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The Curse of Oak Island


Myles

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I have to say it this season tried for way too many episodes they have a lot of filler.  I think 18 is probably their right number.

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On 4/10/2019 at 6:50 AM, Kenemet said:

Quite true.  Those are authentic Templar crosses.

No, the object is a cross but the wall graffiti is a crucifix (cross with crucified Christ on it.)  Crucifixes and crosses both existed for a long time before the 14th century.

The Templars were Christian monks.  They didn't deal with pagan symbolism... and in any case, they would hardly have had a goddess shown anywhere -- they were forbidden to have contact with women (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar#Organization) and even their horses and dogs had to be male, not female.  While women were allowed to join Templar convents in the very earliest days, this was soon changed and by the 14th century the organization was exclusively male and contact with women was prohibited.  http://www.dominicselwood.com/the-knights-templars-2-sergeants-chaplains-women-affiliates/

The crucifix (not cross) on the wall at Domme is clearly Jesus on the cross and the wall is covered with symbols relating to the crucifixion (the Templar crosses (crosses with crossbars on the arms) set in a triangle shape is a symbol for the pile of dirt where the cross was planted and the cross itself (and it looks just like the stands on which the cross is presented in many modern churches.)

figure-domme.jpg

the Templars were far more receptive to new Middle Eastern Ideas and methods than contemporary Europe. the employed Arab scribes and were exposed to many Greek and Jewish thought including philosophy maths and banking. i think its wrong to portray them as extensions of the Catholic Church when their agenda was one of self preservation and integrating themselves not only in Europe but the Muslim world too. 

i think you place too much stock in the Templars excluding women from their presence. they were a pious, martial and religious order on face value, first and foremost in a masculine world. it just wouldn't convince anyone of their narrative if they openly fraternised with women. i find it hard to believe that if they had the ability to learn and respect their Muslim enemies that they thought so little of the opposite sex. 

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@Kenemet the multifaceted series of crosses carved on the far right hand side was described as the Jewish Tree of Life by the Lagina's. these were carved in a holding cell where the captured Templars were being held before their deaths. strange that members of a Catholic martial order would think so highly of Jewish mysticism just before being executed.  

Edited by Captain Risky
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12 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

@Kenemet the multifaceted series of crosses carved on the far right hand side was described as the Jewish Tree of Life by the Lagina's. these were carved in a holding cell where the captured Templars were being held before their deaths. strange that members of a Catholic martial order would think so highly of Jewish mysticism just before being executed.  

Given that they don't know the difference between a crucifix and a cross, I'm dubious of their identification.  Furthermore, the Kaballa tradition didn't begin until after the order of the Templars was established (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah#Origins)

And secondly, none of the graffiti is dated.  That could have been done 100 years after the last Templar or 100 years before or even as recently as 100 years ago.  And anyway, it's got the wrong number of nodes.

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12 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

the Templars were far more receptive to new Middle Eastern Ideas and methods than contemporary Europe. the employed Arab scribes and were exposed to many Greek and Jewish thought including philosophy maths and banking. i think its wrong to portray them as extensions of the Catholic Church when their agenda was one of self preservation and integrating themselves not only in Europe but the Muslim world too. 

i think you place too much stock in the Templars excluding women from their presence. they were a pious, martial and religious order on face value, first and foremost in a masculine world. it just wouldn't convince anyone of their narrative if they openly fraternised with women. i find it hard to believe that if they had the ability to learn and respect their Muslim enemies that they thought so little of the opposite sex. 

Actually, the avoidance of women is in the rules of their order (in the charter.)  They had a very rigid schedule that involved a lot of prayer and fighting practice and not much time for anything else.

Warriors of one culture often respect warriors of other cultures.  However, this does not mean that they accept that culture or embrace it in any way.

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1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Actually, the avoidance of women is in the rules of their order (in the charter.)  They had a very rigid schedule that involved a lot of prayer and fighting practice and not much time for anything else.

Warriors of one culture often respect warriors of other cultures.  However, this does not mean that they accept that culture or embrace it in any way.

well the current church also has rules against women and we all know how well thats being enforced and i suspect the same was the case for the templars.  But i thing the Templars might have started off as warriors in the holy land but they became something else, something that transcended borders and church rules. 

And yet at Mühlen in Austria we find a Templar nunnery, and officially labelled as such. And in the cartularies of the Templar houses there are many, many records of female members of the order, at least at the associate level of Consoror or Donat (lay sisters or women tied to the order through donations). This in itself is interesting enough to consider as the heart of a novel, but in further investigation into the role of woman in the military orders, I found my two figures, and their existence simply flabbergasted me.

http://www.historiamag.com/women-of-the-knights-templar/

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3 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

well the current church also has rules against women and we all know how well thats being enforced and i suspect the same was the case for the templars.  But i thing the Templars might have started off as warriors in the holy land but they became something else, something that transcended borders and church rules. 

And yet at Mühlen in Austria we find a Templar nunnery, and officially labelled as such. And in the cartularies of the Templar houses there are many, many records of female members of the order, at least at the associate level of Consoror or Donat (lay sisters or women tied to the order through donations). This in itself is interesting enough to consider as the heart of a novel, but in further investigation into the role of woman in the military orders, I found my two figures, and their existence simply flabbergasted me.

http://www.historiamag.com/women-of-the-knights-templar/

Yup.  Notice that the nunnery was in the early years, however.  And the association of women through donations is indeed something I've known about.  They were glad to take their money... but that didn't translate into relaxing of rules for them.  They also escorted women on pilgrimages ... safely and without incident.  And many Templars were married before entering the order and some kept in contact with their families.

But.

The rules of the order forbade contact.  And as a rule, they were more involved with keeping the hours of a monastery and fighting -- maintaining the elements of a group of fighting monks -- than they were in getting to know other cultures or adopting "foreign" ways.

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1 minute ago, Kenemet said:

Yup.  Notice that the nunnery was in the early years, however.  And the association of women through donations is indeed something I've known about.  They were glad to take their money... but that didn't translate into relaxing of rules for them.  They also escorted women on pilgrimages ... safely and without incident.  And many Templars were married before entering the order and some kept in contact with their families.

But.

The rules of the order forbade contact.  And as a rule, they were more involved with keeping the hours of a monastery and fighting -- maintaining the elements of a group of fighting monks -- than they were in getting to know other cultures or adopting "foreign" ways.

i agree with what you're saying. but they were more a corporation than a fighting arm of the church a time went on. thats my point.

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I believe last Tuesdays episode was a waste of 65 minutes.

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37 minutes ago, odiesbsc said:

I believe last Tuesdays episode was a waste of 65 minutes.

Not if they made some investment money back   teheehhe

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On 4/24/2019 at 8:11 PM, Kenemet said:

And secondly, none of the graffiti is dated.  That could have been done 100 years after the last Templar or 100 years before or even as recently as 100 years ago. 

They know exactly when the graffiti was carved on the walls.

"In 1307, the Knight Templars were imprisoned in Domme during the trial against them, of which hundreds of Templar graffiti still bear witness. They used a code system involving series of geometric figures: the octagon represented the Grail, the triangle surmounted by a cross represented Golgatha, the square represented the Temple, and the circle represented the imprisonment. "

There are also dates:

Destructor Templi Clemens V. MCCCXII
Destroyer of the Temple, Clement V. 1312.

The year, given in the graffiti, is the date when the Order of the Knights Templar was officially dissolved by the decrees of Pope Clement V. The papal bulls acknowledged the absence of sufficient evidence to condemn the Knights Templar, so the Order was disbanded on the grounds that its reputation had been damaged irreparably. It has been established that even many cardinals of the Church were unhappy with this decision. The graffiti (there are similar ones found at Domme) shows a very distinct attitude towards Clemens V. 

destructor-templi-clemens-v-11.jpg

During the trials of the Knights Templar, Domme was among the places where members of the Order were imprisoned. The style of the letters used in the inscription generally matches known examples from the 13-14th centuries. In my opinion, the phrase itself indicates that the inscription was made before the death of Clement V (which is corroborated by the date, 1312). It seems that after 1314 there would have been vengeful references to divine judgment against the Pope. Therefore, it is very likely that the inscription was actually made by a Templar in 1312.

Edited by skliss
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The Season Finale aired last night.  The excavations in Smith's Cove are intriguing.  The discussions on the show last night focused on whether the finds are from deposits or withdrawals.  I don't see a clear link yet to treasure as opposed to some other type of activity in the cove such as a dry dock.  And, it seems difficult to say the finds are not from previous searchers (but dendrochronology testing results say the slipway was made of red spruce dating to 1771).  Hopefully the next season will materialize and they will develop a good narrative for this part of the Island.  So, I am keeping my fanboy status for now :P 

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34 minutes ago, Megaro said:

The Season Finale aired last night.  The excavations in Smith's Cove are intriguing.  The discussions on the show last night focused on whether the finds are from deposits or withdrawals.  I don't see a clear link yet to treasure as opposed to some other type of activity in the cove such as a dry dock.  And, it seems difficult to say the finds are not from previous searchers (but dendrochronology testing results say the slipway was made of red spruce dating to 1771).  Hopefully the next season will materialize and they will develop a good narrative for this part of the Island.  So, I am keeping my fanboy status for now :P 

Thanks for the update.   I may watch it tonight.   

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1 hour ago, Megaro said:

The Season Finale aired last night.  The excavations in Smith's Cove are intriguing.  The discussions on the show last night focused on whether the finds are from deposits or withdrawals.  I don't see a clear link yet to treasure as opposed to some other type of activity in the cove such as a dry dock.  And, it seems difficult to say the finds are not from previous searchers (but dendrochronology testing results say the slipway was made of red spruce dating to 1771).  Hopefully the next season will materialize and they will develop a good narrative for this part of the Island.  So, I am keeping my fanboy status for now :P 

Just finished watching it. I believe they were dated to 1769....a good 25 to 30 years before the money pit was discovered.  It's obvious something happened there...what it was is still a mystery. 

Anyone watching The Curse of Civil War Gold? I'm a sucker for these Treasure hunting shows. 

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  • 4 months later...

Looks like Dorian might clip Nova Scotia.  I wonder what finds that may endanger?  Smith's Cove?  The swamp?  Season seven is supposed to start in November.

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The myth surrounding the Island is very interesting, an it is interesting that artifacts that vary through time are found, though the Television show about Oak Island , after the first season i got bored with it, it became a wash, rinse , repeat epsiode time an again.    I do not think that there is ever going to be a solid answer to the Island, nor do I think there is going to ever be found some giant treasure or secret .   It just appears to be a mish mash of things happening, with no logic or reason behind it, and if there was ever any, it is long forgotten/ also, for the treasure hunt aspect of the show i wonder how much that is found has been planted there just for entertainment purposes. 

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I don't know, GLC. It sure is the case that some intelligent people constructed all of this and invested a lot of time money and energy to do it, and it was done a long time ago when only intelligent, travelled people knew the benefits of coconut fiber and could get access to it. Rich and intelligent and had a hoard of workers under them.

Usually people do things like give up money and many years of their life for a darn good reason.

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1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I don't know, GLC. It sure is the case that some intelligent people constructed all of this and invested a lot of time money and energy to do it, and it was done a long time ago when only intelligent, travelled people knew the benefits of coconut fiber and could get access to it. Rich and intelligent and had a hoard of workers under them.

Usually people do things like give up money and many years of their life for a darn good reason.

Factors to consider:

1) There is actually very little credible documentation for the various purported "constructions". One would not wish to confuse sensationalistic and dated "reports" with actual research, nor confuse such reports with the actual geomorphology and hydrology of the landform.

2) You may wish to study the 16th century to 19th century history of the utilization of coconut fiber.

.

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16 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I don't know, GLC. It sure is the case that some intelligent people constructed all of this and invested a lot of time money and energy to do it, and it was done a long time ago when only intelligent, travelled people knew the benefits of coconut fiber and could get access to it. Rich and intelligent and had a hoard of workers under them.

Usually people do things like give up money and many years of their life for a darn good reason.

Adding to what Swede said, the island was both farmed and homesteaded, which can make a real mess of data.  You're looking at an area where trash was thrown in wells, were erosion (and deposition) took place, at a shoreline that's been affected by construction and by nature, full of pits that have been dug and filled by amateurs who probably didn't professionally sift the dirt and may not have returned the original dirt to the hole after they decided to leave it.

That's how you get human bone scraps from the 1600's appearing at a depth of over 5 feet.

It's an extremely disturbed and compromised site.

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1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Adding to what Swede said, the island was both farmed and homesteaded, which can make a real mess of data.  You're looking at an area where trash was thrown in wells, were erosion (and deposition) took place, at a shoreline that's been affected by construction and by nature, full of pits that have been dug and filled by amateurs who probably didn't professionally sift the dirt and may not have returned the original dirt to the hole after they decided to leave it.

That's how you get human bone scraps from the 1600's appearing at a depth of over 5 feet.

It's an extremely disturbed and compromised site.

I understand, Kenemet but you and @Swede are making it look like nothing at all happened there when the evidence is contrary to that.

The tunnels seem to be extensive enough to say that much labor had to be involved over years. Also, there is a pic of the rune stone that was found. In all, I see this as some kind of great human effort by smart and wealthy people with a large (local?) labor force. Why is this all put aside simply because archeologists did not "properly" uncover it especially when artifacts found prove to be centuries old?

But my thrust is, with this amount of design, effort and expense involved, there had to be a purpose to it. That's all. It's not kids pranking.

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5 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I understand, Kenemet but you and @Swede are making it look like nothing at all happened there when the evidence is contrary to that.

The tunnels seem to be extensive enough to say that much labor had to be involved over years. Also, there is a pic of the rune stone that was found. In all, I see this as some kind of great human effort by smart and wealthy people with a large (local?) labor force. Why is this all put aside simply because archeologists did not "properly" uncover it especially when artifacts found prove to be centuries old?

But my thrust is, with this amount of design, effort and expense involved, there had to be a purpose to it. That's all. It's not kids pranking.

I believe that both of us think that a lot happened on the island... but we also believe that the story that Rick and company are creating is based on bad information, hasty conclusions, and a lot of assumptions leading to worse assumptions.  The "runestone" doesn't actually match any known system of writing, though it does match quarry marks (see big discussion on Reddit) 

 

I think that it started out as kids pranking but it was taken seriously by people who didn't want to be wrong and who have then used everything that they think significant (large rocks, for instance) to create a narrative that simply is untrue.

 

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5 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I understand, Kenemet but you and @Swede are making it look like nothing at all happened there when the evidence is contrary to that.

The tunnels seem to be extensive enough to say that much labor had to be involved over years. Also, there is a pic of the rune stone that was found. In all, I see this as some kind of great human effort by smart and wealthy people with a large (local?) labor force. Why is this all put aside simply because archeologists did not "properly" uncover it especially when artifacts found prove to be centuries old?

But my thrust is, with this amount of design, effort and expense involved, there had to be a purpose to it. That's all. It's not kids pranking.

As Kenemet has already mentioned, the "site area" has been the subject of two centuries of primarily domestic and amateur disturbance. While your allusion to "tunnels" does not include any specific references or documentation, it should be remembered that various timbered tunnels were constructed by the Oak Island Association (1861-1864), the Halifax Company (1866-1867), and the Oak Island Treasure Company (1897).

To elaborate upon the previously mentioned geomorphology and hydrology:

The upper 160' of the subject area is composed of glacial till (technically a number of drumlins). The permeability of glacial till can vary, with some forms of till being quite permeable. Underlying the glacial till is a layer of fractured anhydrite followed by intact anhydrite bedrock.

In 1995, the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute utilized bore holes placed at selected locations to measure the groundwater response of the "site area" to tidal pulses. In most cases, a direct correlation was observed. The one case that did not indicate a correlation may presumably be due to a clay pocket that was part of the glacial deposition.

Always bear in mind that we are discussing a small area of a small island that has experienced significant reworking.

.

.

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46 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Ok, @Kenemet and @Swede  you convinced me, Nothing ever happened!  As usual. :whistle:

We're saying that things happen.  But  that they've been misinterpreted and the "evidence" is misinformed and prejudiced by agendas and assumptions.

If someone comes in and says "I've got a Knights Templar cave on my property" and you get enthusiasts to come dig and find evidence, they're going to label everything they suspect as a Knights Templar object, even if the site was one where the KT never visited and would have had no reason to visit.

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