Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[Kaa-Tzik]

There has been some disingenuous posts over a few threads to do with Russia being the "bad" guy and stealing land. These posts are made knowing that not so many people are aware of the history of the region in anything except the most general terms, and usually with a starting point of 20th century. Here is a map of territory ruled by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which existed until almost the end of 18th Century. You will see it covers much of modern Ukraine and parts of western Russia, as well as all of modern Belarus. So when I hear the bleats about, almost always Soviet, land grabs of other peoples territory, forgive me for not shedding a tear. Poland's deeply cynical actions during the Time of troubles, the capture of large areas of western Russia and the taking of Moscow are not forgotten. And let's not forget the role of Austria-Hungary in this region....

http://en.wikipedia....an_Commonwealth

Edited January 25, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

Milosevic was indeed special 'mental' case. I would not compare him to anyone else as main idea leading him was to destroy all the others and have the lands for his people.

I dont see anyone who needs to be saved but after this riots started there are victims and crimes are being commited. That is telling much. People in many other countries were doing just fine but after so called 'revolutions' started they lost so much.

You should compare Yanukovich and Milosevich and if you do, you might notice they share everything important in common.

Also, you should see Ukraine that needs to be saved from pro-Russian dictatorship that keeps population in poverty, according to new laws in information blockade too. The repression is becoming increasingly more savage and according to new laws, there will be absolutely no consequences for the policemen who do what they did and you chose to not see it.

What use will common people have from bazillions of Russian bribe? No use at all. It's for chosen suck-ups only, not for the people. Another thing people are protesting against there.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

You should compare Yanukovich and Milosevich and if you do, you might notice they share everything important in common.

Also, you should see Ukraine that needs to be saved from pro-Russian dictatorship that keeps population in poverty, according to new laws in information blockade too. The repression is becoming increasingly more savage and according to new laws, there will be absolutely no consequences for the policemen who do what they did and you chose to not see it.

What use will common people have from bazillions of Russian bribe? No use at all. It's for chosen suck-ups only, not for the people. Another thing people are protesting against there.

Corruption is problem in Ukraine but also in every country in the world. Should it be reason then welcome invade Bosnia too, clean up this deyton mess please its no good for people. I see no leader in the world interested in this subject... And no i cant compare milosevich to anyone.

[Kaa-Tzik]

You should compare Yanukovich and Milosevich and if you do, you might notice they share everything important in common.

Also, you should see Ukraine that needs to be saved from pro-Russian dictatorship that keeps population in poverty, according to new laws in information blockade too. The repression is becoming increasingly more savage and according to new laws, there will be absolutely no consequences for the policemen who do what they did and you chose to not see it.

What use will common people have from bazillions of Russian bribe? No use at all. It's for chosen suck-ups only, not for the people. Another thing people are protesting against there.

Total nonsense and you know it. There is no "dictatorship", no "repression" and people are not kept in "poverty". There certainly is corruption and incomptetence, on all sides, as nobody doubts Tymoshenko's guilt, no even her own people seriously doubt it now. Ukranians can own property and businesses, have freedom of movement within Ukraine and abroad, can publish whatever they like, within libel laws, and run radio and television stations in opposition to government. Much of what is shown happening in Kiev on western media comes from "Espreso" TV, that has added the word "Revolution" to it's name. In a dictatorship would this be allowed? hardly. Still no explanation from any of the pro riot faction about why only a minority of people riot, and all from the western regions. This seems to be a difficult question to answer.....

[Helen of Annoy]

Corruption is problem in Ukraine but also in every country in the world. Should it be reason then welcome invade Bosnia too, clean up this deyton mess please its no good for people. I see no leader in the world interested in this subject... And no i cant compare milosevich to anyone.

US keeps Bosnia and Herzegovina together, without them you’d be ripped apart between Croatia and Serbia and it would be bad news for everyone except extremely stupid extreme nationalists.

Dayton was messy deal, yes, but the only deal possible at the time when Greater Serbia still had lobby power to keep herself a possibility.

It is time to revise it and make B&H a proper state again, instead of this dysfunctional conglomerate where you have various Dodiks acting like they have a state inside of a state and it’s their personal “prchija”.

The corruption in Ukraine wasn’t and cannot be eradicated by Russian rule. Do I have to elaborate on that?

When the government is on top of being corrupt also foreign, or under foreign influence, it p***es people off immensely more. As you can see anywhere except in Kaa-Tzik's sources.

Total nonsense and you know it. There is no "dictatorship", no "repression" and people are not kept in "poverty". There certainly is corruption and incomptetence, on all sides, as nobody doubts Tymoshenko's guilt, no even her own people seriously doubt it now. Ukranians can own property and businesses, have freedom of movement within Ukraine and abroad, can publish whatever they like, within libel laws, and run radio and television stations in opposition to government. Much of what is shown happening in Kiev on western media comes from "Espreso" TV, that has added the word "Revolution" to it's name. In a dictatorship would this be allowed? hardly. Still no explanation from any of the pro riot faction about why only a minority of people riot, and all from the western regions. This seems to be a difficult question to answer.....

We are both biased and will die as such, but in order to discuss at all, you must understand that this extremist crap in form of complete denial that you keep bringing is not worth discussion. It's pure, low grade propaganda. Honour me with more sophisticated crap.

Or even better, wake up, have a coffee, read about new laws, get back to me when you are ready to admit you've been peddling totalitarianism here.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

US keeps Bosnia and Herzegovina together, without them you’d be ripped apart between Croatia and Serbia and it would be bad news for everyone except extremely stupid extreme nationalists.

Dayton was messy deal, yes, but the only deal possible at the time when Greater Serbia still had lobby power to keep herself a possibility.

It is time to revise it and make B&H a proper state again, instead of this dysfunctional conglomerate where you have various Dodiks acting like they have a state inside of a state and it’s their personal “prchija”.

The corruption in Ukraine wasn’t and cannot be eradicated by Russian rule. Do I have to elaborate on that?

When the government is on top of being corrupt also foreign, or under foreign influence, it p***es people off immensely more. As you can see anywhere except in Kaa-Tzik's sources.

Listen, Bosnia cant be ripped amoung Croatia and Serbia. In war time we had nothing, especially in Sarajevo and u know what? We did survive and actually by the end of 1995 were close, with Croatian army, to overtake every part of Bosnia. Then UN said ' u stop or we bomb your asses too '. Then, dayton was made.

So please, that dream of having Bosnia teared up amoung Serbia and Croatia should have been over few hundred years now but if not i think in 1990 its confirmed, Bosnia have people who love their country among bosnian serbs and croats too

Corruption is not a reason to start revolution as its present in every gouvernment.

I defend this position about Ukraine because i know how things from relevant source and that would be people in Kiev.

PS

Russia is not trying to overtake Ukraine. Thats a fact.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Sir Smoke aLot

[Helen of Annoy]

Listen, Bosnia cant be ripped amoung Croatia and Serbia. In war time we had nothing, especially in Sarajevo and u know what? We did survive and actually by the end of 1995 were close, with Croatian army, to overtake every part of Bosnia. Then UN said ' u stop or we bomb your asses too '. Then, dayton was made.

So please, that dream of having Bosnia teared up amoung Serbia and Croatia should have been over few hundred years now but if not i think in 1990 its confirmed, Bosnia have people who love their country among bosnian serbs and croats too

I wish I could hug you through the screen. May your words be proven as right and mine turn out to be only paranoia.

Corruption is not a reason to start revolution as its present in every gouvernment.

Oh, yes, it is. **** being present in each street doesn’t mean I won’t pick up my dog’s turd and place it where it belongs, in the thrash.

Bad things shouldn’t be tolerated just because they are widespread.

I defend this position about Ukraine because i know how things from relevant source and that would be people in Kiev.

PS

Russia is not trying to overtake Ukraine. Thats a fact.

*groan*

Currently, West doesn’t hide their stance, preferences or very limited help they offer.

On the other side is Russia, nominally “not meddling into internal affairs” of a country they have already literally paid to join their “customs union”.

Current pro-Russian Ukrainian government accepted, significant portion of Ukrainian people refused. Government made new laws to enable unrestricted violence against the significant portion of the people.

If you approve of that, then say it loud and clear: "I approve of nationalistic, totalitarian violence. I am imperialist."

Maybe there’s an idiot in nature that can’t see “mini USSR” in that “customs union”, but I’m not that monumentally stupid.

Maybe there are certain Europeans so rabidly against EU they would rather see USSR in their backyard, but the backyard, with relatively rare exceptions, do not approve of that.

[Helen of Annoy]

Here's a short one that looks objective enough for my taste, if anyone wants to know what exactly is going on in Kyiv:

http://www.independe...ev-9083107.html

Edited January 25, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[stevewinn]

still doesnt seem reason enough to

Here's a short one that looks objective enough for my taste, if anyone wants to know what exactly is going on in Kyiv:

http://www.independe...ev-9083107.html

still doesn't seem enough reason to go rioting. would signing the EU agreement stop the rioting?

[Helen of Annoy]

still doesnt seem reason enough to

still doesn't seem enough reason to go rioting. would signing the EU agreement stop the rioting?

Yes. (Because that can be done only if the current government steps down, they can't possibly turn down Putin now, after they took the money.)

In few months everyone would be moaning about EU, the way it didn't turn out the way they expected, about incompetence of the new government and so on, so the best anti-EU strategy would be to let them have EU. I'm completely serious.

[questionmark]

still doesnt seem reason enough to

still doesn't seem enough reason to go rioting. would signing the EU agreement stop the rioting?

As Klitschko said yesterday:

4 weeks ago it would have been enough to fire the interior minister, 4 days ago to fire the government. Now nothing short of Yanokovitch quitting will do.

[stevewinn]

Yes. (Because that can be done only if the current government steps down, they can't possibly turn down Putin now, after they took the money.)

In few months everyone would be moaning about EU, the way it didn't turn out the way they expected, about incompetence of the new government and so on, so the best anti-EU strategy would be to let them have EU. I'm completely serious.

The country is tearing itself apart to join the EU, you have Russia using soft power to keep Ukraine in their sphere of influence and you have the EU doing exactly the same thing, - with the ultimate goal of EU expansion in Ukraine becoming a full EU and Eurozone Member. - slowly but surely the EU as been gobbling up all the former soviet satellite states. now with the crimean in sight its all out offensive to overthrow the government to rid Ukraine of its Russian leaning government. and install a EU leaning government. where have we seen this before? oh, yes the removal of the Italian and Greek government after a visit from the troika.

[Kaa-Tzik]

We are both biased and will die as such, but in order to discuss at all, you must understand that this extremist crap in form of complete denial that you keep bringing is not worth discussion. It's pure, low grade propaganda. Honour me with more sophisticated crap.

Or even better, wake up, have a coffee, read about new laws, get back to me when you are ready to admit you've been peddling totalitarianism here.

I don't think your post will do much to convince anybody "sitting on the fence". You just keep shouting slogans about bad Russia/Putin/USSR and now government of Yanukovich is "totalitarian". You provide no reasons, though you are clever at making your posts seem as if they give reasons, they do not. If Ukraine is "totalitarian", then why are all the activities I showed in my previous post allowed? please tell. Also were is the Ukranian Gulag and concentration camps, were is the Ukranian Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay, what countries has Ukraine invaded and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. Where are the political refugees from Ukraine? Does Ukraine have an operation that spies on seemingly the entire world?. You don't like new laws to restrict the ability to riot, well, perhaps you like to live in chaos, or other people..... You think "democracy" or "free speech" is under threat in Ukraine, then go to London and stand on the pavement by the Cenotaph war memorial in Whitehall, alone and not blocking the pavement, and quietly read out a list of names of the British dead from Iraq and Afghanistan, then you will soon see the limits of "free speech" in UK. Let that Putin calls for regime change in America or UK or any EU country and we will fast see the true face of these meddling hypocrites.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Here's a short one that looks objective enough for my taste, if anyone wants to know what exactly is going on in Kyiv:

http://www.independe...ev-9083107.html

Really, so to get the "true" picture of what happens in Kiev we have to read the UK press, I think not.....

[Kaa-Tzik]

Maybe there’s an idiot in nature that can’t see “mini USSR” in that “customs union”, but I’m not that monumentally stupid.

Maybe there are certain Europeans so rabidly against EU they would rather see USSR in their backyard, but the backyard, with relatively rare exceptions, do not approve of that.

And EU is not rapidly heading to be a EUSSR with unelected officials? Let there be no doubt, the Euro MPs have no power, it is all in hands of a clique of failed and unelected politicians.

And still nobody answers why the rioters are from western Ukraine if it is supossed to be that all Ukraine is "suppressed". Why are not ordinary Ukranians from the other regions, Russian, Ukranian and mixed, not rioting or taking over government buildings. Nobody answers, why, because it is an inconvenient fact. Show the people from Sevastopol or Odessa or Donetsk rioting against "totalitarianism", please...

Edited January 25, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Sir Smoke aLot]

I wish I could hug you through the screen. May your words be proven as right and mine turn out to be only paranoia.

Its just like that really, maybe u have such opinion because of all thats happened tru years but that same history makes me certain that Bosnia will never again be territory which will take part of anything else then EU.

Lets just say that after 1992 Bosnian independence referendum such thing as breaking Bosnia apart among Croatia and Serbia is impossible. Zar nisu to dovoljno protabirili u Karadjordjevu? Kad tada nije moglo nece moci nikad Mislim da ovo nije nesto o cemu trebamo diskutovati, ne jer mislim bi se svadjali jednostavno je suvisno o tome pricati. Il grijesim

As for corruption, well u know what? Lets change the world and every country, its all corrupted. Thats not gonna happen, but why should anyone force such things only in some countries?

And i really cant see Russia in the way that u describe, actually some of latest world wide 'shows' do make me think that very positively about Russia. ( and from this point of view i should, by all means, naturally, hate russia - but i like to use my brain and believe in people and thankfully, it was right thing to do )

And EU is not rapidly heading to be a EUSSR with unelected officials? Let there be no doubt, the Euro MPs have no power, it is all in hands of a clique of failed and unelected politicians.

And still nobody answers why the rioters are from western Ukraine if it is supossed to be that all Ukraine is "suppressed". Why are not ordinary Ukranians from the other regions, Russian, Ukranian and mixed, not rioting or taking over government buildings. Nobody answers, why, because it is an inconvenient fact. Show the people from Sevastopol or Odessa or Donetsk rioting against "totalitarianism", please...

Well, i guess we have to wait few days or more... As for now, no one can explain that statement and anyone who think will see something in that fact! Where are majority of people? Who is on the streets?

Edited January 25, 2014 by Sir Smoke aLot

[Helen of Annoy]

The country is tearing itself apart to join the EU, you have Russia using soft power to keep Ukraine in their sphere of influence and you have the EU doing exactly the same thing, - with the ultimate goal of EU expansion in Ukraine becoming a full EU and Eurozone Member. - slowly but surely the EU as been gobbling up all the former soviet satellite states. now with the crimean in sight its all out offensive to overthrow the government to rid Ukraine of its Russian leaning government. and install a EU leaning government. where have we seen this before? oh, yes the removal of the Italian and Greek government after a visit from the troika.

EU leaning doesn’t mean the same in, for example, Italy and in Poland.

All financial calculations are in vain at this moment, because joining EU is not about finances for any of the countries that used to be behind Iron Curtain.

It’s about emancipation.

Personally, I think of EU as geopolitical garlic: yes, it stinks, but it repels the political undead who don’t smell of roses either.

Really, so to get the "true" picture of what happens in Kiev we have to read the UK press, I think not.....

Why not UK press? Are they incapable of objectivity according to the party bulletin of yours or what?

Or we’ll ask the fox what are chickens doing in their pen?

And EU is not rapidly heading to be a EUSSR with unelected officials? Let there be no doubt, the Euro MPs have no power, it is all in hands of a clique of failed and unelected politicians.

And still nobody answers why the rioters are from western Ukraine if it is supossed to be that all Ukraine is "suppressed". Why are not ordinary Ukranians from the other regions, Russian, Ukranian and mixed, not rioting or taking over government buildings. Nobody answers, why, because it is an inconvenient fact. Show the people from Sevastopol or Odessa or Donetsk rioting against "totalitarianism", please...

Why oh why ordinary people are not out in the streets so that police can strip them (in sub-zero temperature and snow), beat the **** out of them and post video so the whole world can see what happens when you have an opinion in totalitarianism?

Why oh why are towns that are practically within military bases not flourishing with EU sentiment?

Why oh why are you asking me such stupid questions?

And why oh why you think a vote from Odessa is worth more than vote from Kyiv?

Edited January 25, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Helen of Annoy]

Kaa-Tzik!!!

Why oh why you didn't tell me this:

Non-UK source:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yanukovych-offers-prime-ministers-job-to-yatseniuk-makes-other-concessions-335591.html

President Viktor Yanukovych has offered to dismiss Prime Minister Mykola Azarov and give the job to opposition leader Arseniy Yatseniuk.

appointing opposition leader Vitali Klitschko deputy prime minister;

amnesty for protesters in exchange for returning control of government buildings seized by EuroMaidan supporters in 13 regions to the authorities; and

-- willingness by Yanukovych to change the constitution to create a parliamentary republic instead of the current strong presidential system.

Not that the opposition has accepted.

[Mr.United_Nations]

talk about pressure, Mubarak did the same but it was to late and too little, the same will happen, remmeber its a small section rioting but alot more protesting against the government

[Kaa-Tzik]

Why not UK press? Are they incapable of objectivity according to the party bulletin of yours or what?

Or we’ll ask the fox what are chickens doing in their pen?

Why oh why ordinary people are not out in the streets so that police can strip them (in sub-zero temperature and snow), beat the **** out of them and post video so the whole world can see what happens when you have an opinion in totalitarianism?

Why oh why are towns that are practically within military bases not flourishing with EU sentiment?

Why oh why are you asking me such stupid questions?

And why oh why you think a vote from Odessa is worth more than vote from Kyiv?

For the UK press. They are incapable of rational objectivity with anything to do with Russia. In this regard the "broadsheets" are as bad as the yellow press.

As regards the rest of your post. Vapour...

Edited January 25, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

Kaa-Tzik!!!

Why oh why you didn't tell me this:

Non-UK source:

http://www.kyivpost....ons-335591.html

Not that the opposition has accepted.

I could have posted about this some hours ago, but thought to spare your blushes into explaining how this rather goes against the idea that Yanukovich is Moscow's man in Kiev

[acidhead]

I just watched the RT video of protesters violently attacking police inside some government building. I'll admit I feel for the police being attacked. Violence is going to solve nothing for the protesters and for the Ukrainian nation.

[Helen of Annoy]

I could have posted about this some hours ago, but thought to spare your blushes into explaining how this rather goes against the idea that Yanukovich is Moscow's man in Kiev

Aw, spared me blushes... how nice of you.

He is, it's a trap.

But at least they're talking.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Oppresive regime? oh really. If this was so, then why are not all Ukranians out rioting, why only a minority from the western regions? Do you suggest that people in the western regions are "oppressed" by the other regions, or by central government?. The logic behind your comment is rather damaged by the facts. Your phrasing also strongly suggests an outside force, the EU, entering Ukraine to "restore order", as Barosso has also intimated. Are you happy with making war in Europe? do you wish WWIII to get closer?.

Milosevic was indeed special 'mental' case. I would not compare him to anyone else as main idea leading him was to destroy all the others and have the lands for his people.

I dont see anyone who needs to be saved but after this riots started there are victims and crimes are being commited. That is telling much. People in many other countries were doing just fine but after so called 'revolutions' started they lost so much.

The "frothing" is from EU/US politicians and media. Perhaps you can answer that if these riots are to "free the people from oppression", then why are only western Ukranians rioting, why only a minority of the population. Odessa has a mixed population, were is the "oppression", were are the riots and calls to be "saved" by the EU?

My point was it's all looking like history repeating. A few agitators, a lot of noise and an outside power steps claiming to be "the saviour of the people".

The Nazis did it, the invaded Austria that way, claiming that there was a "German" minority who were being oppressed and calling to be saved/protected.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Sir Wearer of Hats

[Kaa-Tzik]

My point was it's all looking like history repeating. A few agitators, a lot of noise and an outside power steps claiming to be "the saviour of the people".

The Nazis did it, the invaded Austria that way, claiming that there was a "German" minority who were being oppressed and calling to be saved/protected.

In retrospect I see that is what your original post meant. It just didn't seem clear to me at first reading. Apologies for seeing it wrong.