Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[Harry_Dresden]

Helen...

Just curious...

In your opinion, does there exist good Russians?

She'll probably say YES, dead ones...lol

[Helen of Annoy]

Helen...

Just curious...

In your opinion, does there exist good Russians?

What kind of idiot assumes nations are composed of good or bad people only?

Of course there are good Russians, and bad ones, and those in between mostly, like in any other nation.

I thought it was clear I was talking about political Russians, professional Russians, not common people that are paying the price - as usual. Oligarch sons won't have to die for their father's profit.

Now you satisfy my curiosity - why is Russian oligarchy more desirable than western corporatism? Or is it only for Ukrainians and the rest of us, folks so far away from you?

[acidhead]

She'll probably say YES, dead ones...lol

That doesn't help anything Harry.

I'm serious.

[bmk1245]

Well for starters the Russian "minority" vote in the last Ukrainian election was completely nullified by the actions of the coup leaders. [...]

What did Yanukovich promised in election campaign? Strategic partnership with EU/US (he didn't kept)! Many more promises on economic issues (he didn't kept). Thats where he got many votes. Where did he got more votes? "Russian language" promises (he fulfilled at some extent). Food for thought, so to speak.

[...] The very first act of these "new" ultra nationalist leaders of Ukraine was to raise the issue of stopping Russian language rights [...]

And that extreme crap was repealed.

[...]and blocking Russian TV and social media... [...]

Ok, thats the issue that touches both sides. Ukraine blocked mainstream Goebbels D.Kiselev propaganda. I've been watching both sides - Kremlin is waaaay ahead of London/Berlin/Paris/Washington/etc etc etc.

As for blocking social media... Russkies are the leaders here as well: Dozhd', Lenta.ru, Navalnyi blog, ej.ru... Hope, they will not close Ekho Moskvy...

[...]. but all that is unimportant since I'm capable of seeing the hipocracy of both sides (just pointing it out) while your incapable of the same. [...]

I see hypocrisy: EU/US express their intentions more or less openly (I admit, less openly than we would crave), while Russia - solely behind the doors.

[...]Instead trusting in what you read and hear on CNN and FOX.

Seriously?!!! Who the hell told you I trust CNN or FOX or BBC? I sift through many for/against sources before making my mind.

[bmk1245]

Yes. I watched live feeds.... from our controlled opposition media... CBC.. CNN.. BBC..ETC.. All with controlled color commentary.

[...]

Meaning - you watched s#!t. If you would had been watching live streams (you know what it means, don't you? not TV channels, in case you still don't get it) on several channels without any commentary, you'd get a bit different picture - not glamorous CNN/BBC "journalism", neither Kremlin's "Goebbelism".

[acidhead]

What kind of idiot assumes nations are composed of good or bad people only?

Of course there are good Russians, and bad ones, and those in between mostly, like in any other nation.

I thought it was clear I was talking about political Russians, professional Russians, not common people that are paying the price - as usual. Oligarch sons won't have to die for their father's profit.

Now you satisfy my curiosity - why is Russian oligarchy more desirable than western corporatism? Or is it only for Ukrainians and the rest of us, folks so far away from you?

No. I didn't sense a clear distinguishment. This is why I asked.

I do not believe there is a difference between the current Russian oligarchy and western corporatism. The corporate western politicians do not send their children into the front line of battle in the wars they wage for profit.

I also believe we're both fighting a common enemy. An enemy who uses a divide and conquer technique to further it's goals of resource management and wealth hoarding. The use of force is prevalent in them.

Meaning - you watched s#!t. If you would had been watching live streams (you know what it means, don't you? not TV channels, in case you still don't get it) on several channels without any commentary, you'd get a bit different picture - not glamorous CNN/BBC "journalism", neither Kremlin's "Goebbelism".

Ustream

[Helen of Annoy]

No. I didn't sense a clear distinguishment. This is why I asked.

I do not believe there is a difference between the current Russian oligarchy and western corporatism. The corporate western politicians do not send their children into the front line of battle in the wars they wage for profit.

I also believe we're both fighting a common enemy. An enemy who uses a divide and conquer technique to further it's goals of resource management and wealth hoarding. The use of force is prevalent in them.

Ustream

You clearly didn't notice my conversations with an actual Russian. Not to mention my real life that is not relevant to you, since it wasn't leaked by uncontrolled media, so you can't trust it was real... ah. anyway.

I don’t fight them. I’m simply waiting for their ridiculous pyramid scheme of world proportions to come crumbling down. They don’t really need any help with destroying themselves.

Then we’ll build again, human society as it should be, and it will be great at first. In few more generations, everything will be lost to vanity and greed but that’s what apes are. Screw it.

Now, the crucial difference between oligarchy and corporatism: snipers.

I can live parallel to corporations, it’s my problem if I chose normal life instead of corporative psychosis. You don’t have that choice in oligarchy that just happened to also go full totalitarian lately.

[bmk1245]

[...]

Ustream

Ustream what stream? BBC/CNN/RT/etc/etc Many streams are/were (on ustream... heck you can hear aliens talking) there, so?

Edit: grammar

Edited March 21, 2014 by bmk1245

[acidhead]

I agree with most of that post Helen.

I'm having trouble believing Yakanovich ordered snipers to shoot once he was gone. Doesnt add up logically. He had nothing to gain from that. He hadnt done anything wrong up to that point.

Doesn't make any sense to have blood on his hands.

Edit: 'criminally' wrong

Sure he pizzed off voters but so do western politicians.

Edited March 21, 2014 by acidhead

[Harry_Dresden]

What did Yanukovich promised in election campaign? Strategic partnership with EU/US (he didn't kept)! Many more promises on economic issues (he didn't kept). Thats where he got many votes. Where did he got more votes? "Russian language" promises (he fulfilled at some extent). Food for thought, so to speak.

And that extreme crap was repealed.

Ok, thats the issue that touches both sides. Ukraine blocked mainstream Goebbels D.Kiselev propaganda. I've been watching both sides - Kremlin is waaaay ahead of London/Berlin/Paris/Washington/etc etc etc.

As for blocking social media... Russkies are the leaders here as well: Dozhd', Lenta.ru, Navalnyi blog, ej.ru... Hope, they will not close Ekho Moskvy...

I see hypocrisy: EU/US express their intentions more or less openly (I admit, less openly than we would crave), while Russia - solely behind the doors.

Seriously?!!! Who the hell told you I trust CNN or FOX or BBC? I sift through many for/against sources before making my mind.

That's right it was extreme and ultra-nationalist that reflects the motivation and the lack of democracy that this "pro-western" government had and just because they "repelled" it doesn't mean that these new Ukrainian leaders won't bring back these measures at another time or in other ways...it just means that they miscalculated and are back-peddling cause of Russia's actions and threats.

I have never said that Russia has more democratic values and rights for it's citizens in fact less is true. But then again their are poor and disenfranchised in both the USA and Russia.

[acidhead]

Ustream what stream? BBC/CNN/RT/etc/etc Many streams are/where (on ustream... heck you can get aliens talking) there, so?

Please. Tell me the live streams you talk of.

[odas]

You clearly didn't notice my conversations with an actual Russian. Not to mention my real life that is not relevant to you, since it wasn't leaked by uncontrolled media, so you can't trust it was real... ah. anyway.

I don’t fight them. I’m simply waiting for their ridiculous pyramid scheme of world proportions to come crumbling down. They don’t really need any help with destroying themselves.

Then we’ll build again, human society as it should be, and it will be great at first. In few more generations, everything will be lost to vanity and greed but that’s what apes are. Screw it.

Now, the crucial difference between oligarchy and corporatism: snipers.

I can live parallel to corporations, it’s my problem if I chose normal life instead of corporative psychosis. You don’t have that choice in oligarchy that just happened to also go full totalitarian lately.

Remember the movie "Otac na sluzbenom putu", Helen?

Better an american poop then a russian cake. So true back then as it is now.

For those who do not see the danger coming from russia and even support them I can only repeat JC's words: "Forgive them. They don't know what they do".

[Frank Merton]

Taken because Tatars were Nazi collaborators

Do you know what "disinformation" is?

[bmk1245]

That's right it was extreme and ultra-nationalist that reflects the motivation and the lack of democracy that this "pro-western" government had and just because they "repelled" that these new Ukrainian leaders won't bring back these measures at another time or in other ways.[...]

I hope it won't happen. But if situation will worsen (threats from Russia to "liberate" South-East Ukraine), that may happen.

[bmk1245]

Please. Tell me the live streams you talk of.

The ones that do not have commentaries, or RT/other Kremlin media logos. Streams I watched had none.

[Frank Merton]

The present President is another Carter. Scream and shout but have no stick at all. (Have you seen what has been happening to the US military).

What will deter the Russians if anything would be short-term economic damage, and I think they've already figure on this and feel best get it over with and go back to the days when Russia was not part of the world economy. The difference was then it was rule by the party; now it will be rule by kleptocrats.

[stevewinn]

Rada deputies were elected. They decided on assembly of interim government and president, not the EU.

Since Ukraine is facing undeclared but very real Russian aggression it would be criminal hypocrisy to halt help for Ukraine under formal excuses.

If Russia was courteous enough to allow their puppet to allow free and fair elections, then yes, EU would have to wait for the results of such elections.

Dont be so naive, the ousted Ukrainian President Yanukovych was the EU's best friend up until he decided to not sign the EU agreement. fully backed by the EU & USA but when it became clear the EU agreement was dead in the water how did the EU & USA respond? - by sending 'their' people to undermine the elected government, encouraging civil unrest - remember Cathy Ashton, John McCain to name two, giving speeches at organised protest marches, protests which were being backed with money from the EU & USA. and all this while Viktor Yanukovych was still the President. the legitimate elected leader of Ukraine a position he held until February. picture below says it all.

look who it is: Cathy Ashton the EU foreign 'minister' on December 10th 2013. and look whose in the picture with her, the (hand selected) now interim Ukrainian President. pictured a full two and a half months before Yanukovych fled office. and your trying to say the EU had no part in him becoming interim president.

The West didn’t act in Kyiv. Ukrainians did. Pro-democratic Ukrainian citizens of all ethnicities, to make it clearer.

There probably are all kinds of agencies present, but there’s no agency in this world that can move a nation. Just like there’s no KGB (or whatever they call themselves today) that can stop a nation.

What happened in Ukraine was not a western plot, it was natural end of Russian occupation of Europe. Better late than never.

what happened in Ukraine was indeed a plot by the EU, they havent spent the last decades spending billions in contributions to Ukraine under the guise of their EU neighbouring policy. just for Ukraine to turn its back on them at the last minute and accept Russian multi million dollar deal instead. falling back into Russian influence.

Crimea is unnatural exception, attempt to reverse the process, and just how well that adventure will end... no water, no electricity, no railways or roads that connect Crimea with Russia. Everything goes from and through Ukraine.

Sure, Russia will build the bridge to Crimea. Out of birch wood if Germany stops buying their gas. It doesn’t matter, as long as there’re fireworks at the opening ceremony.

Tourists will simply flock to the potential war zone without fresh water or electricity. And tourism is what Crimea has. Had. That and warm water ports. Russia has Black Sea ports other than Ukrainian ports she used. On top of that, if they weren’t so damn arrogant and violent the new government would almost certainly keep leasing them to Russia.

The more I think of it all, the more counter-productive for Russia it looks.

and thats why - If Ukraine attemps to limit supply of services to Crimea such as the untilities, Water, Gas Electric, it would simply give the green light for Putin to send troops further into Ukraine something he already has permission to do from the Russian Parliment. and he'd be justified because he'd be protecting Crimean citizens.

Its Ukraine (Crimea) today, tomorrow it might well be Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and no-one should think just because these are NATO members they are safe. far from it. Article 5 will go out the window.

[Helen of Annoy]

I agree with most of that post Helen.

I'm having trouble believing Yakanovich ordered snipers to shoot once he was gone. Doesnt add up logically. He had nothing to gain from that. He hadnt done anything wrong up to that point.

Doesn't make any sense to have blood on his hands.

Edit: 'criminally' wrong

Sure he pizzed off voters but so do western politicians.

How can you even put western politicians into the same sentence with Yanukovich?

You need to experience the history. I’m sure you’d be less prone to put anyone you dislike into the same basket with potential and real mass murderers of their own people.

Also, my politicians are now western too, since we are finally back to Europe, but they – no matter how crappy and dishonest they are – were elected and are not involved in sniping civilians.

Yes, Yanukovich did it. It’s more than obvious, I have absolutely zero doubts on that.

(Just like I have absolutely zero doubts it were Serbs that fired at Dubrovnik in Croatia or Markale market in Bosnia. Murdering civilians and accusing them of suicide is something used against my people so many times it has become almost boring to live through that phenomenon again. It’s Russian and Russian-proxy signature.)

Yanukovich was defending his parasitic position and his contempt for citizens of Ukraine was very well documented. He had no chance to win at free and fair elections, he was about to lose his obscenely luxurious dictator position and he failed at one job Putin gave him: to drag Ukraine, kicking and screaming, into customs union with Russia.

He had no morals to stop him but no choice either. Engaging deadly, cowardly force against civilians was his last attempt to scare Ukrainians back into obedience and – this is even more important and more eerie - literally cut the head of protests off. Again, that’s typical Russian imperialism at work - seen everywhere in Europe occupied by Russia. Most drastic example of beheading a nation was Katyn massacre, attributed to Germans for half a century, still denied by many Russians. So the Russians don’t understand why Poland is “under evil western influence”, why Poles can’t see they are actually Russians... it’s so tragic yet so hilarious. Anyway...

Maidan was very well organised, by Ukrainians themselves. Suggesting they need an advice from the West on self-organization and self-defence is ridiculous.

It’s exactly the opposite: if you need an advice on resistance, ask Ukrainians.

Also, the more radical the option, the less meddling from the West they’ll accept. So the theory of Pravy Sector murdering their own (!) at western request (!!) may come only from Kremlin and can be taken seriously only by those who deliberately choose to swallow Russian propaganda or those who have no idea how nationalism works in Europe.

Liberal West is often shocked with our definitions of loyalty and you think there’s a chance a nationalist would kill 100 of his own people because random western weakling with suspicious family tree told him so?

Really...

Ukraine is lost for Russia forever, said Timoshenko and I agree. She wouldn’t be my political choice if I was born, living and voting in Ukraine, but I’m very happy for Ukrainians who have right to choose their own government and president again.

I’m sure that whomever they choose in any of their future elections will lead Ukraine back home, to Europe.

Remember the movie "Otac na sluzbenom putu", Helen?

Better an american poop then a russian cake. So true back then as it is now.

For those who do not see the danger coming from russia and even support them I can only repeat JC's words: "Forgive them. They don't know what they do".

No one from yours or my country who went to the West, be it Germany, USA or you-name-it has come back home complaining they couldn't make a living in the evil West. No one came back bruised or murdered, except the older emigration generation that used to be assassinated by ex-Yu state terrorists.

Very rare people went to Russia by business and apart from that guy shot in Moscow, they're mostly back home and have no stories to tell, which is too telling.

Not that western pro-Russian internet fifth column cares for what happens to us.

I don't talk to them because I hope they could start thinking for themselves, I'm posting in the memory of everyone we lost.

Edit: speeling. speling. spelling! damn it!

Edited March 22, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Helen of Annoy]

Dont be so naive, the ousted Ukrainian President Yanukovych was the EU's best friend up until he decided to not sign the EU agreement. fully backed by the EU & USA but when it became clear the EU agreement was dead in the water how did the EU & USA respond? - by sending 'their' people to undermine the elected government, encouraging civil unrest - remember Cathy Ashton, John McCain to name two, giving speeches at organised protest marches, protests which were being backed with money from the EU & USA. and all this while Viktor Yanukovych was still the President. the legitimate elected leader of Ukraine a position he held until February. picture below says it all.

look who it is: Cathy Ashton the EU foreign 'minister' on December 10th 2013. and look whose in the picture with her, the (hand selected) now interim Ukrainian President. pictured a full two and a half months before Yanukovych fled office. and your trying to say the EU had no part in him becoming interim president.

No, that’s not what I’m trying to say.

I am saying that EU didn’t play active enough role and that Ukraine had to withstand Russian attack on their sovereignty almost alone.

Holding hands is nice, but real sticking up for Ukraine is yet to be seen.

Of course the former opposition had their people more-less ready to take offices, wouldn’t it be a little strange if they had no one in mind?

what happened in Ukraine was indeed a plot by the EU, they havent spent the last decades spending billions in contributions to Ukraine under the guise of their EU neighbouring policy. just for Ukraine to turn its back on them at the last minute and accept Russian multi million dollar deal instead. falling back into Russian influence.

Not enough. Ukraine deserves more of money made out of thin air in countries such as your country.

If we can’t change the crappy system at the moment, we can at least find ways to use it.

and thats why - If Ukraine attemps to limit supply of services to Crimea such as the untilities, Water, Gas Electric, it would simply give the green light for Putin to send troops further into Ukraine something he already has permission to do from the Russian Parliment. and he'd be justified because he'd be protecting Crimean citizens.

lol?

No, he wouldn’t be justified. I can go outside, grab the chainsaw and saw the wooden electric pole. My neighbour would lose the power and though he would be free to call the police or yell “What the **** did you do, crazy woman?” he still couldn’t shoot me dead and call it justified.

Its Ukraine (Crimea) today, tomorrow it might well be Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and no-one should think just because these are NATO members they are safe. far from it. Article 5 will go out the window.

Exactly. If Ukraine is left to face aggression alone today, tomorrow it will be Poland or Baltic.

If they are left alone to face Russian aggression alone, I’m next.

You’re deadly wrong if you think they’d ever stop on their own, if the appeasing continues. So you’d have to thank god for Germans, who are physically between you and cuddly Russians who might come to protect their assets and citizens in UK one day not too far in that future, luckily, only one of many possible futures.

[SolarPlexus]

EU started this whole mess, now they accuse Russia of starting a crisis ahahhaa so funny to watch the West squirm under Putin's gaze

[Helen of Annoy]

Oh, look, a greater Serb...

How’s Vojvodina doing? Still attached to Serbia? All it takes is a little stronger wind and there she goes too... so I wouldn’t flail my hands if I were you.

Especially if you don’t hold a passport in the flailing hand, I don’t know which one of your neighbours would mind more if you’d cross your borders illegally again.

But don’t be sad, I have great news: Montenegrin contingent returned safely home from Afghanistan where they were proving their dedication to joining NATO.

Serbia used to call Montenegro “the other eye in the same head”. Well, the eye that used to be yours has landed on my European soil. They changed so much since the time their land was used to house howitzers that were pounding on Dubrovnik, world heritage site.

And some bad news: Serbia is refusing to apply sanctions against Russia.

This will hinder their supposedly honest effort to enter EU one day in distant future.

So they will sit all alone, waiting for Russia to expand her borders all the way down to them. You can talk to each other through empty South Stream pipeline while you wait for that.

[Mr.United_Nations]

what i dont understand is why Russia refuses the inspectors in Crimea?

[stevewinn]

No, that’s not what I’m trying to say.

I am saying that EU didn’t play active enough role and that Ukraine had to withstand Russian attack on their sovereignty almost alone.

Holding hands is nice, but real sticking up for Ukraine is yet to be seen.

Of course the former opposition had their people more-less ready to take offices, wouldn’t it be a little strange if they had no one in mind?

Not enough. Ukraine deserves more of money made out of thin air in countries such as your country.

If we can’t change the crappy system at the moment, we can at least find ways to use it.

lol?

No, he wouldn’t be justified. I can go outside, grab the chainsaw and saw the wooden electric pole. My neighbour would lose the power and though he would be free to call the police or yell “What the **** did you do, crazy woman?” he still couldn’t shoot me dead and call it justified.

Exactly. If Ukraine is left to face aggression alone today, tomorrow it will be Poland or Baltic.

If they are left alone to face Russian aggression alone, I’m next.

You’re deadly wrong if you think they’d ever stop on their own, if the appeasing continues. So you’d have to thank god for Germans, who are physically between you and cuddly Russians who might come to protect their assets and citizens in UK one day not too far in that future, luckily, only one of many possible futures.

Has a former (cold war) British Defence Secretary said on Thursday, "when expanding the EU and NATO they were extremely cautious not to include Ukraine in that expansion, firstly cautious because it was considered totally unrealistic, and secondly because it would've had a massive effect on destablising the country (Ukraine) and a massive provocation to Russia, Yet somehow that sensible approach as been lost over the years and so actually we've arrived at a situation where we were offering the prospect of EU / NATO membership, which as turned out to have a strong effect on destablising the country and antagonised Russia".

So the British Foreign policy predicted this over 30 years ago and yet today the EU didnt see it coming. extrodinary, the EU have learned a real hard lesson here, expansion at all costs, does in fact cost. and they've been found wanting. and still people will lay all the blame on Russia.

what i dont understand is why Russia refuses the inspectors in Crimea?

What would they inspect?

[Mr.United_Nations]

Has a former (cold war) British Defence Secretary said on Thursday, "when expanding the EU and NATO they were extremely cautious not to include Ukraine in that expansion, firstly cautious because it was considered totally unrealistic, and secondly because it would've had a massive effect on destablising the country (Ukraine) and a massive provocation to Russia, Yet somehow that sensible approach as been lost over the years and so actually we've arrived at a situation where we were offering the prospect of EU / NATO membership, which as turned out to have a strong effect on destablising the country and antagonised Russia".

So the British Foreign policy predicted this over 30 years ago and yet today the EU didnt see it coming. extrodinary, the EU have learned a real hard lesson here, expansion at all costs, does in fact cost. and they've been found wanting. and still people will lay all the blame on Russia.

What would they inspect?

Whatever Russia is denying, when Crimea was annexed, very little news was coming out apart from the storming of Ukrainian bases. the only thing what Russia could be doing is updating and building defense systems

[SolarPlexus]

what i dont understand is why Russia refuses the inspectors in Crimea?

The referendum is complete so no point to have UN observers now (if them is what you mean by "inspectors")