The Curse of Oak Island

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Windowpane said:

More on Henry Sinclair ...

(And more still ... )

Thanks !!! I couldn't find Jason's link! 

[RavenHawk]

6 minutes ago, Piney said:

The whole Henry Sinclair's Journey theory can be easily debunked with a little historical research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_Sinclair,_Earl_of_Orkney

 

 

Yes, I am aware of this entry.  I’ve gone over it many times in the past.  That is hardly a source to debunk this. 

 

Now just skimming that last section “Criticisms of this theory”, it talks about there being no documented proof.  That in itself is not debunked evidence.  The Library of Alexander was destroyed and we have no documented evidence of what was lost.  The majority of Mayan texts were destroyed and we have no documented evidence of the fullness of their culture.  Things get lost or destroyed for any number of reasons.  Doesn’t mean it never happened (doesn’t mean it did either).  But to ignore it is a crime against humanity (as those two acts were).  The documents could have been purposely destroyed to protect Templar lands and their treasure.  And that the carvings in Rosslyn Chapel are indeed of New World plants and that records the document?  Art back then was more than just a picture.  Each piece told a story.  Documentation could have found its way into the Cremona Document (yes, I know the criticisms of that document.  That could be its own thread).  There are just as many holes in the criticism as the criticism makes of the document. 

 

And then the other part of that section states that both Henry and William testified against the Templars.  Mind you that Henry I was not born at that time.  He was born in 1345.  William could have been Henry’s father but that would not necessarily mean that William was not a Templar either.  But the trial and execution of these Templars put a nail in the roomers by publicly ending the Order for centuries.  They willingly sacrificed themselves so that the Order would go on in secret.  The rest of the order simply disappeared into European culture.  They knew the price they were paying and the secret they were keeping.

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, Myles said:

Studying, researching and debunking the history of a certain race is not racism at all.  

It can be.  I would suggest you examine that assertion.  We are so steeped in the assumption that the white race has always been the central player in world history that we have problems sharing the stage with anybody else.

That view was certainly foundational during the era of adventure, colonization, and exploration.  It was in full flower during the Victorian era and was woven into some of their popular gentlemanly inquiries into nature and man. It remains with us still.

A massive stone enclosure in Zimbabwe Africa?  Blacks couldn't have built that, must have been a lost tribe of Israel.

Massive stone walls in Peru or cities in the jungles of Yucatan?  Indians couldn't have done that must have been Phoenicians or a lost tribe of Israel.  These days  of course, it has to be aliens that did it, because Indians couldn't have possibly had a culture that sophisticated  before we showed them how.  Same goes for the mounds of the South and the Mississippi valley and its tributaries.  Must have been giants or that lost tribe of Israel again.

The inheritors of those Victorian gentleman scholars  are with us today, long on conjecture and short of facts.  The list is huge, with Hancock and von Daniken maybe not even at the top.  They are still trying to fit the world into the beliefs in their heads.

Rewriting history is not a new goal, we have been doing it for generations to fit our needs.  Most of the time it has not even required evidence.

Now as in Victorian times there have been scholars who have put in the work to understand what the evidence tells them.   I counter that to armchair gentleman scholars who try to string a few facts onto the thread of their conjecture and discard the ones that don't fit.  They are still in abundance too, because mythology and stories that reinforce what we already believe sell.

Discovering the facts whether they conform to what we want to believe or not  is eminently worth doing.

 

 

[RavenHawk]

1 hour ago, Windowpane said:

More on Henry Sinclair ...

(And more still ... )

I’ve read other stuff by him.  Colavito hardly provides objective criticism.

[Piney]

30 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Yes, I am aware of this entry.  I’ve gone over it many times in the past.  That is hardly a source to debunk this. 

Windowpane posted the actual link I was looking for, but it comes down to there is no evidence of the Templars in North America. Plenty for Basque fishermen and smugglers, which happened to be a "unknown" up until we started finding evidence in the late 90s.

Here's the links

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/prince-henry-sinclair.html

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/the-templars-the-holy-grail--henry-sinclair.html

@Myles  Here's Jason's blog on the racism of alt. archaeology

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/alternative-archaeology-and-ethnic-pride

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/fringe-historys-frank-joseph-problem

and more articles on it.

https://hyperallergic.com/470795/pseudoarchaeology-and-the-racism-behind-ancient-aliens/

SPLC article.

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/01/02/close-encounters-racist-kind

[RavenHawk]

10 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

It can be.  I would suggest you examine that assertion.  We are so steeped in the assumption that the white race has always been the central player in world history that we have problems sharing the stage with anybody else.

Acknowledging the fact that it is the White race that has achieved the pinnacle for the moment is not racist.  We are not so steeped in the assumption that the White race has always been the central player.  Since the Industrial Revolution, I would say yes.  In a thousand years, some other race will seize the top.  In your examples, the massive stone enclosure in Zimbabwe was not built by current day Africans.  Those are ultimately far different peoples.  The Incan structures were not built by today’s Peruvian people.  And so forth.  Those cultures have died off and the remnants are just different peoples.  Their fire has gone out.  They were not a lost tribe of Israel.  Israeli stone masons were pretty average.  Israel usually hired out to build stone structures.  Those that built these structures (in your examples) were far more advanced but when they declined, that knowledge waned.  When Western Civilization falls, our knowledge will become lost.  But I don’t see any new up and coming races.  All have already bloomed and withered.  We have pretty much reached maximum Entropy as a species.  The White race still has hundreds if not thousands of years yet to go, but it too will end.

[Saru]

Thread cleaned

Back on topic please i.e. "The Curse of Oak Island".

 

[Piney]

45 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

And that the carvings in Rosslyn Chapel are indeed of New World plants and that records the document? 

I agree with Dr. Dyer and Dr. Moffat. 

Quote

Broadly speaking, Dr Dyer found the botanical forms in the Chapel to be stylised or conventionalised, not meant to be identifiable plants, with one exception. Hart's-tongue fern, an ancient fronded plant, was growing in Roslin Glen in the fourteenth century and is still found today under Rosslyn Castle. It can be seen, approximately life-size, carved on the Apprentice Pillar.

This idea does not bear scrutiny. Dr Dyer found that there was no attempt to represent a species accurately: the 'maize' and 'aloe' carvings are almost certainly derived from stylized wooden patterns, whose resemblance to recognisable botanical forms is fortuitous.

Much the same conclusion was reached by archaeo-botanist Dr Brian Moffat, who also noted that the carvings of botanical forms are not naturalistic nor accurate. He found a highly stylised Arum Lily the most likely candidate for what has been identified as American maize.

As for the 'aloes', Dr Moffat points out that the consumer would never have seen the plant, only the sap which was used medicinally. There is no citation of either 'maize' or 'aloe' in the Oxford English Dictionary before the mid-sixteenth century; aloe was not imported to Spain until 1561. Moffat adds that "In common with the majority of Rosslyn's foliage, little life is on display and precious little nature."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/places/rosslynchapel_1.shtml

[Kenemet]

On 3/6/2020 at 12:27 PM, Tatetopa said:

I have been watching Time Team on a BBC feed, Acorn I think.  Until you mentioned it, I did not know there was a Time Team America.  Thanks, I will look for it.  Have you become the Olwyn Owen of Texas archaeology?

I don't think so.  We haven't looked at Time Team America yet.  Still working through BBC.

[Kenemet]

On 3/4/2020 at 10:31 PM, RavenHawk said:

That is very possible but I don’t think that means anything if there were more people.  But the Miꞌkmaq flag poses a problem there.  It is almost identical to the Templar battle flag. 

 

Mi'kmaq flag ... which was first raised in 1900: http://www.danielnpaul.com/Mi'kmaqFlags.html

 

Knights Templar battle flag

 

Frankly, I don't see a lot of similarities.

 

[Windowpane]

3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

... The Library of Alexander was destroyed and we have no documented evidence of what was lost ...

The Library/ies of Alexandria have been discussed here before ...

(It appears that some ancient texts did manage to survive, although not because they were stored in great libraries, but simply because they were continually copied and recopied by scribes.)

[Swede]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:49 PM, RavenHawk said:

Uhm, no.  No doubt that the Bruce defeating Longshanks allowed Scotland to be one possible location of the Templar treasure.  I don’t think Oak Island was even in the planning stages yet.  But I do think that at least a portion of the Templar treasure was in the New World (along the coast).

Pardon the condensation of your various "arguments", but one may wish to be a bit cautious when making such pronouncements. First, one must consider timelines. One must then consider the cultural and technological elements involved.

To be somewhat more succinct, it would appear that you are basing your position on pulp fiction and such demonstrable frauds as Wolters.

The above can then be compared and contrasted to the known, and extensive, presence of Amerindians and the documentation supporting the presence of the Basques at least as early as 1517.

In summary, your "argument" lacks credible substantiation where, in contrast, there are numerous evidences of more prosaic explanations than the silly Knights Templar "hypothesis".

But do feel free to provide credible data to support your position.

.

[Myles]

So last nights episode had them using a bigger oscillating machine to dig deep.   I still find the show interesting, but not sure still that there is anything there.   

There has yet to be any proof that something was buried and booby-trapped there.   Lots of possible evidence, but everything found has an alternative reasonable explanation.  

[Trelane]

*In the show's narrator voice* "Another season? By Smith's Cove?  Rick, Marty and the Oak Island team think its possible"

They have done a masterful job at dragging this thing on. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Trelane

[Myles]

4 minutes ago, Trelane said:

*In the show's narrator voice* "Another season? By Smith's Cove?  Rick, Marty and the Oak Island team think its possible"

They have done a masterful job and dragging this thing on. 

I tend to agree.   Since they are an entertainment show, they can fib anything they want.   The so called "experts" could be paid to say false information.  

[Passing through]

Think if they were serious about finding anything then they'd have brought the Goonies in and that is mystery over.

But really, this show is very frustrating to watch for someone who's had a longstanding interest in the mystery, the show itself has been the Lagina's  treasure, its just been milked for all its worth with little to show for the amount of years they have been there, i think Rick in particular has seen his wealth rise considerably due to the show. 

Falling numbers of people watching will force History Channels hand and i can see it being cancelled which is a shame when i believe there is more to the story that should be told but entertainment takes priority over answers these days, talk of them now doing a massive dig just won't happen, far to much work and expense for no guarantees.

Doesn't help when they keep peddling this idea of a galleon under the swamp, you'd ground one of those long before it got near those islands, but hey anything to jazz it up a bit, the real treasure would be a definitive who and why for me but very unlikely we'll get those answers.

 

[Myles]

2 hours ago, Passing through said:

 

Falling numbers of people watching will force History Channels hand and i can see it being cancelled which is a shame when i believe there is more to the story that should be told but entertainment takes priority over answers these days, talk of them now doing a massive dig just won't happen, far to much work and expense for no guarantees.

 

 

I think the ratings are still good enough to keep it going.   

It is pretty obvious that they are dragging it out.   They jump all over the island.   

 

[atalante]

4 hours ago, Myles said:

I think the ratings are still good enough to keep it going.   

It is pretty obvious that they are dragging it out.   They jump all over the island.   

 

Yes, the ratings for Curse of Oak Island are declining very slowly, but still good.

 https://www.ratingraph.com/tv-shows/the-curse-of-oak-island-ratings-50891/

[Unusual Tournament]

On 5/22/2020 at 2:17 AM, atalante said:

Yes, the ratings for Curse of Oak Island are declining very slowly, but still good.

 https://www.ratingraph.com/tv-shows/the-curse-of-oak-island-ratings-50891/

Its been a real blast but Id really hate for this show to go out a ratings loser. Best they quit digging holes while they're still on top. 

[Myles]

On 5/31/2020 at 7:24 AM, Captain Risky said:

Its been a real blast but Id really hate for this show to go out a ratings loser. Best they quit digging holes while they're still on top. 

Does that mean you don't feel there is anything big to find or solve?

[Unusual Tournament]

3 hours ago, Myles said:

Does that mean you don't feel there is anything big to find or solve?

Look I feel it was a way station for many over the centuries. Whalers, fisherman maybe even traders and smugglers. Would I bury a treasure 100-200 meters on a small island where salt water moves through the bed rock, well no. I’d put it in a cave, nice and dry and easy to access. Nah there’s nothing there.

[Myles]

13 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Look I feel it was a way station for many over the centuries. Whalers, fisherman maybe even traders and smugglers. Would I bury a treasure 100-200 meters on a small island where salt water moves through the bed rock, well no. I’d put it in a cave, nice and dry and easy to access. Nah there’s nothing there.

I pretty much feel the same.    I was just curious if your were a believer in there being a treasure there, it would have been odd if the shows ratings would have wanted you to hope they quit searching.  

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Myles said:

I pretty much feel the same.    I was just curious if your were a believer in there being a treasure there, it would have been odd if the shows ratings would have wanted you to hope they quit searching.  

Don’t know about you but Seeking treasure to me is fun enough. Doing it with mates even better. Making money at the same time well who needs the treasure right. They made their money with TV rights and all and had an adventure along the way. I just don’t want them spoiling it for the next guys. Leave the mystery turn the island into a museum and give some else a fair go. 

[Myles]

20 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Don’t know about you but Seeking treasure to me is fun enough. Doing it with mates even better. Making money at the same time well who needs the treasure right. They made their money with TV rights and all and had an adventure along the way. I just don’t want them spoiling it for the next guys. Leave the mystery turn the island into a museum and give some else a fair go. 

It seems to me that they may have already ruined it for the next folks.   With all the digging of holes and moving of Earth, it may make it tough for anyone else.   Of course you hope they have documented everything extremely well.  

It seems to me that much of the search has been purposely slowed down to extend the show, so I'm not sure they are really trying.  Whenever I see the metal detecting guy doing his thing, I wonder why they didn't invite a local metal detecting club to come over and they could cover 10X as much ground.  

[Unusual Tournament]

4 minutes ago, Myles said:

It seems to me that they may have already ruined it for the next folks.   With all the digging of holes and moving of Earth, it may make it tough for anyone else.   Of course you hope they have documented everything extremely well.  

It seems to me that much of the search has been purposely slowed down to extend the show, so I'm not sure they are really trying.  Whenever I see the metal detecting guy doing his thing, I wonder why they didn't invite a local metal detecting club to come over and they could cover 10X as much ground.  

Yes I never thought of more metal detectorists. By far he’s made the best finds.