Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[Helen of Annoy]

aha, the tanks are already warming up

This is too hilarious.

Your book said that I will respond to your provocations with threats and calling for violence, which didn't happen, so now your poor post looks totally disoriented

Funny you mention shills, by the way... do they pay you when you fail too? Yes? Aw, lucky you.

[Helen of Annoy]

One important detail got lost in angry provocateur screaming.

Contrary to Kaa-Tzik disinformation, Ukrainian opposition are not far right wingers. Like in any other country, there are various options, for every political taste.

What made situation in Ukraine exceptional is the widespread utter annoyance with ex-government and still holding president, which united the opposition. You have Yanukovich and his party (Party of Regions) plus communists (I kid you not, real live communists) on one side and the rest of the political spectrum on the other.

It’s an accomplishment, really, to unite people like that.

[bmk1245]

You seem very desperate now to avoid the situation in Ukraine.....

I am not about anti-semitism per se, and that will be obvious to any informed and intelligent person. I am simply pointing out that EU/US politicians, who in normal circumstances are very anti-fascist, are encouraging anti-semitic and anti-Russian fascists. You, and others, clearly do not want me to point out this very obvious truth, do you. The issue is not fascists in Vilnius or Moscow or London or Warsaw, but fascists from western Ukraine rioting in Kiev and trying to spread their riots across all of Ukraine. Putin or Lavrov or Zhirinovsky are not on the streets of Donets or Simferopol or Kharkov or Odessa urging an overthrow of the govenment, for whatever reason, but EU/US politicians have been doing exactly that in Kiev and continue to do so from abroad. This fact of their most blatant external interference can not be airbrushed from reality. The majority of Ukrainian people, no matter what language they speak, do not want the break up of Ukraine or any putsch or civil war, except for the minority from the western regions, who have in overthrowing regional governors and storming government offices have at the least made a coup, and probably in law, treason. That is fact, and no matter all your diversions and shouts about Putin, you cannot bury these facts.

What EU/US officials do openly, Kremlin does behind the scenes.

[stevewinn]

What EU/US officials do openly, Kremlin does behind the scenes.

I'd say both are pulling strings behind the scenes. the pictures and reports we witness are a facade to whats really going on.

Edited February 1, 2014 by stevewinn

[Kaa-Tzik]

What EU/US officials do openly, Kremlin does behind the scenes.

So, how do you stand in Kiev and shout for regime change and meet with known fascists from "behind the scenes"...

[Kaa-Tzik]

One important detail got lost in angry provocateur screaming.

Contrary to Kaa-Tzik disinformation, Ukrainian opposition are not far right wingers. Like in any other country, there are various options, for every political taste.

What made situation in Ukraine exceptional is the widespread utter annoyance with ex-government and still holding president, which united the opposition. You have Yanukovich and his party (Party of Regions) plus communists (I kid you not, real live communists) on one side and the rest of the political spectrum on the other.

It’s an accomplishment, really, to unite people like that.

You really are getting very desperate. I have not had to tell a any lies or spread dis-information as every word I have written can be checked either in history books, the printed and online media and other information outlets. It seems strange that I have not been attacked in this thread on my facts, yet now, when the truth gradually starts to appear in western press, I am accused of lies etc. So, why not many days ago....

I could post 100s of photos of obvious fascist rioters in Kiev, but I think everybody has seen, or can easily obtain these. Oh, and as for dis-information and misrepresenting me, I have never said that all the Ukrainian opposition parties are fascists, I have only said that the majority of those rioting are, that Svoboda are, and that most of those responsible for civil disturbance in other parts of Ukraine, such as storming government buildings, are fascists, mostly from Svoboda. Those rioting are not the same people as those who were demonstrating before the New Year. They were present then as "protection", but kept in the background, but the ordinary demonstrators left and the fascist rioters took their place, a fact that I wrote here some time ago.

link to Svoboda wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

[Kaa-Tzik]

And more "Alice through the Looking Glass" nonsense from the EU today. One of the "draconian" laws that they do not want Ukraine to have is about it being illegal to cover your face at a demonstration. So, no such law exists in any EU country then.......

Oh, and Rasmussen gives another threat to Ukraine, and as he is the figure head of a military alliance, then it must be presumed that his threats imply military action against Ukraine, interesting. And this pathetic and immoral idiot John Kerry gives his reasons for supporting fascist rioters. "The people of Ukraine are fighting for the right to associate with partners who will help them realize their aspirations, and they have decided that means their futres do not have to lie with one country alone, and certainly not coerced". I'm sure, apart from the cement heads who post against me as a knee jerk reaction, that people will scratch their heads about this statement, particulary as Ukraine is threatened by EU and NATO to be part of EU, or face consequences.......

[Kaa-Tzik]

aha, the tanks are already warming up

This is too hilarious.

Your book said that I will respond to your provocations with threats and calling for violence, which didn't happen, so now your poor post looks totally disoriented

Funny you mention shills, by the way... do they pay you when you fail too? Yes? Aw, lucky you.

Nothing of value to say so you resort to these cheap jibes and tricks, well well.....

[Helen of Annoy]

And more "Alice through the Looking Glass" nonsense from the EU today. One of the "draconian" laws that they do not want Ukraine to have is about it being illegal to cover your face at a demonstration. So, no such law exists in any EU country then.......

EU countries don’t slash your face, electrocute and crucify you if you do wear a mask at inappropriate place and time.

In EU countries journalists are not abducted and savagely beaten by thugs in expensive cars, leaving police "clueless" though the flashy car was enough of a lead to solve that case.

In EU countries the fall of a government is followed with elections, not war. And so on. You can see yourself why Ukrainians want to try living in less repressive way.

Oh, and Rasmussen gives another threat to Ukraine, and as he is the figure head of a military alliance, then it must be presumed that his threats imply military action against Ukraine, interesting. And this pathetic and immoral idiot John Kerry gives his reasons for supporting fascist rioters. "The people of Ukraine are fighting for the right to associate with partners who will help them realize their aspirations, and they have decided that means their futres do not have to lie with one country alone, and certainly not coerced". I'm sure, apart from the cement heads who post against me as a knee jerk reaction, that people will scratch their heads about this statement, particulary as Ukraine is threatened by EU and NATO to be part of EU, or face consequences.......

How is Ukraine threatened by EU and NATO?

Maybe Russian neo-imperial interests are threatened by Ukrainian plan to join EU, but that’s all. Ukraine is not threatened by anyone else but politicians who don’t care about their own country or nation.

Because:

Ukrainian army, neutral and refusing any statements because even questioning their stance would be considered provocation, has issued the demand for normalization of the situation in the country, within 15 days, because current situation poses a threat for country’s unity.

It was interpreted as a warning that army will get involved on Yanukovich’s side and will force protestors off the square.

But it’s the pro-Russian side that wants the secession of parts of Ukraine, aware they won’t be able to drag it whole back to USSR. The protestors demand democracy, not secession. Portion of population interested in secession is pro-Russian.

Normalization can’t happen in 15 days because Yanukovich is suddenly oh, so sick and on a sick leave.

So sick he can’t sign his resignation and let elections show what Ukrainians want.

If Kaa-Tzik is telling something remotely resembling the truth, elections will catapult Ukraine directly into Moscow arms and problem solved.

If situation in Ukraine is completely different and majority of people wants to give EU a try, then the elections will give new government and new president that will bring Ukraine closer to EU. Again, problem solved.

No need for any hysteric reactions. Let people vote and see what they say.

Or you suggest that’s not the way it should be done?

[Sir Smoke aLot]

'' The people of Ukraine are fighting for the right to associate with partners who will help them realize their aspirations, ... ''

This

John Kerry, with his supporters - allies, is he smart enough to help Ukrainian people realize.. well, anything related to life in Ukraine? Absurd really. What can any foreigner say to Ukrainian people that they cant know better?

[edit] Take for example BiH, my country, with OHR we have made such a great progress in last 20 years... Cant live without loans

Edited February 1, 2014 by Sir Smoke aLot

[Helen of Annoy]

'' The people of Ukraine are fighting for the right to associate with partners who will help them realize their aspirations, ... ''

This

John Kerry, with his supporters - allies, is he smart enough to help Ukrainian people realize.. well, anything related to life in Ukraine? Absurd really. What can any foreigner say to Ukrainian people that they cant know better?

You’d rather have Russians to tell you what you’ll aspire to?

The difference between the West and the East is that West is rotten and gives you the illusion to lure you into obedience, while the East is more rotten and simply beats you into obedience.

While it’s possible to refuse the illusion, it’s not possible to refuse being dead.

[edit] Take for example BiH, my country, with OHR we have made such a great progress in last 20 years... Cant live without loans

You lived on loans in ex-Yugoslavia. Your parents and grandparents, that is.

Broz was given western support, occasional Russian bribe and constant Non-aligned bribes.

If former socialist Serboslavia was not so obsessed with hoarding weapons and building insane gigantic fortification structures maybe these loans and bribes could have helped us build an actual economy that wouldn’t crumble so pathetically in the 1980s.

But, as soon as the Marshal Tito with his white gloves (the flashiest Mason ever seen) was dead, the whole ex-Yu circus turned feral.

Much like someone else today, greater Serbs refused to let their hegemony go. They rather scorched the place down than to learn to cooperate.

The most repulsive detail was their habit of screaming how endangered, poor victims they are, while filling mass graves with actual victims of their megalomania and stupidity.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Mr.United_Nations]

'' The people of Ukraine are fighting for the right to associate with partners who will help them realize their aspirations, ... ''

This

John Kerry, with his supporters - allies, is he smart enough to help Ukrainian people realize.. well, anything related to life in Ukraine? Absurd really. What can any foreigner say to Ukrainian people that they cant know better?

[edit] Take for example BiH, my country, with OHR we have made such a great progress in last 20 years... Cant live without loans

So you want Russia to control what you do and can't do?

[Kaa-Tzik]

EU countries don’t slash your face, electrocute and crucify you if you do wear a mask at inappropriate place and time.

In EU countries journalists are not abducted and savagely beaten by thugs in expensive cars, leaving police "clueless" though the flashy car was enough of a lead to solve that case.

In EU countries the fall of a government is followed with elections, not war. And so on. You can see yourself why Ukrainians want to try living in less repressive way.

How is Ukraine threatened by EU and NATO?

Maybe Russian neo-imperial interests are threatened by Ukrainian plan to join EU, but that’s all. Ukraine is not threatened by anyone else but politicians who don’t care about their own country or nation.

Because:

Ukrainian army, neutral and refusing any statements because even questioning their stance would be considered provocation, has issued the demand for normalization of the situation in the country, within 15 days, because current situation poses a threat for country’s unity.

It was interpreted as a warning that army will get involved on Yanukovich’s side and will force protestors off the square.

But it’s the pro-Russian side that wants the secession of parts of Ukraine, aware they won’t be able to drag it whole back to USSR. The protestors demand democracy, not secession. Portion of population interested in secession is pro-Russian.

Normalization can’t happen in 15 days because Yanukovich is suddenly oh, so sick and on a sick leave.

So sick he can’t sign his resignation and let elections show what Ukrainians want.

If Kaa-Tzik is telling something remotely resembling the truth, elections will catapult Ukraine directly into Moscow arms and problem solved.

If situation in Ukraine is completely different and majority of people wants to give EU a try, then the elections will give new government and new president that will bring Ukraine closer to EU. Again, problem solved.

No need for any hysteric reactions. Let people vote and see what they say.

Or you suggest that’s not the way it should be done?

Froth and nonsense, smokescreen and the usual mix of sly and blatant disinformation. That you cling so tightly to one man being beaten, and if he was beaten and tortured by the state, why let him go to tell the story? shows how desperate you are. I will not even bother to address you point by point as it is futile, your mind is closed, all you can do is shout "Bad Putin, bad Russia" and ignore the reality and the threats from EU and US, (Try reading even the western media and you can see the threats) Perhaps you really do want Wünsdorf re-opened and I can live there again, or maybe rather further west.....

Edited February 2, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

Kerry, and other immoralist warmongers, have the arrogance to speak for all Ukranians, that all Ukranians want with the EU. And these immoralist warmongers speak for Odessa and Crimea and Donbass? NO, they speak only for their own warmongering and money grubbing interests. I doubt Kerry even knows where Ukraine is or anything about Ukraine, for if he did, then he would surely know how totaly wrong and dangerous his statements are. Curious that so many non Ukranians, non Slavs even, suddenly become expert at Ukraine and what the people want. I'm part Ukranian by ethnicity, so, those from EU and US going to tell me what I want and what is good for a country they obviously know nothing about....

[Helen of Annoy]

Kaa-Tzik mistook me for someone else, apparently. Or his outdated manual doesn’t give instructions on what to do in case of discussion with someone who is not an equal, blind and rigid fanatic.

The Cold War was supposed to end in 1980s, Kaa, auntie’s little bright sunshine.

The reason why I give you links to my local papers is that links to western (particularly German sites have great coverage) sites would probably fry your touchy, chauvinist brain.

So if you’d take a look at various media, not just Lavrov’s private opinion, you’d find the following:

There was the Security Conference in München the other day, during which Klitschko demanded release of 300 people arrested and 27 more who are missing.

Let me repeat that: 27 Ukrainian people are missing.

One of them, Dmytro Bulatov, was found alive after being abducted and tortured for 8 days. Still official, though since resignation only technical Ukrainian government, said he “only has a scratch on his cheek”.

You may see said “only scratch on cheek” here:

http://www.24sata.hr...i-u-sumu-351676

The Conference was attended by technical Ukrainian minister of external affairs, Kozhara, who argued that “not all Ukrainians support protests at Maidan. Do not forget that there are 8 million Russians living in Ukraine.”

According to Kozhara’s logic, all Russians think the same and 8 million of them have right to determine the politics for the rest of Ukrainian population, which is 45,437,800 people in total.

So, it’s 8 million telling 37,5 million how to live their lives, even if we accept idiotic notion that nationality determines one’s political opinion. (In other words, there are pro-Russian Ukrainians too and pro-Ukrainian Russians, plus not all Russian speakers feel Russian, etc.)

It’s bizarre to assume what type of government people want based on language preferences. Elections are the only way to see what people want.

Why are technical government and the president (so sick he can’t lift a pen) so afraid of elections?

If they believe what they say is true, then why wouldn’t they have their pro-Russian politics confirmed by free and fair elections?

Free and fair, mind you.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Kaa-Tzik]

Total BS and I will not be seduced into responding point by point to such outright lies and disengenous garbage. Still waiting for an explanation as to why EU/US can tell democratically elected government how to conduct it's affairs, why NATO boss issues threats to Ukraine, why Barosso issues threats to Ukraine , why Kerry issues threats to Ukraine, why that Ukraine can have a choice between Russia and EU, but it MUST chose EU, why any western politician can have any say in Ukranian foreign affairs, with Russia or any other country. Last time I checked, Ukraine is not in EU or member of NATO or a state of USA, so by what right do any politicians from those places have a say in Ukraine. Try giving a credible answer to those questions before continuing with your anti Russian hate fest. Well,I'll make it easy, answer this, by what right does the US have to tell the democratically elected government of Ukraine what it's internal and foreign policies should be, and no garbage about Putin, just give a credible reason for the statements from US.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

Total BS and I will not be seduced into responding point by point to such outright lies and disengenous garbage. Still waiting for an explanation as to why EU/US can tell democratically elected government how to conduct it's affairs, why NATO boss issues threats to Ukraine, why Barosso issues threats to Ukraine , why Kerry issues threats to Ukraine, why that Ukraine can have a choice between Russia and EU, but it MUST chose EU, why any western politician can have any say in Ukranian foreign affairs, with Russia or any other country. Last time I checked, Ukraine is not in EU or member of NATO or a state of USA, so by what right do any politicians from those places have a say in Ukraine. Try giving a credible answer to those questions before continuing with your anti Russian hate fest. Well,I'll make it easy, answer this, by what right does the US have to tell the democratically elected government of Ukraine what it's internal and foreign policies should be, and no garbage about Putin, just give a credible reason for the statements from US.

Oh, come on, if I keep wasting time on responding to your outdated Cold War slogans, why wouldn’t you respond with calm explanation on:

Why are the votes of the Russian minority worth more than votes of Ukrainian majority?

Why is pro-Russian technical government so certain that all Russian speakers are Russians and think the same, while not all Ukrainians are Ukrainian and they don’t think the same?

Why is the government that has resigned so afraid of new elections that should – according to their opinion – only install them back in power?

Why is Yanukovich suddenly so sick he can’t sign two papers? (Look at Klitschko, flying around together with the flu he caught. Speaking of which, why don’t you accuse him of biological warfare Oh, oh, wait, I know why, that’s because he shook many western, European hands in München Maybe he works for you )

What Putin? Why you keep seeing Putin in this thread? Hasn’t he said Russia will accept new Ukrainian government, regardless if it’s oppositional? So?

Are you greater Russian than tsar? Apparently you are.

[Kaa-Tzik]

You now surpass zoser in deliberately misrepresenting other posters...

Without reference to any other country, a very important question to be answered, which you will not of course, is, What right does the US have to tell the democratically elected government of Ukraine what it's internal and foreign policies should be?

[Helen of Annoy]

You now surpass zoser in deliberately misrepresenting other posters...

Without reference to any other country, a very important question to be answered, which you will not of course, is, What right does the US have to tell the democratically elected government of Ukraine what it's internal and foreign policies should be?

US have no right to tell democratically elected governments of any country what to do.

See, that's how direct answers to direct questions are made. No matter how deliberately misleading the question was.

Now it’s your turn. Answer each question directly. Ready?

If a government that was elected in suspicious but officially valid elections had lost support and trust of majority of citizens, what would be the only logical course of action? New elections, maybe? Or suppressing public opinion by force?

If 27 protestors are still missing and one abducted was found tortured, what credibility a government that has done nothing to prevent and stop that, has left?

Why are votes of Russian minority worth more than votes of Ukrainian majority?

And do you personally really believe it’s the US that spoilt Ukrainian idyll?

Do you really believe it takes any outside influence for former Warsaw pact prisoners in order to make them refuse returning to the same prison they barely freed themselves from?

Are you stupid, son?

(Not meant as an insult, I'm genuinely curious if you're that lost or you do this for living. In case you have to do this for living, I promise to go as easy on you as I did so far.)

[Mr.United_Nations]

Kerry, and other immoralist warmongers, have the arrogance to speak for all Ukranians, that all Ukranians want with the EU. And these immoralist warmongers speak for Odessa and Crimea and Donbass? NO, they speak only for their own warmongering and money grubbing interests. I doubt Kerry even knows where Ukraine is or anything about Ukraine, for if he did, then he would surely know how totaly wrong and dangerous his statements are. Curious that so many non Ukranians, non Slavs even, suddenly become expert at Ukraine and what the people want. I'm part Ukranian by ethnicity, so, those from EU and US going to tell me what I want and what is good for a country they obviously know nothing about....

So in the latest conference, Kerry agrees with the Russians, so does that make the Russians war mongers? Ukraine never wanted to be part of Russia thats why its called Ukraine, instead of blaming all sorts of people, actually do something about it, you seem to know everything and I think its you who's war mongering

[questionmark]

So in the latest conference, Kerry agrees with the Russians, so does that make the Russians war mongers? Ukraine never wanted to be part of Russia thats why its called Ukraine, instead of blaming all sorts of people, actually do something about it, you seem to know everything and I think its you who's war mongering

The Russians? God forbid... they are the most peaceful people in the world!.... as long as all dissent can be locked in Siberia, of course.

[Kaa-Tzik]

So in the latest conference, Kerry agrees with the Russians, so does that make the Russians war mongers? Ukraine never wanted to be part of Russia thats why its called Ukraine, instead of blaming all sorts of people, actually do something about it, you seem to know everything and I think its you who's war mongering

You have no idea what you are talking about, as usual....

[Kaa-Tzik]

The Russians? God forbid... they are the most peaceful people in the world!.... as long as all dissent can be locked in Siberia, of course.

And this from a citizen of the country that has caused hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in two uncalled for and agressive wars against Iraq, and a country whose police and National Guard would have been shooting rioters dead if they tried to do what was happening in Kiev. Then of course there is the question of the death penalty in US and the cruel and abortive way it is used. Oh, and you self righteous hypocrites shout about Russia being anti-gay, yet are quiet about your friends in Saudi and many other places which kill gays. Any comment on the mass protestors in Paris today who call for "family values" and no gay marrige etc? Will Kerry, McCain, Barroso, Van Rompuy, Ashton and the other crap heads be sending warnings to Paris and threatening to boycot France. Somehow I think not. Hypocrites.

[questionmark]

And this from a citizen of the country that has caused hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in two uncalled for and agressive wars against Iraq, and a country whose police and National Guard would have been shooting rioters dead if they tried to do what was happening in Kiev. Then of course there is the question of the death penalty in US and the cruel and abortive way it is used. Oh, and you self righteous hypocrites shout about Russia being anti-gay, yet are quiet about your friends in Saudi and many other places which kill gays. Any comment on the mass protestors in Paris today who call for "family values" and no gay marrige etc? Will Kerry, McCain, Barroso, Van Rompuy, Ashton and the other crap heads be sending warnings to Paris and threatening to boycot France. Somehow I think not. Hypocrites.

Well, we are at least not hypocritical enough to claim we are innocent of all. In fact, we did it and proud of it (mostly).

[Kaa-Tzik]

US have no right to tell democratically elected governments of any country what to do.

The insults, lies, distraction and re-direction techniques in your post I will ignore.

So, now we have finally established that the US has no right to dictate domestic and foreign policy to another country, let us move on to the next question.

Given that Ukraine is not a member of the EU, does the EU have the right to dictate the domestic and foreign policies of Ukraine?