Have you guys ever seen The Devils Advocate? Al Pacino plays Lucifer, Keanu Reeves says in the bible you lose, Al Pacino replies " well look at the source, and where it's coming from" love that movie!! havent seen that movie in years , isnt it like a law firm that al pachino runs or something to do with law and justice and keanu turns out to be his son is that right ? i like the gabriel byrne version in end of days of satan is preety cool . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted January 5, 2014 #16 Share Posted January 5, 2014 43Alley makes good videos...Check it out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thyra Posted January 5, 2014 #17 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) Satan means accuser Iblis means deceiver you can only accuse what is not of yours and deceive what doesnt have your scope of senses. According to quran it was an angel. I dont remember any place where it is stated it was/is different from other angels until the point Adam is created. (If I am wrong somebody correct me.) It just didnt bow to Adam unlike the other angels when it is ordered to do so. IMPO I think it was a natural split with the creation of Adam completed Seytan needed to come into existence to balance something because an angel transformed along with Adams creation.This just doesnt happen through the will of angels.They dont have free will. its duty ends after the judgement day. Edited January 5, 2014 by thyra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted January 5, 2014 #18 Share Posted January 5, 2014 IMPO I think it was a natural split with the creation of Adam completed Seytan needed to come into existence to balance something because an angel transformed along with Adams creation.This just doesnt happen through the will of angels.They dont have free will. its duty ends after the judgement day. Do you assign yourself to a specific Religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thyra Posted January 5, 2014 #19 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Do you assign yourself to a specific Religion? yes, I consider myself muslim. Notice that I said "in my personal opinion" before starting that paragraph. There are many levels of . reading a book. that is not only for religious books. There are degrees of self in islamic mysticism called tasavvuf for example. it is only about yourself and your understanding of yourself. When you say there is no evil in gods creation that only remains as a topic for wide discussion where people will demand proof but in personal level you can connect to this understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted January 5, 2014 #20 Share Posted January 5, 2014 He is at least smarter than his counterpart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted January 5, 2014 #21 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) yes, I consider myself muslim. Notice that I said "in my personal opinion" before starting that paragraph. There are many levels of . reading a book. that is not only for religious books. There are degrees of self in islamic mysticism called tasavvuf for example. it is only about yourself and your understanding of yourself. When you say there is no evil in gods creation that only remains as a topic for wide discussion where people will demand proof but in personal level you can connect to this understanding. You are mesmorized by the Quran........I am 30 minutes in on a lecture of the linguistic miracle of the Quran.Two more hours to go......OY VAY! Btw...In the Quran, Shaytan was all ready there when Allah (swt) made Adam from Mud/Clay.So I see why it's your opinion. Edited January 5, 2014 by davros of skaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted January 5, 2014 #22 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I haven't seen anything in the Bible where Lucifer is anything more than a human king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gben3g Posted January 5, 2014 Author #23 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I haven't seen anything in the Bible where Lucifer is anything more than a human king. king of babylon ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted January 5, 2014 #24 Share Posted January 5, 2014 king of babylon ? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thyra Posted January 5, 2014 #25 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) You are mesmorized by the Quran........I am 30 minutes in on a lecture of the linguistic miracle of the Quran.Two more hours to go......OY VAY! Btw...In the Quran, Shaytan was all ready there when Allah (swt) made Adam from Mud/Clay.So I see why it's your opinion. I didnt say seytan wasnt there when adam was created. I said I didnt catch any info stating if seytan's will was different from other angels in terms of their nature of exercise of will. since angels dont have free will.. with the creation of adam though he could so to say 'rebel'. My point is with the creation of adam, that angel naturally had different significance in the existence to balance something. it seperates man from god so to speak. Edited January 5, 2014 by thyra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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