Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[+and-then]

http://www.voanews.com/content/ukraine-pm-warns-of-use-of-force-against-protesters/1834483.html

Perhaps I do not understand what is happening here but I think the Ukranians are protesting against a turn back toward a Russian influence in their country. Perhaps Kaa-Tzik can you explain this from his perspective? If the people of Ukraine are against such a realignment in a majority would Russia send in troops to enforce/preserve it?

[Eldorado]

Like the US invading Canada. For real. How do you think Canadians would respond?

[RedSquirrel]

Like the US invading Canada. For real. How do you think Canadians would respond?

They'd be terribly polite about it.

[Eldorado]

They'd be terribly polite about it.

lol OK, scrub that. How about Mexico? Erm... scrub that too. From what I read Mexico has already invaded the US!

Edited January 21, 2014 by Eldorado

[The Silver Thong]

Like the US invading Canada. For real. How do you think Canadians would respond?

Do you know how many angry letters the US would receive. Canadians are famous for there angry letters I tell ya lol

[Kaa-Tzik]

The goverment, and particulary Segei Lavrov, have stated clearly that a break up of Ukraine is not wanted, and Russia has not once even slightly suggested any territorial interest in Ukraine. I could write a wall of text about this, but it isn't needed for what happens in Kiev speaks for itself. However, a few questions that people should ask is, why all this violence, why these demonstrations since last year about Viktor Yanukovich postponing signing an agreement with the EU. That's right, a postponent, not an outright rejection. Yet it is made out to be, by western media and politicians, a rejection of an invite to join the EU as voted for by a majority of Ukranians. This is complete fantasy, total lies. Why, when looking at the reality, should anybody be so upset about this postponent as to demonstrate, and now riot, for week after week?. Why is it reported in western media that it is okay for western politicians to go to Ukraine and call for government to be overturned? Should Sergei Lavrov go to Washington and call for the same in America? what would happen if he did? how would it be reported I wonder.... Would any country allow this level of disruption in it's capital to continue for so long? I doubt it. Would riots this serious be allowed to happen in any American city without National Guard beeing sent to restore order, by force? Two nights ago about 100 police officers were injured by the rioters, and not one live round was fired back at them. Would this level of injury against the police be accepted by any EU country or US? Yet politicains from those countries still call for what is essentially revolution in Ukraine. Is there any reason now for Ukraine not to declare war on those countries? would America allow such riots to be supported by a foreign power and do nothing? If reptiles like McCain and Haig continue to call for the overthrow of democratically elected government in a major European country, then they should be arrested and imprissoned for life. Do these intellectual and moral pygmies want WWIII?, because what they vomit suggests that they do. Who benefits from these riots? the ordinary people of Ukraine do not. Russia is not about to invade Ukraine, but if this odd mix of EU, US and local fascist terrorists cause a civil war, then what happens? then who is to blame for what happens?

[Eldorado]

Maybe people are rioting because they have had enough BS from politicians. When you are governed by self-serving liars, what else is an ordinary person to do? Write an angry letter to the liars?

[Kaa-Tzik]

http://www.voanews.c...rs/1834483.html

Perhaps I do not understand what is happening here but I think the Ukranians are protesting against a turn back toward a Russian influence in their country. Perhaps Kaa-Tzik can you explain this from his perspective? If the people of Ukraine are against such a realignment in a majority would Russia send in troops to enforce/preserve it?

I made a longer post, but to answer your specific question. Most Ukranians do not have issues between Ukranian and Russian speakers. But, a very vociferous group of anti Russian nationalists, and outright fascists from the western regions have descended on Kiev and caused these problems. They are supported by Klitschko, who now is close to becoming a traitor, and EU and US politicians. These people have attracted a lot of attention, and have been treated with essentially kid gloves by a government scared of EU and US reaction if they deal with this situation as any EU country or the US would in the circumstances. These rioters are not speaking for any majority of Ukranians, yet the western media gives them a voice out of proportion to their support. This has gone beyond any synthetic anger about not signing a trade agreement with EU, it is now clearly an attempt at overthrow of government. This is not wanted by any majority, normal elections in due course yes, but not this nonsense in Kiev. There would only be a cause for alarm if there was seen to be problems in other cities or within the armed forces, and there is nothing, not even rumours of rumours. It would be intersting to see if Yanukovich said to the western regions, behave or go, as the rest of Ukraine can manage without you, most industry is in the Russian speaking regions. This will not happen though.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Maybe people are rioting because they have had enough BS from politicians. When you are governed by self-serving liars, what else is an ordinary person to do? Write an angry letter to the liars?

The rioters are not fed up with politicians, they are being fed by them, and the politicians doing the feeding are not Ukranian, apart from the reptile Klitschko. They are not "ordinary" Ukranians, they are not "the people" wanting their voice heard, for if it were, then where are the people from the eastern and southern regions? why are the rioters from mostly the further western regions, not even Kiev itself. Western media is either not capable of telling these differences, or not willing to.....

Edited January 22, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[+and-then]

They'd be terribly polite about it.

I love our neighbors to the north but if they had a bunch of Americans trying to tell them what to do I suspect they would drop the gentle airs...and the'd be RIGHT!

[+and-then]

The goverment, and particulary Segei Lavrov, have stated clearly that a break up of Ukraine is not wanted, and Russia has not once even slightly suggested any territorial interest in Ukraine. I could write a wall of text about this, but it isn't needed for what happens in Kiev speaks for itself. However, a few questions that people should ask is, why all this violence, why these demonstrations since last year about Viktor Yanukovich postponing signing an agreement with the EU. That's right, a postponent, not an outright rejection. Yet it is made out to be, by western media and politicians, a rejection of an invite to join the EU as voted for by a majority of Ukranians. This is complete fantasy, total lies. Why, when looking at the reality, should anybody be so upset about this postponent as to demonstrate, and now riot, for week after week?. Why is it reported in western media that it is okay for western politicians to go to Ukraine and call for government to be overturned? Should Sergei Lavrov go to Washington and call for the same in America? what would happen if he did? how would it be reported I wonder.... Would any country allow this level of disruption in it's capital to continue for so long? I doubt it. Would riots this serious be allowed to happen in any American city without National Guard beeing sent to restore order, by force? Two nights ago about 100 police officers were injured by the rioters, and not one live round was fired back at them. Would this level of injury against the police be accepted by any EU country or US? Yet politicains from those countries still call for what is essentially revolution in Ukraine. Is there any reason now for Ukraine not to declare war on those countries? would America allow such riots to be supported by a foreign power and do nothing? If reptiles like McCain and Haig continue to call for the overthrow of democratically elected government in a major European country, then they should be arrested and imprissoned for life. Do these intellectual and moral pygmies want WWIII?, because what they vomit suggests that they do. Who benefits from these riots? the ordinary people of Ukraine do not. Russia is not about to invade Ukraine, but if this odd mix of EU, US and local fascist terrorists cause a civil war, then what happens? then who is to blame for what happens?

You are correct in that it certainly is not portrayed this way in the US. Our news is that it is solely about a Putin friend going against the will of the majority to engage in closer ties with Russia despite public sentiment for joining the EU. If your assessment is accurate then I would expect the government of Russia to just watch as this thing truly engulfs the country and the will of the people is shown. Another civil war is NOT what the world needs just now but Von Clauswitz nailed it so long ago... wars breed a "contagion of violence".

[stevewinn]

Matters where not helped when the EU flew in Cathy Aston the EU foreign affairs minister to walk amongst the protesters. but then the Germans and US flew in their people. Foreign minister Frank Walter Steinmeier, and US diplomat whose name i cannot remember.

[Helen of Annoy]

The rioters are not fed up with politicians, they are being fed by them, and the politicians doing the feeding are not Ukranian, apart from the reptile Klitschko. They are not "ordinary" Ukranians, they are not "the people" wanting their voice heard, for if it were, then where are the people from the eastern and southern regions? why are the rioters from mostly the further western regions, not even Kiev itself. Western media is either not capable of telling these differences, or not willing to.....

“Reptile” Klitschko does everything humanly and inhumanly possible to convince angry people to stay as calm as possible and not turn violent.

He personally, physically stood between the protestors and the police, demanding they calm down and no blood is shed.

You may think of him as political opponent, fine, but it takes some serious balls to stand alone in between two groups of p***ed off people.

“Ukrainian” Ukrainians, as opposed to pro-Russian “Russian” Ukrainians, have reported the provocateurs are constantly sent among peaceful protestors. Their goal is to turn protests violent, so that pro-Russian current Ukrainian government can declare state of emergency and crush protests by open, unrestricted police and military force.

No one sane should want that to happen, because it would destroy any chance of realistic negotiations between truly independent Ukraine and Russia. At this moment, with this government, Ukraine is not truly independent.

One bizarre detail - some protestors received messages on their mobile phones from their service providers, reading: “Dear client, you’ve been listed as participant in mass disturbance of public order.”

Who’s reptile there?

Kaa-Tzik, you know by now I’m honest about the necessity of stopping any further conflict between generally said “us”. I do not expect you spit on your own head here, I just appeal you take a look at the situation from the Ukrainian point of view too. They wouldn’t be in the streets in hundreds of thousands at times if there wasn’t a damn good reason for that.

When people are speaking, only an idiot doesn’t listen.

[Kaa-Tzik]

“Reptile” Klitschko does everything humanly and inhumanly possible to convince angry people to stay as calm as possible and not turn violent.

He personally, physically stood between the protestors and the police, demanding they calm down and no blood is shed.

You may think of him as political opponent, fine, but it takes some serious balls to stand alone in between two groups of p***ed off people.

“Ukrainian” Ukrainians, as opposed to pro-Russian “Russian” Ukrainians, have reported the provocateurs are constantly sent among peaceful protestors. Their goal is to turn protests violent, so that pro-Russian current Ukrainian government can declare state of emergency and crush protests by open, unrestricted police and military force.

No one sane should want that to happen, because it would destroy any chance of realistic negotiations between truly independent Ukraine and Russia. At this moment, with this government, Ukraine is not truly independent.

One bizarre detail - some protestors received messages on their mobile phones from their service providers, reading: “Dear client, you’ve been listed as participant in mass disturbance of public order.”

Who’s reptile there?

Kaa-Tzik, you know by now I’m honest about the necessity of stopping any further conflict between generally said “us”. I do not expect you spit on your own head here, I just appeal you take a look at the situation from the Ukrainian point of view too. They wouldn’t be in the streets in hundreds of thousands at times if there wasn’t a damn good reason for that.

When people are speaking, only an idiot doesn’t listen.

It does not do any harm to Klitschko's election chances of being seen with anti government rioters, even if he pretends to calm them.... Who pays for Klitschko?, who benefits from him ever getting power?. Despite the propoganda, Yanukovich is not Putin's puppet and does not take his money. Some points I made in another post are valid and need answering. If this is a general demonstration and riot by ordinary Ukranians against the government, then were are the rioters from any regions except the far west. People in the EU, US etc simply do not know about these important points, they are not told these things, or are told distortions. People in Russia and Belarus know what is going on and who these rioters are, and don't even need to listen to what TV reporters say, because unlike western audiences we can hear what they shout, read their slogans, and perhaps more importantly, have friends and realtives in Ukraine and so know what people think without any "filter" of any media. I have said before, this is not an issue between Russian and the majority of Ukranian speakers, it is an issue forced by extreme nationalists and outright fascists and Russian haters in the western regions. We all know this, but the outside world is told lies and half truths. Clearly it is in the interests of some to cause a civil war in Ukraine to create a "final solution" to the Russian "problem", and those "some" happen to be not just fascists, but also EU and US politicians, who are condemned by their own words. They may not say "civil war", but they have called for the government to be overthrown. This could be seen as an act of war if any western politicians in their respective governments say this. UK foreign reptile minister Haig has said this, the total joke "Baroness" Ashton has said this, and she is the voice of the EU in foreign affairs. Should Lavrov stand in Zagreb, London or Washington and call for overthrow of those governments? No, of course not, it is rude, ridiculous and dangerous, yet western politicians can come to Kiev and say these things and what? everthing is okay to do that ? The people of Ukraine do not want a break up of Ukraine, Russia does not want a break up of Ukraine, and says so nearly every day. Fascists and western politicians say something different, why?........

Edited January 22, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[stevewinn]

US ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt held a meeting on Monday with Dmitri Bulatov, its believed $1million USD has been handed over to organise peaceful protests. which in the end will turn violent. i think in the coming days / weeks the EU will start to backpedal as the situation worsens.

[Kaa-Tzik]

You are correct in that it certainly is not portrayed this way in the US. Our news is that it is solely about a Putin friend going against the will of the majority to engage in closer ties with Russia despite public sentiment for joining the EU. If your assessment is accurate then I would expect the government of Russia to just watch as this thing truly engulfs the country and the will of the people is shown. Another civil war is NOT what the world needs just now but Von Clauswitz nailed it so long ago... wars breed a "contagion of violence".

America wants tank divisions based in the Donbass, it wants it's navy in Sevastopol and Odessa, it wants Ukrainian wheat, it wants to squeeze Russia tighter and tighter, and not for the benefit of ordinary Americans, but those with the $ and those who control it. Russia has one foreign military base, Tartus, and America, with it's already huge number of foreign bases, wants that. By increments WWIII progresses, but has anybody noticed.....

Edited January 22, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Sir Smoke aLot]

It does not do any harm to Klitschko's election chances of being seen with anti government rioters, even if he pretends to calm them.... Who pays for Klitschko?, who benefits from him ever getting power?. Despite the propoganda, Yanukovich is not Putin's puppet and does not take his money. Some points I made in another post are valid and need answering. If this is a general demonstration and riot by ordinary Ukranians against the government, then were are the rioters from any regions except the far west. People in the EU, US etc simply do not know about these important points, they are not told these things, or are told distortions. People in Russia and Belarus know what is going on and who these rioters are, and don't even need to listen to what TV reporters say, because unlike western audiences we can hear what they shout, read their slogans, and perhaps more importantly, have friends and realtives in Ukraine and so know what people think without any "filter" of any media. I have said before, this is not an issue between Russian and the majority of Ukranian speakers, it is an issue forced by extreme nationalists and outright fascists and Russian haters in the western regions. We all know this, but the outside world is told lies and half truths. Clearly it is in the interests of some to cause a civil war in Ukraine to create a "final solution" to the Russian "problem", and those "some" happen to be not just fascists, but also EU and US politicians, who are condemned by their own words. They may not say "civil war", but they have called for the government to be overthrown. This could be seen as an act of war if any western politicians in their respective governments say this. UK foreign reptile minister Haig has said this, the total joke "Baroness" Ashton has said this, and she is the voice of the EU in foreign affairs. Should Lavrov stand in Zagreb, London or Washington and call for overthrow of those governments? No, of course not, it is rude, ridiculous and dangerous, yet western politicians can come to Kiev and say these things and what? everthing is okay to do that ? The people of Ukraine do not want a break up of Ukraine, Russia does not want a break up of Ukraine, and says so nearly every day. Fascists and western politicians say something different, why?........

Gotta love them double standards. Some people are so arogant and seems to know better then you about how u should live your life inside your home

By this i mean that some politicians and countries just need to interfere with others internal issues. Its rude before anything else.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Something for the supporters of these fascist rioters to think about. Jews have been attacked in Kiev by these "pro EU demonstartors" rioting facists, because that is what facists do. It is remarkable that facists in EU countries are heavily monitored by the police, arrested for saying "bad" things online, and prevented from having demonstrations. Yet in Ukraine these are the "good" guys, the friends of John McCain, William Hague and the bizarre "Baroness" Ashton.

These "demonstrations" and riots are an assault on Kiev and it's population and on the majority population of Ukraine. They are inspired by EU and US politicians, who would never in their own countries would have allowed any foreign politician to say what they have, and who would never have allowed this situation to have continued for so long. After nearly two hundred police officers have been injured, four times as many as rioters, the situation becomes worse and it is reported that two people are now dead, though it is not clear in what circumstances. Had riots of this severity, and government buildings been occupied in Washington, I suspect that many rioters would have been gunned down by US security forces. And of course the entire weight of the US media thrown against rioters. And I can imagine the reaction if any politician from any other country said any words of support for the rioters. Washinton, London, Brussels, Berlin, Warsaw, nothing but stinking hypocrites, or worse........

Edited January 22, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Frank Merton]

Russia's history in Ukraine and similar places in my opinion absolutely disqualifies it from having any right to interfere or even express its opinions. It would be like Germany telling Denmark what to do.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Russia's history in Ukraine and similar places in my opinion absolutely disqualifies it from having any right to interfere or even express its opinions. It would be like Germany telling Denmark what to do.

I have to presume that you know nothing about Ukraine or Russia other than propoganda?

What Russian "history", were you clearly mean a "bad" history of course. Perhaps you mean the Holodomor, caused by political decisions of extreme stupidity by the Soviet Government, a government dominated by people who were not ethnic Russians and whose bad decisions were also responsible for the deaths of countless Russians as well as Ukranians. You say Russia should not even be able to express an opinion, really, and with millions of Ukranians being ethnic Russian, and the majority of the population of Crimea wanting to rejoin Russia. Yes, rejoin, as Crimea has never been a part of any independant Ukranian state before idiot Yeltsin failed to the reverse the internal USSR decision by the ethnic Ukranian Khrushchev, to transfer Crimea and parts of Donbass from Russian SSR administration to Ukranian SSR some decades ago. Same as what happened to Abkhazia and South Ossetia being transferred to administration of Georgian SSR, giving modern Georgia the ridiculously flimsy excuse to claim Abkhazia and South Ossetia as belonging to Georgia. But I'm sure you must know all this.......

Then there is the question of who is Ukranian and who is Russian, or both. Do you know all about this area? Are people in Sevastopol, regardless of passport, Russian or Ukranian, is the majority population of the Kuban, again regardless of passport, Russian or Ukranian, or both? As you see fit to make the comments you have, then I presume you know all these things, don't you.......

Edited January 22, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[+and-then]

I have to presume that you know nothing about Ukraine or Russia other than propoganda?

What Russian "history", were you clearly mean a "bad" history of course. Perhaps you mean the Holodomor, caused by political decisions of extreme stupidity by the Soviet Government, a government dominated by people who were not ethnic Russians and whose bad decisions were also responsible for the deaths of countless Russians as well as Ukranians. You say Russia should not even be able to express an opinion, really, and with millions of Ukranians being ethnic Russian, and the majority of the population of Crimea wanting to rejoin Russia. Yes, rejoin, as Crimea has never been a part of any independant Ukranian state before idiot Yeltsin failed to the reverse the internal USSR decision by the ethnic Ukranian Khrushchev, to transfer Crimea and parts of Donbass from Russian SSR administration to Ukranian SSR some decades ago. Same as what happened to Abkhazia and South Ossetia being transferred to administration of Georgian SSR, giving modern Georgia the ridiculously flimsy excuse to claim Abkhazia and South Ossetia as belonging to Georgia. But I'm sure you must know all this.......

Then there is the question of who is Ukranian and who is Russian, or both. Do you know all about this area? Are people in Sevastopol, regardless of passport, Russian or Ukranian, is the majority population of the Kuban, again regardless of passport, Russian or Ukranian, or both? As you see fit to make the comments you have, then I presume you know all these things, don't you.......

I make no claim of understanding the region - it's why I ask the question, but the Cold War is not so long ago that people should simply forget the things done (by both sides) in it. The people of Ukraine should be left alone to sort their differences - even if it means general bloodshed. No other country should come into the fray and "help" them decide their course -America, EU or Russia, IMO. And the country certainly shouldn't become a proxy battleground for any of the above mentioned.

[Kaa-Tzik]

I make no claim of understanding the region - it's why I ask the question, but the Cold War is not so long ago that people should simply forget the things done (by both sides) in it. The people of Ukraine should be left alone to sort their differences - even if it means general bloodshed. No other country should come into the fray and "help" them decide their course -America, EU or Russia, IMO. And the country certainly shouldn't become a proxy battleground for any of the above mentioned.

You are aware of Jews in Kiev being beaten by the rioters ? You prefer that people should stand back and let it all happened...

[+and-then]

You are aware of Jews in Kiev being beaten by the rioters ? You prefer that people should stand back and let it all happened...

No, Kaa Tzik, I don't prefer ANYONE be beaten but anti semitism is a fact of life - especially in Europe. The fact that hooligans are taking part in riots does not mean ALL the rioters are hooligans. What I want is for the will of the majority to be realized - NOT to have external pressures to force them into one sphere or the other. I realize that Vlad is a hero to you and to many in Russia. I think he is dangerous and I think that making a bogeyman out of the west is silly - NATO couldn't fight it's way into Tripoli for 6 months fgs! The US has no ambitions to rule over Russia - we just have longer memories than you give us credit for.

[Bavarian Raven]

I love our neighbors to the north but if they had a bunch of Americans trying to tell them what to do I suspect they would drop the gentle airs...and the'd be RIGHT!

This. You invade Canada and we'll give you 'nam 2.0.

Peace

[questionmark]

This. You invade Canada and we'll give you 'nam 2.0.

Peace

No worries,most had enough from the previous two times it was tried