Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[bmk1245]

These points are a mix of lies, irelevance and putting words in my mouth.

So, you still only shout the tiresome anti Putin/Russia slogans and are unwilling or unable to discuss what is happening in Ukraine and why. I am not surprised at this.....

Of course, any criticism towards Russian/Putin politics is "anti Russian". Don't dare to point out Russian puppeteering in Ukraine... How else you can explain sudden Putin's "majestic gesture" to slash down prices on gas for Ukraine, huh? Just for the nice eyes, right?

You remind me of good old "uncle Leo":

You know what I mean, the spaghetti's not al dente? Cook's an anti-Semite. Loses a bet on a horse. Secretariat? Anti-Semitic. Doesn't get a good seat at the temple. Rabbi? Anti-Semite.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Of course, any criticism towards Russian/Putin politics is "anti Russian". Don't dare to point out Russian puppeteering in Ukraine... How else you can explain sudden Putin's "majestic gesture" to slash down prices on gas for Ukraine, huh? Just for the nice eyes, right?

You remind me of good old "uncle Leo":

[media=][/media]

You seem very desperate now to avoid the situation in Ukraine.....

I am not about anti-semitism per se, and that will be obvious to any informed and intelligent person. I am simply pointing out that EU/US politicians, who in normal circumstances are very anti-fascist, are encouraging anti-semitic and anti-Russian fascists. You, and others, clearly do not want me to point out this very obvious truth, do you. The issue is not fascists in Vilnius or Moscow or London or Warsaw, but fascists from western Ukraine rioting in Kiev and trying to spread their riots across all of Ukraine. Putin or Lavrov or Zhirinovsky are not on the streets of Donets or Simferopol or Kharkov or Odessa urging an overthrow of the govenment, for whatever reason, but EU/US politicians have been doing exactly that in Kiev and continue to do so from abroad. This fact of their most blatant external interference can not be airbrushed from reality. The majority of Ukrainian people, no matter what language they speak, do not want the break up of Ukraine or any putsch or civil war, except for the minority from the western regions, who have in overthrowing regional governors and storming government offices have at the least made a coup, and probably in law, treason. That is fact, and no matter all your diversions and shouts about Putin, you cannot bury these facts.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

It seems that truth is not issue here m8. Its all about supporting rioters. Who are those people in the streets or how many grups demand changes... That is not important at all.

As u said, in any other country, especially countries that 'just have a need to interfere with other countries internal problems', such riots would be crashed in few hours time.

Rioters are minority among peaceful protesting majority and they represent their own opinion, but there are strong indications the majority of Ukrainian citizens might be more inclined to democracy than to dictatorship.

That’s what this is all about in the first place, democracy or dictatorship. Free and fair elections or Moscow’s puppet making totalitarian laws.

I won’t claim numbers I heard were right, but somewhere it was mentioned only 30% of Russian and pro-Russian minority (so, not 30% of total population, 30% of already minor number) is for actual perpetuation of dictatorship though new laws (recently revoked, but that is another trap).

Not even all ethnic Russians are interested in totalitarianism, while ethnic Ukrainians are for undead USSR only if they personally are profiting from it.

Obviously.

Yanukovich did his best to crush protests and he got homogenization of opposition in return. Naturally.

He is manoeuvring now, offering things to disunite the opposition, but they are not that greedy or stupid. Then he offers slight relief from dictatorship, revoking laws (nominally parliament revoked them, each representative by their own conscience, but we all know how that works in reality too) in attempt to buy time, postpone elections and hope for catastrophe to save his ass.

I don’t even want to write down what I think will happen when that fails.

Kaa-Tzik, will you kindly stop portraying all Ukrainians as extremists.

It's offensive and unrealistic.

No one thinks every Russian is frothing neo-Nazi, though you obviously have a lot of those too.

It's the repression that births extremism. Everyone knows that.

The longer and harsher you forbid free national expression, the more extremist nationalism you will create. I know what I'm talking about.

Edit: By the way, since prime minister resigned, the government is gone but they will “keep doing their duty until new government is elected”. I remember no date set for elections, but they obviously won’t happen before the god damned Olympics are over.

Yanukovich can prove he's not Moscow's puppet by setting elections for tomorrow.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Kaa-Tzik]

Kaa-Tzik, will you kindly stop portraying all Ukrainians as extremists.

It's offensive and unrealistic.

No one thinks every Russian is frothing neo-Nazi, though you obviously have a lot of those too.

It's the repression that births extremism. Everyone knows that.

The longer and harsher you forbid free national expression, the more extremist nationalism you will create. I know what I'm talking about.

Helen, will you stop deliberately misrepresenting what I have written. Please show even one quote from me portraying all Ukranians as extremists, just one. I correctly identify extremists from the western Ukranian regions as rioting in Kiev, illegally overthrowing regional governors and stroming government buildings and attempting to cause riots in other regions of Ukraine. Clearly you do not like this truth told, this truth about a minority, as I have always stated, of Ukranians. Here, I quote myself.

The majority of Ukrainian people, no matter what language they speak, do not want the break up of Ukraine or any putsch or civil war, except for the minority from the western regions, who have in overthrowing regional governors and storming government offices have at the least made a coup, and probably in law, treason. That is fact, and no matter all your diversions and shouts about Putin, you cannot bury these facts.

So your attempt to wrongly show me as calling all Ukranians extremists, falls flat on it's face. How did you think you could get away with blatantly misrepresenting me like this.....

[Kaa-Tzik]

Yanukovich can prove he's not Moscow's puppet by setting elections for tomorrow.

Then the rule of law and the democratic process mean nothing to you. I guess you won't complain when Brussels, and ultimately Washington's, man becomes president, eh. And please do not complain if Ukranians not from the western regions go to Kiev to riot, or Lvov to try and cause riots because they do not like Washington's man in Kiev. What is good for goose is good for gander I think....

[Kaa-Tzik]

Yanukovich did his best to crush protests

Really, so why are they still there rioting? Do you not think that these rioters could have all been crushed if he had the will. More police injured than rioters, two rioters dead and two police dead. I wonder what the ratios would be for riots to overthrow government in Washington would be. Probably a few dozen police injured and many hundreds or even thousands of rioters injured, and how many dead knowing how American police would use force..... There were riots in Vienna against a fascist gathering, so, will the EU send a warning to Vienna, and if not, then why to Kiev, eh.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

It's the repression that births extremism. Everyone knows that.

What "repression", and by who and against who, please be more specific about this, maybe show repressed people in Ukraine, go ahead, show.

[Helen of Annoy]

Helen, will you stop deliberately misrepresenting what I have written. Please show even one quote from me portraying all Ukranians as extremists, just one. I correctly identify extremists from the western Ukranian regions as rioting in Kiev, illegally overthrowing regional governors and stroming government buildings and attempting to cause riots in other regions of Ukraine. Clearly you do not like this truth told, this truth about a minority, as I have always stated, of Ukranians. Here, I quote myself.

So why are you keep posting about minority (to quote you) in obvious attempt to discredit the majority?

So your attempt to wrongly show me as calling all Ukranians extremists, falls flat on it's face. How did you think you could get away with blatantly misrepresenting me like this.....

Go blatantly decide if you’re selling “dangerous EU-paid Ukrainian fascists” or agree with me this is marginal phenomenon, seen everywhere in the Slavic world.

I know how picturesque our heraldry can be so stop crying “anti-Semite” wolf. Because if such wolves do show up one day, no one will believe you anymore. Weren’t you told that story? It was meant to teach you something.

Then the rule of law and the democratic process mean nothing to you. I guess you won't complain when Brussels, and ultimately Washington's, man becomes president, eh. And please do not complain if Ukranians not from the western regions go to Kiev to riot, or Lvov to try and cause riots because they do not like Washington's man in Kiev. What is good for goose is good for gander I think....

Direct democracy.

If the people are about to dismantle a government with a president they are not satisfied with, they will do it. If the next government or president fails, they will dismantle them too. Because governments are there for the people, not the other way around.

I’m not even touching the issue of the fairness of the last elections. Suppose they were elected. Suppose they were elected. Ponder on that. Easy come, easy go. Forcefully come, forcefully go.

Really, so why are they still there rioting? Do you not think that these rioters could have all been crushed if he had the will.

Putin is smarter than that.

More police injured than rioters, two rioters dead and two police dead. I wonder what the ratios would be for riots to overthrow government in Washington would be. Probably a few dozen police injured and many hundreds or even thousands of rioters injured, and how many dead knowing how American police would use force..... There were riots in Vienna against a fascist gathering, so, will the EU send a warning to Vienna, and if not, then why to Kiev, eh.

It wasn’t American police that killed Ukrainian citizens in Ukraine, who were protesting against government that – by the opinion of the protestors – is not taking care of Ukrainian but Russian interests first.

So stop informing me of what Yanks are doing lately.

What "repression", and by who and against who, please be more specific about this, maybe show repressed people in Ukraine, go ahead, show.

Starting with presidential candidates currently in prison or with the people protesting against repression in the streets?

By the way, I was clearly talking about my own example, oh, cherry picker.

“The brotherhood and unity” of former Yugoslavia...

Please, do motivate me to elaborate on that once again.

I don't think it's realistic notion that you could make Ukrainians believe they live in idyll, so all this energy would be much better spent on constructive stuff, like making a compromise... but nooo, you want it all... because there are no examples to learn from.

[Kaa-Tzik]

So why are you keep posting about minority (to quote you) in obvious attempt to discredit the majority?

What attempt to "discredit the majority", this is total nonsnse from you to try and discredit me, meaningless distraction and froth. If I point finger at a minority, then it is at a minority, not a majority, get a dictionary as you seem confused.

[Helen of Annoy]

What attempt to "discredit the majority", this is total nonsnse from you to try and discredit me, meaningless distraction and froth. If I point finger at a minority, then it is at a minority, not a majority, get a dictionary as you seem confused.

Wonderful.

So, the majority of protestors are not rabid anti-Semites?

Why didn’t you say so. Problem solved. Let them vote now.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Go blatantly decide if you’re selling “dangerous EU-paid Ukrainian fascists” or agree with me this is marginal phenomenon, seen everywhere in the Slavic world.

I know how picturesque our heraldry can be so stop crying “anti-Semite” wolf. Because if such wolves do show up one day, no one will believe you anymore. Weren’t you told that story? It was meant to teach you something.

Are you suggesting that there are not fascists in western Ukraine? can you hear the laughter at that. They may or may not get paid by EU/US, that is to be seen, but it cannot be denied that they have the moral support of EU/US, and this is dangerous and hypocritical. There is no fantasy "anti-Semite wolf" in Ukraine, there is a real one, ask the survivors of Babi Yar and other horrors about that.

I should point out, if I have not already somewhere, that I am not Jewish, as my DNA shows.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Wonderful.

So, the majority of protestors are not rabid anti-Semites?

Why didn’t you say so. Problem solved. Let them vote now.

You either do not understand my posts, or deliberately misunderstand. It's one of the two, and likely just the normal distraction method to draw attention away from these scum rioting in Kiev and trying to drag the country into war, for that is what they want, the break up of Ukraine, or have you not noticed that.....

[Kaa-Tzik]

Direct democracy.

If the people are about to dismantle a government with a president they are not satisfied with, they will do it. If the next government or president fails, they will dismantle them too. Because governments are there for the people, not the other way around.

I’m not even touching the issue of the fairness of the last elections. Suppose they were elected. Suppose they were elected. Ponder on that. Easy come, easy go. Forcefully come, forcefully go.

Putin is smarter than that.

It wasn’t American police that killed Ukrainian citizens in Ukraine, who were protesting against government that – by the opinion of the protestors – is not taking care of Ukrainian but Russian interests first.

So stop informing me of what Yanks are doing lately.

Starting with presidential candidates currently in prison or with the people protesting against repression in the streets?

By the way, I was clearly talking about my own example, oh, cherry picker.

“The brotherhood and unity” of former Yugoslavia...

Please, do motivate me to elaborate on that once again.

I don't think it's realistic notion that you could make Ukrainians believe they live in idyll, so all this energy would be much better spent on constructive stuff, like making a compromise... but nooo, you want it all... because there are no examples to learn from.

And as for all this, well thank you for explaining that you are revolutionary, for that is what the power of the "people" is all about. How can you complain about the election of Yanukovich if you think it okay to seize power by force. On that basis then it is okay with you if the people of eastern Ukraine and Crimea, the areas with most of the industry and tourist areas, either join Russia or become a seperate state from the rest of Ukraine, that will be a basket case nightmare for the EU.

Your comment about American police simply makes no sense other than yet another attempt to make it seem you are making pertinent posts. It is distraction.

Tymoshenko is not "repressed", she is a crimminal convicted of fraud. You know well that you use the word "repression" to mean Ukranians in general, and you cannot show this. Not even people in Lvov are saying they are "repressed". More distraction from you, more attempts to make it seem you make valid points when it is simply vapour.

And as for "compromise". Those not accepting compromise are clearly the rioters who will not accept the repeal of the anti-riot laws and the resignation of the prime minister and all his ministers. They do not want "compromise" they want everything, so please, don't lecture on compromise.

[Helen of Annoy]

Are you suggesting that there are not fascists in western Ukraine? can you hear the laughter at that. They may or may not get paid by EU/US, that is to be seen, but it cannot be denied that they have the moral support of EU/US, and this is dangerous and hypocritical. There is no fantasy "anti-Semite wolf" in Ukraine, there is a real one, ask the survivors of Babi Yar and other horrors about that.

I should point out, if I have not already somewhere, that I am not Jewish, as my DNA shows.

You’re posting like sheep is ****ting lately, drop it all at once, I don’t have that much patience to collect all your little... posts...

For the end of this argument, where a blind man was trying to tell me what **** looks like, see last post on the previous page.

What follows is just p***ing contest.

Ask survivors of Holodomor if there’re communist undead going after braaaaains.

Apparently, they already got yours.

By the way, I’m not sure if I’m not part Jewish. Sadly, on my father’s side, not mother’s, so I can’t accuse rabbi of being anti-Semite if he doesn’t give me the best seat in the synagogue...

Edited January 28, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Kaa-Tzik]

You’re posting like sheep is ****ting lately, drop it all at once, I don’t have that much patience to collect all your little... posts...

For the end of this argument, where a blind man was trying to tell me what **** looks like, see last post on the previous page.

What follows is just p***ing contest.

Ask survivors of Holodomor if there’re communist undead going after braaaaains.

Apparently, they already got yours.

By the way, I’m not sure if I’m not part Jewish. Sadly, on my father’s side, not mother’s, so I can’t accuse rabbi of being anti-Semite if he doesn’t give me the best seat in the synagogue...

So, all you can do is resort to ***** language and drag in the Holodor completely out of context, and knowing that Russians also died in considerable numbers due to the bad management of the Georgian Stalin and his friends from the Caucasus and Poland.

If you want to mention Holodomor, then do so in context of that the burden of deaths in Ukraine fell more heavily on the right bank, the mainly Russian speaking side, not the western side. And then there are all the deaths in Kuban, so look at a map to see where Kuban is, and, well, it just goes on...

Besides, how does the Holodomor excuse western Ukranian fascists killing Jews and ethnic Russians when the nazis came? how does it excuse western Ukranian fascists rioting in Kiev and trying to destabalise the country?

Edited January 28, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

So, all you can do is resort to ***** language and drag in the Holodor completely out of context, and knowing that Russians also died in considerable numbers due to the bad management of the Georgian Stalin and his friends from the Caucasus and Poland.

If you want to mention Holodomor, then do so in context of that the burden of deaths in Ukraine fell more heavily on the right bank, the mainly Russian speaking side, not the western side. And then there are all the deaths in Kuban, so look at a map to see where Kuban is, and, well, it just goes on...

There’s no context that can change unfathomable horror of Holodomor and Holocaust.

More than 80% of the dead in Holodomor were Ukrainians. Connect the dots yourself.

I don’t care what was nation of the body Satan possessed and called himself Stalin.

edit: and stop editing already...

Psychopaths kill people for no reason, they need excuses, not reasons. That’s why fascists of any nation are killing. Because they want to.

You keep having Holodomor thrown into your face because you keep pulling WWII skeletons out of damn history closet. Is there any chance this god damned WWII will end yet??

Ah, so now you’ll claim again that Ukrainian fascists are rioting... let me guess, you’ll reply with denying you are trying to smear protest with fascism...

Ukraine was not just destabilized, it was relieved of her sovereignty under Yanukovich.

Restore sovereignty and democracy and then why wouldn’t Ukraine and Russia be partners?

What’s with that Russian imperialism? Can it possibly end well? For anyone?

Edited January 28, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Kaa-Tzik]

There’s no context that can change unfathomable horror of Holodomor and Holocaust.

More than 80% of the dead in Holodomor were Ukrainians. Connect the dots yourself.

I don’t care what was nation of the body Satan possessed and called himself Stalin.

Who is a Ukranian and who is not a Ukranian, and I do not mean by passport. Plenty of Russian speakers will say they are Ukranian, and they are not wrong. What about those from Lvov, are they "real" Ukranians, or are they Poles or Lithuanians. Ukranian "nationalists" include in their grossly inflated figures for deaths, the population of Kuban as Ukranian, yet look at the map, ask the natives if they are Ukranian or Russian. My mother was born in Krasnodar city.

spokoynoy nochi

Edited January 28, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

Laku noc.

Check under bed for fascists.

I always do, ever since psychopaths led by socialist dictator from brotherly country tried to kill me in my sleep.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Helen of Annoy]

All right, there are no coincidences.

This article may seem off topic, but it explains a lot, especially the race and national issue in Slavic countries, in case anyone was worried with what Lavrov said in this thread.

Also, when an actual fascist, Milosevic, wanted to attack and occupy Croatia, he claimed he is protecting anti-fascist Serbian minority from Croatian Nazi majority. Just like you've seen in this thread, where it was suggested by some that political inclination is somehow determined by nation.

http://www.24sata.hr/sudbine/ostao-je-tu-zbog-zene-ja-sam-crni-mate-hrvat-sam-da-znate-350895

He remained here because of a woman: I am Black Mate, Croat, just so that you know

Former guitarist of Belgrade (that’s in Serbia) band Galija moved to Vrgorac (that’s in Croatia), because of his wife Neli. During the war (aggression of Serbia on Croatia in 1990s) he stood by his friends. He fought for Croatian side and saved refugees in Bosnia.

Jean Jacques Roskam (60) is exceptional guitarist, the most popular dark skinned rocker of Yugoslavia, his stage name is Jack, he’s veteran of Croatian Homeland war, humanitarian and now also a tour guide.

He was born in Kongo, officially he’s Belgian, but when he speaks of Croatia, he always says “we” or “ours”. He fell in love with her (Croatia) because of a girl from Vrgorac, Neli.

“I fell in love with her and with Dalmatia on the first day.” he says. For the townspeople it was a little too much.

“Grandmothers would close the windows, praying their milk doesn’t go sour while I was passing by.” he remembers. Though he polished his natural gift playing in Belgian band whose singer was Dani Klein, future star of Vaya Con Dios, and recorded six albums with popular Belgrade band Galija, Jack plays only for his own pleasure today.

Besides, people of Vrgorac grew to like him. They and people from villages in the area nicknamed him “Black Mate” (Mate being stereotypical Dalmatian name). And how couldn’t they?

The outbreak of Homeland war happened while Jack’s family was in Belgium. But he couldn’t leave his friends in Dalmatia. He came back to Vrgorac for his guitar, but put Kalashnikov on his shoulder instead.

“I couldn’t just take my stuff and leave. I put the uniform on and remained here to defend Croatia.” he says. Serbian media nicknamed him “black ustasha” (ustashe were Croatian Nazis), after which Jack knew he can’t ever return to Belgrade. Then he switched from the front to humanitarian work and was saving refugees from Bosnia devastated by war.

And his love with a Croatian woman?

“Neli and I, we love each other like on the first day.” he says. The fruit of their love are Manuska and Mateo. His daughter gave him two granddaughters and his son is playing in Slaven Belupo football club.

The film “Jack the Balkans and I” was made about his musical career and the reunion he and members of his band Galija had after 17 years. This film was supposed to be shown at the opening of the Brussels’ film festival in 2008, but the projection was stopped by Serbian embassy.

And that's how one becomes a Croat. You just decide so and work for your country, not against it. You do not sell it. I think that's actually universal for all nations.

[Mr.United_Nations]

You seem to have no idea of the geography, ethnic and linguistic mix, history of Ukraine or the present situation. The rioters in Kiev are from western Ukraine, not "the West". There are no peaceful protests in Kiev, they have all been replaced by fascist rioters who are not supported by the majority citizens of Kiev let alone the rest of Ukraine.

Well you blamed the EU and the west and also they are peaceful protests, I have seen live feed, thousands of peaceful protests, yet you are drawn to a small area because this is your only strong point for arguments sake. But you say "fascists" again thats because again you a drawn to that because you watch youtube clips and photos.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Well you blamed the EU and the west and also they are peaceful protests, I have seen live feed, thousands of peaceful protests, yet you are drawn to a small area because this is your only strong point for arguments sake. But you say "fascists" again thats because again you a drawn to that because you watch youtube clips and photos.

Until you learn the difference between the West and western Ukraine, I suggest you stop parading your ignorance in public. Much of my information comes direct from friends in Kiev and in other parts of Ukraine. Were does yours come from, your......

[Helen of Annoy]

Don’t be so nervous, Kaa-Tzik. It's not TRN's fault that there are live feeds now.

You can relax now, after the tsar has spoken in Brussels.

Putin said that Ukraine still can have cheaper gas and 15 billion dollars of loan, promised to Ukraine under now former government, even if the opposition comes to power.

That pretty much answers the original question, if Russia will send any tanks on Ukraine in case Ukrainians dismantle Yanukovich’s dictatorship. She won’t. Great news.

(It possible to imagine scenarios with completely different outcome. But at least they are not likely at this moment.)

Apparently, Putin is willing to cooperate with new Ukrainian government and if I may add, that’s what I’ve been asking all along – why wouldn’t he?

[Sir Smoke aLot]

I am not sure if this video is posted already, it was released just now.

Now tell me, if rioters did something like this ( if we assume that they would enter state building at all ) what would be police response in societies other then Ukraine? Mainly in countries that ask for changes in Ukraine.

I think that riot would be crushed long before they come close to government buildings.

How can anyone defend this kind of rioters? Do u see police forces and how they react to not provocations but to assaults?

@Helen

Putin will not change anything nor he will deny Ukraine loans if opposition come at power, but if he would do different - what effect would that have on world wide image of Russia and Putin?

[Helen of Annoy]

I am not sure if this video is posted already, it was released just now.

Now tell me, if rioters did something like this ( if we assume that they would enter state building at all ) what would be police response in societies other then Ukraine? Mainly in countries that ask for changes in Ukraine.

I think that riot would be crushed long before they come close to government buildings.

How can anyone defend this kind of rioters? Do u see police forces and how they react to not provocations but to assaults?

@Helen

Putin will not change anything nor he will deny Ukraine loans if opposition come at power, but if he would do different - what effect would that have on world wide image of Russia and Putin?

You’re not paying attention.

Tsar couldn’t be willing to accept Ukrainian opposition if they were minor bunch of aggressive western-paid fascists.

Or, if you wish to continue claiming something remotely similar to that, please do note that it will look like you’re greater Russian than Putin... and that would be kind of silly.

Ukrainians protested and yes, a portion of more agile protestors entered government buildings too. Why the hell not, it's their country, their buildings, their past, present and future they had to be vocal about.

If you think Yanukovich didn't try to force them out because he's such a nice guy, you're wrong. He gave up (at the moment, keep an eye open) because he knows what some people refuse to see: it's not a bunch of delirious fascists, it's the People. When the People are aware of what they want, and more important, of what they don't want... it's only a matter of time - when and how ugly the change will come.

Sane people should hope this change will come in much less tense way from now on.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Mr.United_Nations]

Putin wi

Until you learn the difference between the West and western Ukraine, I suggest you stop parading your ignorance in public. Much of my information comes direct from friends in Kiev and in other parts of Ukraine. Were does yours come from, your......

and its the first time you mentioned friends? well whether they sent the links to you or not is another story. You still don't get it do you? you are drawn to rioters because of what people said or what you see or read