Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[Helen of Annoy]

Play nice, Kaa-Tzik.

More-less extreme right exists anywhere. It’s not an argument against the peaceful majority. You have Zhirinovsky in Duma and that's where I'll stop. Note that I stopped where I could have said a lot.

It’s highly unlikely Right Sector could become more than fringe party that attracts mostly angry youth. It was Yanukovich, the oppression and violence he caused that turned most of these young people to the more extreme options.

It’s the same in Russia or in my place.

After all, Right Sector and Putin share the same views on homosexuality, for example, and similar views on EU.

No jobs, no money, no security, no future, no hope, no nothing. If on top of it all you see people shot in street, of course your tolerance will be gone.

75 dead confirmed, the number is feared to be even greater. State treasury emptied by Yanukovich. You bet that makes people angry. Still, there are perfectly civil, democratic options that have major roles in Ukrainian political life. (Since Yanukovich is gone, of course.)

And stop blackening the memory of Stepan Bandera. He had his faults but he was not a monster USSR version of history claims he was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[Kaa-Tzik]

Play nice, Kaa-Tzik.

More-less extreme right exists anywhere. It’s not an argument against the peaceful majority. You have Zhirinovsky in Duma and that's where I'll stop. Note that I stopped where I could have said a lot.

It’s highly unlikely Right Sector could become more than fringe party that attracts mostly angry youth. It was Yanukovich, the oppression and violence he caused that turned most of these young people to the more extreme options.

It’s the same in Russia or in my place.

After all, Right Sector and Putin share the same views on homosexuality, for example, and similar views on EU.

No jobs, no money, no security, no future, no hope, no nothing. If on top of it all you see people shot in street, of course your tolerance will be gone.

75 dead confirmed, the number is feared to be even greater. State treasury emptied by Yanukovich. You bet that makes people angry. Still, there are perfectly civil, democratic options that have major roles in Ukrainian political life. (Since Yanukovich is gone, of course.)

And stop blackening the memory of Stepan Bandera. He had his faults but he was not a monster USSR version of history claims he was.

http://en.wikipedia..../Stepan_Bandera

Your logic, in most of your posts, is to essentialy say that if any country has anything bad in it's past, or maniacs in it's own country, then it can never comment on any other country. On that basis nobody can comment on anything. But it's an excuse to turn any discussion of Ukraine into a hate fest against Russia, Putin, USSR, Stalin, and who knows, to blame Russia for global warming, or cooling, or anything....

Zhirinovsky has no power and is a clown, everybody knows that. On the other hand, Oleg Tyagnibok is not a clown, he is a serious politician and not a one man band. He, and members of his party, now have real power. To try to conflate Tyagnibok with Putin over an issue such as homosexuality, and thus try to make them seem the same, is ridiculous. Look at the far worse hatred that exists against gays in America, Africa and Muslim countries first, were gays are killed by the state. Best to stop these ridiculous comparisons I think because everything can be turned back, and they simply cloud the issues.

Of these people shot in Kiev, how many were police?, yet this total number of deaths is reported as if all were Obama's "peaceful protestors". And it still seems that the first shots were fired by right sector snipers located on roof of Conservatory. It is also conveniently forgotten that the events of last week exploded when police were actually beginning preperations to leave as it was thought the "peaceful protestors" had made a deal to leave as well. But what happens, they without warning or provocation attempt to storm parliament, then, when unsucessful, storm offices of Party of Regions, beating the office workers. It was while police were trying to stop them that they came under fire from the snipers, and the rest is history, and the truth will eventually come out. And in all these posts, nobody accepts that if these, well, in reality, revolutionaries, had acted this way in any other country, then they would have been put down with far more deadly force than was eventually used against them. If such happened in Washington, if an armed revolutionary mob had stormed the Capitol and were trying to storm Whitehouse, how much firepower would have been used against them, how many deaths, hundreds, thousands. Those dead revolutionaries knew what they were doing. They were not "oppressed" ordinary Ukranians, they were revolutionaries who want to shed Russian blood, and I shed no crocodile tears for such revolutionaries.

Stepan Bandera was criminal scum, and this from the very wiki article you linked to.

"Moskali, Poles, Jews are hostile to us must be exterminated in this struggle, especially those who would resist our regime: deport them to their own lands, importantly: destroy their intelligentsia that may be in the positions of power ... Jews must be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage, those who are deemed necessary may only work with an overseer... Jewish assimilation is not possible."

And while not commited by Bandera's men, but pertinent because of the background of western Ukraine and to show the hate some of them are filled with, let's not forget the Volhynia massacres committed by the UPA, from which right sektor likes to claim ancestry. When I call these people fascists, it is not a lie or even an insult, it is simply the truth of what they are, of what their political ideology is, fascist.

http://en.wikipedia....les_in_Volhynia

Edited February 25, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

Your logic, in most of your posts, is to essentialy say that if any country has anything bad in it's past, or maniacs in it's own country, then it can never comment on any other country. On that basis nobody can comment on anything. But it's an excuse to turn any discussion of Ukraine into a hate fest against Russia, Putin, USSR, Stalin, and who knows, to blame Russia for global warming, or cooling, or anything....

No, that’s your logic.

At least we agree there are maniacs in any country. The difference is if there are maniacs in power or only in the historic and political closets.

Zhirinovsky has no power and is a clown, everybody knows that. On the other hand, Oleg Tyagnibok is not a clown, he is a serious politician and not a one man band. He, and members of his party, now have real power. To try to conflate Tyagnibok with Putin over an issue such as homosexuality, and thus try to make them seem the same, is ridiculous. Look at the far worse hatred that exists against gays in America, Africa and Muslim countries first, were gays are killed by the state. Best to stop these ridiculous comparisons I think because everything can be turned back, and they simply cloud the issues.

It’s the question now will it be Klitschko or Tymoshenko, not Tyagnibok. Of course his party will have seats in Rada if it wins enough votes. Why wouldn’t it be? Who are you or me to froth about that? We both have our own maniacs in our respective Duma and Sabor.

What we can do is not vote for maniacs if we prefer moderate people making decisions.

Of these people shot in Kiev, how many were police?, yet this total number of deaths is reported as if all were Obama's "peaceful protestors". And it still seems that the first shots were fired by right sector snipers located on roof of Conservatory. It is also conveniently forgotten that the events of last week exploded when police were actually beginning preperations to leave as it was thought the "peaceful protestors" had made a deal to leave as well. But what happens, they without warning or provocation attempt to storm parliament, then, when unsucessful, storm offices of Party of Regions, beating the office workers. It was while police were trying to stop them that they came under fire from the snipers, and the rest is history, and the truth will eventually come out. And in all these posts, nobody accepts that if these, well, in reality, revolutionaries, had acted this way in any other country, then they would have been put down with far more deadly force than was eventually used against them. If such happened in Washington, if an armed revolutionary mob had stormed the Capitol and were trying to storm Whitehouse, how much firepower would have been used against them, how many deaths, hundreds, thousands. Those dead revolutionaries knew what they were doing. They were not "oppressed" ordinary Ukranians, they were revolutionaries who want to shed Russian blood, and I shed no crocodile tears for such revolutionaries.

Reports vary from 70 to 88 civilian victims confirmed so far. It’s feared the number will be more than 100 in the end. I have no exact number, but I believe there could be almost 20 policemen dead. Not bad for civilians with bats and stones. In self-defence, mind you.

You don’t know how many of them had Russian blood too in them, so would you kindly shut up about thirst for exclusively Russian blood. Right now, I want to give you a bloody nose, but not because you’re Russian but because you’re showing no sympathy for dead brothers.

Ukrainian and Russian church bells tolled to warn of danger of murders of brothers before this horror happened, learn from Christians. I can’t believe I just said that. But in this mess, priests were useful and they did what priests should do – they tried to stop bloodshed and they acted as security. Hatopus off!

I don’t care right now what if such happened in Washington, because that if hasn’t happened but it did damn happen in Ukraine.

Firsts shots, huh?

Documents were recovered (some say from Dnieper river) that reveal Yanukovich's plan was to send 20,000 policemen and 2,000 “Berkuts” with armoured vehicles to circle the Maidan square and open fire at the protestors with intention to kill as many of them as possible.

EuroMaidan gathers tens of thousands at all times. I guess Yanukovich thought unarmed people will be easy targets.

Snipers took down more than 70 people, civilians, in their own streets. Most victims were young people. Massacre in full planned extend didn’t happen because the policemen, except the sniper unit, had conscience or at least common sense that made them unwilling to commit such obvious crime. Former president obviously had no conscience or common sense.

Some of the policemen kneeled publicly before the people, asking forgiveness.

It will be forgiven eventually, I speak from my own Croatian experience, but hardly ever forgotten.

Stepan Bandera was criminal scum, and this from the very wiki article you linked to.

And while not commited by Bandera's men, but pertinent because of the background of western Ukraine and to show the hate some of them are filled with, let's not forget the Volhynia massacres committed by the UPA, from which right sektor likes to claim ancestry. When I call these people fascists, it is not a lie or even an insult, it is simply the truth of what they are, of what their political ideology is, fascist.

http://en.wikipedia....les_in_Volhynia

Cherry pick all you want, but he had to fight both Hitler and Stalin at the same time.

And since we’re cherry picking, let me take part too:

In 1934 hundreds of Ukrainian writers, intellectuals and cultural workers were arrested and executed in the attempt to eradicate all vestiges of Ukrainian nationalism in Art. The purges continued into 1938. Blind Ukrainian street musicians were also gathered in Kharkiv and murdered by the NKVD.^[20] In January 1935 the capital of the Ukrainian SSR was moved from Kharkiv to Kiev.

During April and May 1940 about 3,800 Polish prisoners of Starobelsk camp were executed in the Kharkiv NKVD building, later secretly buried on the grounds of an NKVD pansionat in Pyatykhatky forest (part of the Katyn massacre) on the outskirts of Kharkiv.^[21] The site also contains the numerous bodies of Ukrainian cultural workers who were arrested and shot in the 1937–38 Stalinist purges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv

What was the difference between Nazis and soviets? The longer time soviets had to murder more people.

[bmk1245]

Instead of making petty attacks on me and using the crisis in Ukraine as yet another excuse to attack Russia, and your comments are very thinly disguised hate speech, again, perhaps you could bother to address the OP.

Besides, if you want to sling mud and be petty, well, look at this. It may be from 1931, but it still happened. Some people from those times are still alive, and others in the various Baltic states even today are "non-citizens". Perhaps you may have some comments about the reports of a Synagogue in Ukraine being attacked by the banderas, perhaps you have some contorted "logic" to excuse that happening.....

Link, in English, about the treatment of Jews in Lithuania in 1931, and pertinant to the current crisis in Ukraine as Svoboda is a party that hates Jews so much that they roam about with "Kill Kikes" written on their shirts.

http://www.jta.org/1...s-employees-who

Since we dig so deeply, I'll dig even deeper; here is one "fun" fact:

With the onset of the WWI, Russian government suspected Jews of treason and support of the enemy, so at the beginning of May of 1915 expulsion of the Jews from Kaunas guberniya started and about 150 000 of them were forcibly evacuated to Poltava, Jekaterinoslav and other guberniyas.

(good old 'v dobrovolno prinudytelnom poriadke' so to speak; link)

BTW, you will find there (in virtual exhibition) some other interesting docs, for example taxation for wearing yarmulkes (kippahs), and other...

And I do not deny antisemitism that existed back then, nor exists now in Lithuania.

As for "non citizens" in Baltic states: when Latvia joined EU (in 2004), application for citizenship (and consequential citizenship) skyrocketed (wonder why). Others, who are too lazy (or too arrogant) to learn Latvian, are kept on the short leash by Russia (but we already discussed that, didn't we?)

[questionmark]

And in today's LA Times:

[+and-then]

Putin is calling an alert of the troops in western Russia. 150,000 troops who will drill (hopefully) and pose aggressively for the Ukrainians. What a crap storm this will be if he decides to actually roll the tanks. I think he will avoid it if possible but I think he will NOT give up Ukraine. I wonder if there will be an insurgency in the aftermath?

[stevewinn]

Putin is calling an alert of the troops in western Russia. 150,000 troops who will drill (hopefully) and pose aggressively for the Ukrainians. What a crap storm this will be if he decides to actually roll the tanks. I think he will avoid it if possible but I think he will NOT give up Ukraine. I wonder if there will be an insurgency in the aftermath?

no way will Russia just leave the Crimea to the EU/West. this is what its all about for the West and the EU. annex the Crimean. unlike we see with annexations in previous centuries through war the EU is doing it with soft power of politics and influence. and i love the way the West/EU stand by the podium talking the talk, and on the other hand Russia - actions speak louder than words and mobilises 150,000 troops. Russia will no doubt roll into Crimea, no-way will they give up Sevastopol, the black sea region.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26377980

[keithisco]

no way will Russia just leave the Crimea to the EU/West. this is what its all about for the West and the EU. annex the Crimean. unlike we see with annexations in previous centuries through war the EU is doing it with soft power of politics and influence. and i love the way the West/EU stand by the podium talking the talk, and on the other hand Russia - actions speak louder than words and mobilises 150,000 troops. Russia will no doubt roll into Crimea, no-way will they give up Sevastopol, the black sea region.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-26377980

The Ukraine (including Crimea) has been independent from Russia for 23 years. The agreement to allow Russia to maintain its Baltic fleet in the crimea has never been in doubt, so IMO, this is just Sabre Rattling from Russia. Russia does not own Sevastopol and has never owned it (The USSR was a different Political entity).

The West and EU talk the talk, because they do not have any forces near to Ukraine, which is a good thing.

The ousted President Yanukovych was nothing more than a tyrant disposed towards nepotism and self - aggrandisement, which is being shown to be true as his attempts at destroying Financial Dealings are bringing to light.

Russia has said today that it wants to work with the west to alleviate Ukraine's dire financial predicament which informs me that they have no stomach for war, and the military exercises are nothing more than they seem.

[Helen of Annoy]

The West and the EU don’t need Crimea. They have all the access to Black Sea they may need, via Bulgaria and Romania. The West also doesn’t have to worry about Bosphorus and Dardanelle, by the way.

Crimea has to stay in Ukraine because that’s what original local population, Ukrainians, Tatars and probably significant portion of ethnic Russians want. If Ukraine is liberated from excessive Russian domination, probably even more Crimean Tatars will come back to their home land, from which soviet Russia forcefully relocated them.

And they won’t vote for new Russian empire and its puppets.

Of course, Russians who came to work in and for Soviet... err... Russian base would prefer Crimea within Russia, for purely practical besides their chauvinist reasons.

Russia doesn’t really need Crimea either. It’s the Russian expansionism that needs Crimean ports so they can keep their image of former superpower by making trips to Syria where they are wasting resources on a dictator who managed to radicalize the population beyond repair.

EU and Ukraine keep repeating they are interested in peaceful solution for all Ukrainian, including Crimean ports, issues.

Russia is flexing, because that’s how they negotiate, but they need EU more than EU needs Russia. Not to elaborate on the obvious.

So Russia badly wants Crimean ports that are not important to EU or Ukraine. Ukraine wants, naturally, territorial integrity but I don’t remember anyone protesting against naval base lease.

Lease being the key word here.

There’s the possibility of actual war, monstrous one, but there’s also very realistic possibility of successful negotiations. It all depends on sanity of key figures.

The trouble is that certain key figure doesn’t want other parts of renewed Russian empire get any ideas of freedom or god forbid democracy. Also, the marina rent is an issue. Rich people usually expect free stuff. Not to digress too far by explaining why it is so.

In short, that key figure wants it to look like it was taken by force, even if it will be negotiated.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Mr.United_Nations]

Doesn't look like talks, more action than words so far

[bmk1245]

The West and the EU don’t need Crimea. They have all the access to Black Sea they may need, via Bulgaria and Romania. The West also doesn’t have to worry about Bosphorus and Dardanelle, by the way.

Crimea has to stay in Ukraine because that’s what original local population, Ukrainians, Tatars and probably significant portion of ethnic Russians want. If Ukraine is liberated from excessive Russian domination, probably even more Crimean Tatars will come back to their home land, from which soviet Russia forcefully relocated them.

And they won’t vote for new Russian empire and its puppets.

ants

With all due respect, but descendants of Russians are 60% of Crimea population. But already same Great Nation descendants are demanding apology from Tatars, who were against separation,.. Boomer.... Just wait when Tatars will start to demand their rights and how "oh so great Nation" will respond.

[Helen of Annoy]

With all due respect, but descendants of Russians are 60% of Crimea population. But already same Great Nation descendants are demanding apology from Tatars, who were against separation,.. Boomer.... Just wait when Tatars will start to demand their rights and how "oh so great Nation" will respond.

That’s why I said original local population.

USSR ethnic engineering is what Russian territorial demands today are based on.

I have a feeling that 58% hasn’t got the hive mind or the true separatist zeal. There are less than 20% Tatars and their protest gathered far more people than pro-Russian protest. Obviously, Tatars are far more motivated.

Which won’t be a good news tomorrow, but today it is.

[bmk1245]

That’s why I said original local population.[...]

"Original" population is - 60% "russians" plus russified ukrainians/back home tatars. Whats the "original"?

Tatars (minority) said "no" to separation? Tatars are fascists. Simple. If ukrainians/tatars will start to push "minority" demands in Crimea (the way Russians pushing their rights in post USSR countries), same "internationalist" crowd will burn them on the pretense of saving peace (while infact - "How dare you not knowing Russian language").

Biggest problem is - Russian chauvinism.

[spud the mackem]

The problem with Russia going in is when the U.S.S.R split up,various satellite states were left with various commodities such as Nuclear weapons, Submarines and other Military goodies, By "Helping" Ukraine, Russia may see a way of getting back some of the items that they couldn't transfer out at the time of the split up.

[Helen of Annoy]

"Original" population is - 60% "russians" plus russified ukrainians/back home tatars. Whats the "original"?

Tatars (minority) said "no" to separation? Tatars are fascists. Simple. If ukrainians/tatars will start to push "minority" demands in Crimea (the way Russians pushing their rights in post USSR countries), same "internationalist" crowd will burn them on the pretense of saving peace (while infact - "How dare you not knowing Russian language").

Biggest problem is - Russian chauvinism.

There’s no chance of returning to the original ethnic distribution and by original I mean before soviet ethnic engineering. What can and should be done is giving every nation its equal rights.

So, yes, the biggest problem is Russian chauvinism, armed and arrogant. Until the day they realise they can’t **** forever on everyone else’s head, there will be too much damage done in the name of future Russian empire.

The problem with Russia going in is when the U.S.S.R split up,various satellite states were left with various commodities such as Nuclear weapons, Submarines and other Military goodies, By "Helping" Ukraine, Russia may see a way of getting back some of the items that they couldn't transfer out at the time of the split up.

Ukraine never said they wouldn't keep hosting Russian Black Sea fleet. But there's more than port or the way it will be leased in question here, Putin obviously wants to enter the history as the one who brought Russia back to her imperial status, the one who made Russia great again.

Ukraine did return the nukes to Russia and in 1994, I think, treaty was signed in which USA, Russia and someone else (**** me but I can’t remember who else ) guaranteed Ukrainian sovereignty and integrity in return.

It’s time for that treaty to be activated or for Russia to admit their written promises are worthless.

Russia wants Ukraine because of pipelines first, chauvinism second and agriculture and industry third.

They can’t build pipelines around Ukraine overnight, Crimea is not really self-sustainable region etc etc so this is more complicated than it seems and it will only become more complicated in the next few weeks.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[stevewinn]

The Ukraine (including Crimea) has been independent from Russia for 23 years. The agreement to allow Russia to maintain its Baltic fleet in the crimea has never been in doubt, so IMO, this is just Sabre Rattling from Russia. Russia does not own Sevastopol and has never owned it (The USSR was a different Political entity).

The West and EU talk the talk, because they do not have any forces near to Ukraine, which is a good thing.

The ousted President Yanukovych was nothing more than a tyrant disposed towards nepotism and self - aggrandisement, which is being shown to be true as his attempts at destroying Financial Dealings are bringing to light.

Russia has said today that it wants to work with the west to alleviate Ukraine's dire financial predicament which informs me that they have no stomach for war, and the military exercises are nothing more than they seem.

well i reckon its bubbling along nicely, the EU trying to spread its sphere of influence and softly softly approach of pulling Ukraine away from Russia's sphere of influence as ended in political turmoil and bankruptcy. The EU's finger prints are all over this mess. they misjudged the whole situation, the EU lacking the political courage and will, failing to back their political ambitions with the money needed to get the job done as resulted in a standoff. The EU will tie itself in knots insisting someone goes in to take care of the worsening situation as it goes into meltdown while not committing anything of it's own forces and crying that they should have let the EU have it's own military. or start hoping that the UN, NATO or the USA step in to sort the mess out, trouble is the Russians even if the crimean isn't Russian still hold the territory of strategic importance and we can see by their actions this is true. with a limp wristed EU struggling, we'll see Russia step in calm the situation. slap the EU and tell them to get back in their box. and the EU will have no choice but to climb back in the box and close the lid. learning a valuable lesson in the process.

Its now clear aswell that the Ukrainian Economy is going to collapse and the EU doesn't have the Funds to prop it up. Now we see why the EU agreement wasn't signed and why the promise of Russian money and influence seen the ousted president ditch the EU agreement in favour of Russia.

Russia should steam 150,000 across the border and see what the USA reaction is Obama yet again as leader of the 'free world' on the podium talking about there being costs for any Military intervention in Ukraine. Obama knows the EU dont have the stomach needed.

Edited March 1, 2014 by stevewinn

[Helen of Annoy]

well i reckon its bubbling along nicely, the EU trying to spread its sphere of influence and softly softly approach of pulling Ukraine away from Russia's sphere of influence as ended in political turmoil and bankruptcy. The EU's finger prints are all over this mess. they misjudged the whole situation, the EU lacking the political courage and will, failing to back their political ambitions with the money needed to get the job done as resulted in a standoff. The EU will tie itself in knots insisting someone goes in to take care of the worsening situation as it goes into meltdown while not committing anything of it's own forces and crying that they should have let the EU have it's own military. or start hoping that the UN, NATO or the USA step in to sort the mess out, trouble is the Russians even if the crimean isn't Russian still hold the territory of strategic importance and we can see by their actions this is true. with a limp wristed EU struggling, we'll see Russia step in calm the situation. slap the EU and tell them to get back in their box. and the EU will have no choice but to climb back in the box and close the lid. learning a valuable lesson in the process.

Its now clear aswell that the Ukrainian Economy is going to collapse and the EU doesn't have the Funds to prop it up. Now we see why the EU agreement wasn't signed and why the promise of Russian money and influence seen the ousted president ditch the EU agreement in favour of Russia.

Russia should steam 150,000 across the border and see what the USA reaction is Obama yet again as leader of the 'free world' on the podium talking about there being costs for any Military intervention in Ukraine. Obama knows the EU dont have the stomach needed.

There’s no need for EU to spread its influence through Europe. Because European is the only natural influence that could exist in Europe, all others are temporary and won’t end well. As it was seen since 1990s.

Russia by her own imperialist choice excluded herself from Europe, but that is another thing that won’t last forever.

Ukraine is bankrupt because of (less important) general trend of killing production anywhere except in China and (the key reason) because Russia keeps siphoning money out of it, which was Yanukovich’s main job while he was the president. At least 70 billion dollars disappeared from Ukraine during his rule.

This is not military matter. Just because Russia doesn’t know anything else but to barge in the areas they wish were theirs, doesn’t mean EU should do the same. In fact, the more you look at Russians the more you’re certain that’s not how you build lasting society, economy included.

Why do you people keep dragging Obama into this?

Again, this is not military or American issue. This is something Europe can deal with. Europe directly makes 50% of Russian income by buying her gas and oil. Just imagining Russia turning to China in search of new milking cow makes me tear with laughter.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[stevewinn]

There’s no need for EU to spread its influence through Europe. Because European is the only natural influence that could exist in Europe, all others are temporary and won’t end well. As it was seen since 1990s.

Russia by her own imperialist choice excluded herself from Europe, but that is another thing that won’t last forever.

Ukraine is bankrupt because of (less important) general trend of killing production anywhere except in China and (the key reason) because Russia keeps siphoning money out of it, which was Yanukovich’s main job while he was the president. At least 70 billion dollars disappeared from Ukraine during his rule.

This is not military matter. Just because Russia doesn’t know anything else but to barge in the areas they wish were theirs, doesn’t mean EU should do the same. In fact, the more you look at Russians the more you’re certain that’s not how you build lasting society, economy included.

Why do you people keep dragging Obama into this?

Again, this is not military or American issue. This is something Europe can deal with. Europe directly makes 50% of Russian income by buying her gas and oil. Just imagining Russia turning to China in search of new milking cow makes me tear with laughter.

I doubt Europe can deal with it, infact i know they cannot deal with it - as we have seen from the outset, bit late for the EU now dont you think, the EU played its hand when in the early days it flew in the likes of Cathy Aston etc.. to walk amongst the protesters, and from that point on things have went from bad to worse. and we see where were at right now, and you still believe the EU can save the day. no- its to far gone, the only way this will be resolved is the USA/UN & Russia. with Russia playing the prominent role. the clear message to the EU is do not get involved in things they cannot finish. as for Russian Gas, Russia can turn the taps on/off at a time of her choosing. we've seen it in the past.

As for Obama havent you been keeping up. you cannot turn the NEWS on without the words BREAKING NEWS flashing across the bottom of the screen. leading you think think ****, something serious has happened only to find Obama as spoken. and when he warns against military intervention saying -about 'there being a cost for any Military intervention in Ukraine' you simply cannot ignore that. plus the USA have been playing a leading throughout, remember the early days releasing funds to support the protesters, Vicky Nuland flown in along with others, holding talks, and you ask why Obama is being mentioned. its pretty clear, the US are at the Party.

[Helen of Annoy]

I doubt Europe can deal with it, infact i know they cannot deal with it - as we have seen from the outset, bit late for the EU now dont you think, the EU played its hand when in the early days it flew in the likes of Cathy Aston etc.. to walk amongst the protesters, and from that point on things have went from bad to worse. and we see where were at right now, and you still believe the EU can save the day. no- its to far gone, the only way this will be resolved is the USA/UN & Russia. with Russia playing the prominent role. the clear message to the EU is do not get involved in things they cannot finish. as for Russian Gas, Russia can turn the taps on/off at a time of her choosing. we've seen it in the past.

Europe can deal with it, but sadly, I didn’t say it will deal with it.

Too many profiteers and too little true believers, as usual. For some people, disruption of their daily luxurious routine is too high price to pay for sovereignty. And that’s why Russia is able to get away with literal murders.

There’s gas on one end of the pipeline and money on the other. Unsold, gas is worthless. Without EU market, Russia would be back to 17^th century within a month.

I do not wish that on Russians, but that’s the fastest and safest way to stop Russia from expanding over her realistic borders. They wish there was armed conflict, because manpower is the most expendable goods in Russia since ever. They do not wish embargo on their gas and oil because that’s what makes their income and thus their arrogance.

Having Russia invading the neighbourhood and keep buying their gas would be suicidal hypocrisy, obviously.

We’ll see how intelligent is average EU bureaucrat. Russia passed the law that allows annexing of territories after referendums (lol, how democratic).

So if Russia gets away with Ukraine, then Poland and Baltic are next. If they fall, my part of the world is next and if we fall, you are next. By then, the pipelines won’t matter anymore.

So do not doubt Ukraine is where our common future is being decided right now.

As for Obama havent you been keeping up. you cannot turn the NEWS on without the words BREAKING NEWS flashing across the bottom of the screen. leading you think think ****, something serious has happened only to find Obama as spoken. and when he warns against military intervention saying -about 'there being a cost for any Military intervention in Ukraine' you simply cannot ignore that. plus the USA have been playing a leading throughout, remember the early days releasing funds to support the protesters, Vicky Nuland flown in along with others, holding talks, and you ask why Obama is being mentioned. its pretty clear, the US are at the Party.

I simply can’t force myself to care what US is doing lately, since they’re not doing anything lately. Strongly worded something, who ****s whom... they’re taking up the news space and that’s about it. If and when they do something, even counter-productive, then it will make sense to even mention them. Until then, this is between Ukrainian nation and Europe on one side and imperialist Russia on the other.

If someone wants to help, yes, please, do help. If not... **** off, silently. Make your own news.

On the brighter side, there were harder times and everyone in East Europe is descendant of survivors of these even harder times.

An Ukrainian commented on the Crimean situation “when you can’t eat the whole cake, you swallow just a piece of it”. True. But it’s possible to choke on any piece, especially if greed makes you gorge too fast on other people’s cakes.

[spud the mackem]

There’s no chance of returning to the original ethnic distribution and by original I mean before soviet ethnic engineering. What can and should be done is giving every nation its equal rights.

So, yes, the biggest problem is Russian chauvinism, armed and arrogant. Until the day they realise they can’t **** forever on everyone else’s head, there will be too much damage done in the name of future Russian empire.

Ukraine never said they wouldn't keep hosting Russian Black Sea fleet. But there's more than port or the way it will be leased in question here, Putin obviously wants to enter the history as the one who brought Russia back to her imperial status, the one who made Russia great again.

Ukraine did return the nukes to Russia and in 1994, I think, treaty was signed in which USA, Russia and someone else (**** me but I can’t remember who else ) guaranteed Ukrainian sovereignty and integrity in return.

It’s time for that treaty to be activated or for Russia to admit their written promises are worthless.

Russia wants Ukraine because of pipelines first, chauvinism second and agriculture and industry third.

They can’t build pipelines around Ukraine overnight, Crimea is not really self-sustainable region etc etc so this is more complicated than it seems and it will only become more complicated in the next few weeks.

I still think America should keep out of it, instead of trying (and failing) to be the Worlds Policeman, and the U.K is getting a bit tired of American antics as we are expected to back them up when trouble brews up.

[Helen of Annoy]

I still think America should keep out of it, instead of trying (and failing) to be the Worlds Policeman, and the U.K is getting a bit tired of American antics as we are expected to back them up when trouble brews up.

They are keeping out of it. Their expressions of serious concern were not even strongly worded.

Which is fine, Ukraine needs no interventions and I believe they wouldn’t approve of one. They could use western help in form of diplomatic and logistic backup.

[+and-then]

I still think America should keep out of it, instead of trying (and failing) to be the Worlds Policeman, and the U.K is getting a bit tired of American antics as we are expected to back them up when trouble brews up.

Spud I think you'll have ZERO worries on that count. Oby isn't about to do anything that might upset Rooty Poot. He's already been publicly owned by the diminutive Czar once or more... Oby doesn't like being publicly humiliated but he isn't man enough to do anything about it either - thank God!

[Harry_Dresden]

They are keeping out of it. Their expressions of serious concern were not even strongly worded.

Which is fine, Ukraine needs no interventions and I believe they wouldn’t approve of one. They could use western help in form of diplomatic and logistic backup.

Ukraine is being lead in the wrong direction by the EU and America...the reality is that Russia is still a power to be reckoned with... even though it has a dilapidated conventional armed force, it's strength in the Ukraine is in its hydrocarbon exports and in it's huge minority that lives in the eastern and southern Ukraine. The EU and America will have to compromise with the Russians otherwise they will instigate a civil war and separate the nation...and the Ukrainians will have to realise that Russian needs and co=operation cannot just be swept aside for the sake of "democracy."

[questionmark]

Hitler invading Poland lead to WWII. Putin invading Ukraine will lead too ??? I hope it's not WWIII...

Stalin invaded Poland in '39 too... nobody declared war on him for that.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Stalin invaded Poland in '39 too... nobody declared war on him for that.

and then he changed sides because Germany made the worst mistake of all time