Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[Kaa-Tzik]

Well, we are at least not hypocritical enough to claim we are innocent of all. In fact, we did it and proud of it (mostly).

Evasive. I was specific in mentioning Iraq, and note I have not mentioned Afghanistan as the intial 2001 war was justified because the Taliban government did help Bin Laden to attack America. So, which bits are you "proud of", the civilian body count? The horrendous (despite the crimes comitted) botched executions? The knowledge that your security forces will have severely and with deadly force dealt with riots such as in Kiev? Or the hypocrisy about gays? Which of these are you, "(mostly)", proud of.

[Mr.United_Nations]

The insults, lies, distraction and re-direction techniques in your post I will ignore.

So, now we have finally established that the US has no right to dictate domestic and foreign policy to another country, let us move on to the next question.

Given that Ukraine is not a member of the EU, does the EU have the right to dictate the domestic and foreign policies of Ukraine?

Neither does Russia have to dictate.

[Mr.United_Nations]

And this from a citizen of the country that has caused hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in two uncalled for and agressive wars against Iraq, and a country whose police and National Guard would have been shooting rioters dead if they tried to do what was happening in Kiev. Then of course there is the question of the death penalty in US and the cruel and abortive way it is used. Oh, and you self righteous hypocrites shout about Russia being anti-gay, yet are quiet about your friends in Saudi and many other places which kill gays. Any comment on the mass protestors in Paris today who call for "family values" and no gay marrige etc? Will Kerry, McCain, Barroso, Van Rompuy, Ashton and the other crap heads be sending warnings to Paris and threatening to boycot France. Somehow I think not. Hypocrites.

We all know about Saudi Arabia, theres no major protest their. But this is about Ukraine

You have no idea what you are talking about, as usual....

Do you actually even watch anything?

[Kaa-Tzik]

We all know about Saudi Arabia, theres no major protest their. But this is about Ukraine

And this post is about, what exactly?

Neither does Russia have to dictate.

And it has not, except in the imaginations of the usual Russophobes stuck in the cold war....

[Kaa-Tzik]

We all know about Saudi Arabia, theres no major protest their. But this is about Ukraine

Do you actually even watch anything?

I have been there, I am part Ukranian. Any other questions......

[Helen of Annoy]

The insults, lies, distraction and re-direction techniques in your post I will ignore.

So, now we have finally established that the US has no right to dictate domestic and foreign policy to another country, let us move on to the next question.

Given that Ukraine is not a member of the EU, does the EU have the right to dictate the domestic and foreign policies of Ukraine?

No, no, no, my pioneer, you do not get to ignore the questions I asked.

Since you obviously can't answer them all, let's start with baby steps:

Why are votes of Russian minority worth more than votes of Ukrainian majority?

Then we can move on to the question of 27 abducted and one found alive and tortured.

Edit: Just a little preview of my answer to come after you do your answering: every member of EU adapts to the Union, there are no dictates, it's not Russian customs union where you get crucified for refusing the orders from Moscow.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[acidhead]

Just curious...

What economic benefit would there be to the average individual if the Ukraine became an EU member?

[questionmark]

Just curious...

What economic benefit would there be to the average individual if the Ukraine became an EU member?

immediate none, a few years down the line they could try to find a job in the richer countries of the EU (which many already do) without the visa limitations. The secondary effect is that EU companies prefer to invest in the EU, therefore, just like Czechia and Slovakia or Poland they would have the jobs at home instead of abroad. What does the EU get? 45,000,000 new potential consumers and lots of grain making it independent from the rest of the world market.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Just curious...

What economic benefit would there be to the average individual if the Ukraine became an EU member?

questionmark has answered correctly, and that will surprise him for me to say so, but I believe in honesty, not games, and if something correct is said, then I will acknowledge so. Though it is not the full picture... Having read all 906 pages of the agreement and other documentation, it is clear that Ukraine, even in the best of circumstances, would not become a full member of the EU for 15 years. The agreement goes beyond trade, it injects the EU into every area of life, education, sport, tourism, culture, multi-culturalism, minorities and on and on. This is not trade, this is political, and much of what is in the document, aside from very very many pages of definitions and names of produce, wine, cheese etc, it contains much of the elements of the EU that a substantial number of the populations of current member states do not like, the UK being chief amongst them. So Ukraine would have all the garbage, but without actually being a member and have a vote on any of these matters that will effect Ukraine. A further point, so far not covered in this thread, is the China-Ukraine land deal, which seems to rent 5% of land in the eastern regions, principaly centered around Dnipropetrovsk, to China for 50 years. That a deal is made is not disputed, but the exact nature of the deal is still rather obscured. What is important to realise is that a large amount of capital and potential capital in Ukraine is in the eastern and southern regions, the regions with the Russian speakers, the regions with factories, such as Antonov, producing goods almost only for the Russian market. The EU has said, seperately, that Ukraine-Russia trading agreements will not be affected, but the actual legal document does not say so. this is why EU is throwing out chaff in an attempt to distract from some bad outcomes. If this EU deal ever happens, then pain will be felt were some of the population have gullibly expected joy. This could lead to a worse political situation than we have now and, trying not to be too cynical, could be a desired result for those who do not have the interests of Ukraine or it's people at heart, but rather want to see an opportunity to split the country, knowing that it will not be possible to get the east and Crimea, but instead getting the western regions, which may put NATO on, or close to the Dnieper. Your question was about the economic consequences for the Ukranian people, but this is actually a geopolitical issue with potentially disasterous consequences.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[bmk1245]

questionmark has answered correctly, and that will surprise him for me to say so, but I believe in honesty, not games, and if something correct is said, then I will acknowledge so. Though it is not the full picture... Having read all 906 pages of the agreement and other documentation, it is clear that Ukraine, even in the best of circumstances, would not become a full member of the EU for 15 years. The agreement goes beyond trade, it injects the EU into every area of life, education, sport, tourism, culture, multi-culturalism, minorities and on and on. This is not trade, this is political, and much of what is in the document, aside from very very many pages of definitions and names of produce, wine, cheese etc, it contains much of the elements of the EU that a substantial number of the populations of current member states do not like, the UK being chief amongst them. So Ukraine would have all the garbage, but without actually being a member and have a vote on any of these matters that will effect Ukraine. A further point, so far not covered in this thread, is the China-Ukraine land deal, which seems to rent 5% of land in the eastern regions, principaly centered around Dnipropetrovsk, to China for 50 years. That a deal is made is not disputed, but the exact nature of the deal is still rather obscured. What is important to realise is that a large amount of capital and potential capital in Ukraine is in the eastern and southern regions, the regions with the Russian speakers, the regions with factories, such as Antonov, producing goods almost only for the Russian market. The EU has said, seperately, that Ukraine-Russia trading agreements will not be affected, but the actual legal document does not say so. this is why EU is throwing out chaff in an attempt to distract from some bad outcomes. If this EU deal ever happens, then pain will be felt were some of the population have gullibly expected joy. This could lead to a worse political situation than we have now and, trying not to be too cynical, could be a desired result for those who do not have the interests of Ukraine or it's people at heart, but rather want to see an opportunity to split the country, knowing that it will not be possible to get the east and Crimea, but instead getting the western regions, which may put NATO on, or close to the Dnieper. Your question was about the economic consequences for the Ukranian people, but this is actually a geopolitical issue with potentially disasterous consequences.

Let me ask you: where "friendly" Russia was year/two/three years ago with "cheap" gas and pack of money for Ukraine?When Ukraine was on the verge to sign docs (which weren't prepared in one night; that was lengthy process) with EU, Putin, suddenly, decided to cut one third on the gas price. So much for "friendliness"...

[stevewinn]

anyone else finding the timing of all this a little bit suspicious. what i mean is Russia is hosting the winter Olympics will this limit Russias position / response on the Ukrainian issue.surely if you was going to lessen Russian influence you'd do it now. perfect timing. No?

[Kaa-Tzik]

anyone else finding the timing of all this a little bit suspicious. what i mean is Russia is hosting the winter Olympics will this limit Russias position / response on the Ukrainian issue.surely if you was going to lessen Russian influence you'd do it now. perfect timing. No?

This has not gone unoticed.... Even to today I have seen over several media outlets the Olympics being dragged into the Moscow school shooting today. They don't directly say the two are linked, as clearly the shooting is by a psychologically ill teen, not any terrorists, but they mention that it just happens so close to the Olympics to try to put this idea that the Olympics are "dangerous" in the public's mind. Most will not even realise how the media manipulate them like this. And of course a heap of documentaries all over the place about the "evil" Putin and corruption at Sochi, and "gay" bars and on and on and on. It is simply childish spite, the sort I am subjected to on this thread by a few "spites" or whatever...

[Helen of Annoy]

anyone else finding the timing of all this a little bit suspicious. what i mean is Russia is hosting the winter Olympics will this limit Russias position / response on the Ukrainian issue.surely if you was going to lessen Russian influence you'd do it now. perfect timing. No?

Timing in Ukraine depends on pro-Russian president. Who was hiding in the hospital for the last few days.

And his timing is dictated from Moscow.

If it was Ukrainian timing, it would be all over by now. Two months ago.

[+and-then]

http://news.yahoo.com/us-press-ukraine-end-crisis-russia-bailout-warning-085422744.html

I thought this was a bit ominous. I'd like to see his proofs. If it's real then I have no doubt he has proofs - our "secret" activities are pretty feckless these days

[+and-then]

If they do intervene without clearly producing proof of US intervention then I hope the world sanctions them. This is outrageous.

[Kaa-Tzik]

And it moves on, and spirals downwards further. This is the youtube video of the infamous phone call between US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland to US ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt. It is at 3:05 that she makes the obscene remark that shows what US thinks of EU, and of course through the entire conversation we see how the US is deciding for the Ukranian people who their next government will be. I told you so.....

Edited February 7, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

If they do intervene without clearly producing proof of US intervention then I hope the world sanctions them. This is outrageous.

The video above rather points to the accusations being far more likely to be true than not. We have seen the US and EU politicians actually in Kiev calling for revolution, they call for it from their own countries, and now we know that even the composition on any new government in Kiev is decided in Washington. All the Russophobes and ignorant fleas, see several posts above for that, totaly ignore the outrageous things EU and US politicians say and rant on about how all the bad things are controlled by Putin from behind the scenes. The world sees McCain and Ashton in Kiev and is not fooled by the childish distraction techniques of their fellow politicians and the shameless western media. Now we actually get a chance to see behind the scenes, and it is not pretty, and it damns, not Americans per se, but a government they should be profoundly ashamed of.

[Kaa-Tzik]

If they do intervene without clearly producing proof of US intervention then I hope the world sanctions them. This is outrageous.

Further. Quotes appearing about Russia saying it will send troops into Ukraine, come not from Russia, but from a certain Kateryna Chorna, one of the "protestors" in Kiev. But of course sections of the western media will report her nonsense as fact and as credible. This is so transparent and childish it is almost unbelievable, yet will be soaked up by those who only get their news from BBC, Fox etc as they will only be told the story from one side, and will never think to question what and why they are being told certain things. Odd, well not really, that western press is so full of this about Russia, yet ignores any possibility of Polish Troops entering western Ukraine to "protect" the people there. The mask has dropped, the duplicity and scheming of the US in this outrageous interference in a country, that unlike Russia, it has not one shred of interest in, other than neo-colonial and the making of $, and now it is clearly seen, has no interest in the people of Ukraine. I every time I now hear a US politician talking about "rights" and "democracy", then I will vomit and then laugh, long and loud.

I'm sure they will soon be posts appearing that are either very ignorant and bizarre, guess by who, or crap about how it must have been Putin bribing Nuland to say what she did, as these people are, and have been from the very beginning, very desperate to chuck out the biggest smokescreen ever seen, people who support viloent riots and foreign governments fomenting revolution in Ukraine. Truth always comes out in the end, and here we are....

[Kelsier]

Where the all oil gone?

[Kaa-Tzik]

ground in still all?

?

[Mr.United_Nations]

Further. Quotes appearing about Russia saying it will send troops into Ukraine, come not from Russia, but from a certain Kateryna Chorna, one of the "protestors" in Kiev. But of course sections of the western media will report her nonsense as fact and as credible. This is so transparent and childish it is almost unbelievable, yet will be soaked up by those who only get their news from BBC, Fox etc as they will only be told the story from one side, and will never think to question what and why they are being told certain things. Odd, well not really, that western press is so full of this about Russia, yet ignores any possibility of Polish Troops entering western Ukraine to "protect" the people there. The mask has dropped, the duplicity and scheming of the US in this outrageous interference in a country, that unlike Russia, it has not one shred of interest in, other than neo-colonial and the making of $, and now it is clearly seen, has no interest in the people of Ukraine. I every time I now hear a US politician talking about "rights" and "democracy", then I will vomit and then laugh, long and loud.

I'm sure they will soon be posts appearing that are either very ignorant and bizarre, guess by who, or crap about how it must have been Putin bribing Nuland to say what she did, as these people are, and have been from the very beginning, very desperate to chuck out the biggest smokescreen ever seen, people who support viloent riots and foreign governments fomenting revolution in Ukraine. Truth always comes out in the end, and here we are....

Because Ukraine didnt come from Poland? adn actually the BBC have reported both sides of the story and also how much racism is their in Russia? quite alot and rights...hmmm Russia is prety poor on that i think everyone will agree, some of its 3rd world standards

[Kelsier]

Kaa-Tzik, media are called that way because they are standing in the middle between you and the real information. And the way the media works is that there must be bad guys and good guys. It‘s obvious that Russians would always be notorious evil sons of Dracula - that evil eastern dude, nevermind that he‘s romanian. Imagine the truth in media *makes a move with hand through air, revealing picture of harmony* *suddenly stops*

Media take real info and than bake that info in ovens with temperature set for certain people so that they can easier chew that information. And when someone says: "Hey, that country has free will over it‘s destiny", it must be anti-western propaganda...

It‘s certainly not democratic to interfere in internal afairs of another country or forcing "democracy" with riots and bombing here and there.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Kaa-Tzik, media are called that way because they are standing in the middle between you and the real information. And the way the media works is that there must be bad guys and good guys. It‘s obvious that Russians would always be notorious evil sons of Dracula - that evil eastern dude, nevermind that he‘s romanian. Imagine the truth in media *makes a move with hand through air, revealing picture of harmony* *suddenly stops*

Media take real info and than bake that info in ovens with temperature set for certain people so that they can easier chew that information. And when someone says: "Hey, that country has free will over it‘s destiny", it must be anti-western propaganda...

It‘s certainly not democratic to interfere in internal afairs of another country or forcing "democracy" with riots and bombing here and there.

And the western politicians in Kiev calling for regime change, the now exposed behind the scenes of the Americans in deciding for Ukranians what their government will be will be, the reality of the fascists in Lvov and other places, this all fantasy.....

[Indiogene]

The protests turned violent in the Ukraine last month were pro-western and wanted a closer relationship with the European Union. I seen the footage on RT, the news channel based in Russia...and heard the Russian POV on this matter. The Russian government wants to reinstall a Soviet-era satellite state system and fears the US' growing influence in the former USSR republics. During the War in Iraq and our presence in Afghanistan, the US had troops in bases throughout Central Asia and the Caucasus region. Russia wants to exert influence over Ukraine and encourages the current Ukrainian regime to stomp out any opposition towards Putin and Russia. I'm fully aware of the neo-Fascist presence in Ukraine are involved in the violent protests, however most Ukrainians aren't for the fascists and ultra-nationalists whose goals oppose democracy. Have the Ukrainian people decide their future without Russian leaders, fascists or anyone else FTM to promote democracy fair and square.

[Kaa-Tzik]

The protests turned violent in the Ukraine last month were pro-western and wanted a closer relationship with the European Union. I seen the footage on RT, the news channel based in Russia...and heard the Russian POV on this matter. The Russian government wants to reinstall a Soviet-era satellite state system and fears the US' growing influence in the former USSR republics. During the War in Iraq and our presence in Afghanistan, the US had troops in bases throughout Central Asia and the Caucasus region. Russia wants to exert influence over Ukraine and encourages the current Ukrainian regime to stomp out any opposition towards Putin and Russia. I'm fully aware of the neo-Fascist presence in Ukraine are involved in the violent protests, however most Ukrainians aren't for the fascists and ultra-nationalists whose goals oppose democracy. Have the Ukrainian people decide their future without Russian leaders, fascists or anyone else FTM to promote democracy fair and square.

I agree generally with most of your post, though wanting to "stomp out" anti Putin/Russia opposition is exagerating somewhat. I mentioned further up this thread about how would America react to Russian Army on it's borders with Canada and Mexico. Is it not reasonable to be concerned if US Army was along the Dnieper, or even in Eastern Donbass and Crimea. When I mention this aspect, or why US has to have hundreds of overseas bases and Russia only one, there is silence or bizarre nonsense.

On what I bolded in your post. This is of course true, and I have said this time and again here. If Russia wanted Ukraine as a quiet client state, then that would be obvious, but it is not. On the other hand, the desire of the West to tell Ukranians what government they should have is naked and ugly. I believe, and have stated here, that Ukranians should decide their own future, yet it seems odd that the West says this future must be in EU/NATO, and vague threats are issued for non compliance. Not one poster here can show any statement from Russia that demands anything from Ukraine, all that happens is a smokescreen appears and personal attacks from the usual ........