Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[stevewinn]

Whatever Russia is denying, when Crimea was annexed, very little news was coming out apart from the storming of Ukrainian bases. the only thing what Russia could be doing is updating and building defense systems

what are the Russians denying? i notice the internet is still working in Crimea.

[Helen of Annoy]

Has a former (cold war) British Defence Secretary said on Thursday, "when expanding the EU and NATO they were extremely cautious not to include Ukraine in that expansion, firstly cautious because it was considered totally unrealistic, and secondly because it would've had a massive effect on destablising the country (Ukraine) and a massive provocation to Russia, Yet somehow that sensible approach as been lost over the years and so actually we've arrived at a situation where we were offering the prospect of EU / NATO membership, which as turned out to have a strong effect on destablising the country and antagonised Russia".

So the British Foreign policy predicted this over 30 years ago and yet today the EU didnt see it coming. extrodinary, the EU have learned a real hard lesson here, expansion at all costs, does in fact cost. and they've been found wanting. and still people will lay all the blame on Russia.

EU did see approximately “it” coming, only it’s not Russia antagonized by Europe being Europe, it’s Europe being attacked by expansionist Russia. Many saw that, but no one could stop it, since it was Russian decision to start invading again.

You don’t stop that with appeasing, you make it worse with appeasing.

But various secretaries that were more concerned about Russian than European interests are no longer influential as they used to be.

I’ll refrain from guessing what the reason for such bizarre shift in loyalty was.

What would they inspect?

Tatars. They could start throwing themselves out of their own homes, disappearing and dropping dead just to spite innocent Russia in the eyes of the world.

[stevewinn]

EU did see approximately “it” coming, only it’s not Russia antagonized by Europe being Europe, it’s Europe being attacked by expansionist Russia. Many saw that, but no one could stop it, since it was Russian decision to start invading again.

You don’t stop that with appeasing, you make it worse with appeasing.

But various secretaries that were more concerned about Russian than European interests are no longer influential as they used to be.

I’ll refrain from guessing what the reason for such bizarre shift in loyalty was.

Tatars. They could start throwing themselves out of their own homes, disappearing and dropping dead just to spite innocent Russia in the eyes of the world.

I disagree totally about the EU fortelling what would happen in Ukraine. the EU simply got its policy wrong. they thought a simple offer of an EU association agreement to Ukraine instead of full membership offer would bring Ukraine closer but without all the consequences of offering full membership. they wrongly assumed the lesser Association agreement wouldnt antagonise Russia to the point they'd act. how do we know this? well its pretty clear by the EU's reaction to events. ad hoc, mishmatch of policy and indecision. Did they really expect Russia to just sit idly by and watch events unfold.

As you put it "only it’s not Russia antagonized by Europe being Europe, it’s Europe being attacked by expansionist Russia." well i raise the question, what about expansionist EU? Okay they do it through soft power which takes decades of cunning to achieve. But because Russia hasnt got decades their approach is more robust. its the same outcome one with a pen the other a sword. equally both have the same end.

for all the EU Nobel peace prize Rubbish - If we are not careful EU expansion is going to get us caught up in a war not of our choosing and its clear Ukraine in the greater context is of little importance to the United States and NATO as evident by the action or lack of action, Obama as already shown his hand, ruling out military force. they are willing to sacrifice Crimea, you bet in the diplomatic meetings of which we'll never get to hear about the West will concede to Russia stop at Crimea and we'll ease off. we'll then throw a few sanctions not at the Russian state or economy but at a few political/offical individuals to make it look back home (in the west) we are outraged at Russia's actions.

on the point of inspectors what evidence do we have so far that UN inspectors are needed to monitor the situation?

[SolarPlexus]

expansionist Russia lmao.... So US/NATO is not expansionist but Russia is ? Irony of the century ..

EDIT: on a side note, .. public opinion agency VTSIOM commented today that support of president Putin among Russians have skyrocketed to the new record - 75.7% public support

Edited March 22, 2014 by SolarPlexus

[Helen of Annoy]

OMG, how is this possible? We're just a bunch of random people from random countries and each one of us is such a total stereotype

steve, I believe Russia would react the same even if Ukraine wanted to stay out of EU. It's not about Ukraine joining EU, it's about Ukraine exiting the undead USSR or what's left of it.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Appanrelty Russia is now getting to take that little area between Moldova and Ukraine, forgot the name of it thouhg

[stevewinn]

Appanrelty Russia is now getting to take that little area between Moldova and Ukraine, forgot the name of it thouhg

Is it the breakaway region on the river Diniester. i cant remember the name either.

[Helen of Annoy]

Appanrelty Russia is now getting to take that little area between Moldova and Ukraine, forgot the name of it thouhg

Transnistria (or Transdniestria or Trans-Dniestr).

Putin’s apologetics may shut the **** up now, Russia is on the expansionist spree.

It’s not deniable anymore. Sadly.

It was not NATO, Europe, aliens or bad moon phase, it was Putin who always thought “that Perestroyka brought Russia to her knees”.

Where’s Gorbachov when Russia needs one?

Russia got out of economic collapse, opened to the world and to the future to some extent, had very handsome gas and oil business... what now?

Strip of land here, strip of land there, a peninsula and renewed reputation of geopolitical and business leper... congrats.

I don’t think rare potential Russian half-allies will want to support that. China first, when they see Crimea, they instantly think of Tibet or Uyghurs.

Maybe I don’t see something important that could explain what Russia has to gain from losing everything but trophy strips of land, or maybe this cunning imperialist plan wasn’t thought through.

By the way, there goes Bosnia again... Serbs are already talking about referendum.

It's not that I don't have words to describe how I feel, it's just that such words are hard to translate, due to shortage of morbid curses in English language.

[stevewinn]

Yes thats right, - the place. its nothing to worry about, If indeed Russia did move on the region im sure most would be glad its of no importance to anyone. From the BBC website.

The separatist region of Trans-Dniester - a narrow strip of land between the Dniester river and the Ukrainian border - proclaimed independence from Moldova in 1990, and is considered one of the post-Soviet space's "frozen conflicts". The international community does not recognise its self-declared statehood, and the territory, which remains in a tense stand-off with Moldova, is often portrayed as a hotbed of crime. In a September 2006 referendum, unrecognised by Moldova and the international community, the region reasserted its demand for independence and also backed a plan eventually to join Russia.

Trans-Dniester contains most of Moldova's industrial infrastructure, but its economic potential is limited by its international isolation. It has its own currency, constitution, parliament, flag and anthem. One of the last bastions of Soviet-style rhetoric, the territory has nonetheless privatised some of its industrial enterprises.

Russia shores up the region with financial assistance and funds a monthly payment to the region's pensioners. It has a reputation for corruption, organised crime and smuggling, and has denied accusations of illegal arms sales and of money laundering.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18284837

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Is anyone else in that area clamouring to be part of Russia again?

[acidhead]

Just curious...

What are the odds of a major terrorist attack to hit Moscow soon?

A terror attack equal or greater than 911.

Imagine what implications such an attack would create to divert international public opinion

in regards to western and recent eastern imperialism.

I've been pondering this for some time now. The timing is perfect. The reaction would be interesting.

[SolarPlexus]

About Moldova... Its just speculation. Anyone who is more or less familiar with world politics knows the main trend in Russian foreign policy since president Putin took the helm - and the word is patience and discipline. While NATO, US, and their EU partners are spreading destruction across the globe (and getting ever sloppier) Russia is self-centered, is unaggressive and has maintained a marginal but neutral and cooperative (you could say elegant) stance in regards to their western partners .

So this takeover of Moldova's republic aint gonna happen any time soon. Even if they'd vote on a referendum to become a part of Russia Putin would never allow it, he is too disciplined and treading very carefully unlike US and NATO who are apparently eager for bloodshed. All statements in the UN by Russian officials have been clean as a whistle and you'd be pushed hard to find any speck in that. The Duma processes related to Crimea's referendum have been swift, efficient and transparent to the whole world. I mean, it is becoming increasingly difficulty to criticize Russia foreign policy with any merit . This whole mess in Ukraine has vilified Russia in the west, but this is fooling less and less people. Not only in Russia, where Putin's popularity in record high, but in Germany (a country which , in a way, carries the whole Europe on its back) recent study shows that 60% think Crimea should become Russia, and 54% have expressed support towards president Putin.

In the current state of things , which is the re-emergence of Russia, the west played a big part because by having sunk so low, they have elevated Russian position morally. Russians aint gonna start grabbing land frantically all of a sudden, but , in time , as they solve problems at home, they'll surely become more opportunistic due to this moral decline present in western foreign policy.

Edited March 23, 2014 by SolarPlexus

[odas]

Transnistria (or Transdniestria or Trans-Dniestr).

Putin’s apologetics may shut the **** up now, Russia is on the expansionist spree.

It’s not deniable anymore. Sadly.

It was not NATO, Europe, aliens or bad moon phase, it was Putin who always thought “that Perestroyka brought Russia to her knees”.

Where’s Gorbachov when Russia needs one?

Russia got out of economic collapse, opened to the world and to the future to some extent, had very handsome gas and oil business... what now?

Strip of land here, strip of land there, a peninsula and renewed reputation of geopolitical and business leper... congrats.

I don’t think rare potential Russian half-allies will want to support that. China first, when they see Crimea, they instantly think of Tibet or Uyghurs.

Maybe I don’t see something important that could explain what Russia has to gain from losing everything but trophy strips of land, or maybe this cunning imperialist plan wasn’t thought through.

By the way, there goes Bosnia again... Serbs are already talking about referendum.

It's not that I don't have words to describe how I feel, it's just that such words are hard to translate, due to shortage of morbid curses in English language.

They are talking about since 1995. On the other hand Serbia just elected pro europe parties.

I do not want to say that bosnian serbs will not try to fly on the wings of russians but they have to get clear that this is not 1991/1992. 'Nuf said.

[stevewinn]

Is anyone else in that area clamouring to be part of Russia again?

the whole region has pockets clamouring to be Russian again. it was only really post 1991 with the collapse of the Soviet Union that we now see 14 former Soviet union states, Estonia, (NATO) Lithuania (NATO) Latvia (NATO) Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan. as you'd expect most but not all have sizeable populations of ethnic Russians. the Baltic members are more anti Russian, but you get further fragmentation with regions such as Trans-Dniester. in these areas Russia could if it wanted, use the same reasoning/excuses it used in Crimea and hold referendums in numerous areas.

[SolarPlexus]

Bloodthirsty Timoshenko says its time to kill all Russians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te2E1R5YHBI

http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/

[acidhead]

I wonder if she braids hair in prison.

[SolarPlexus]

I thought she is out of prison ? Yeah nice hairstyle, but for me its the *only* nice thing about her..... few years ago I didn't even dream this woman could be such a political psychopath

[Helen of Annoy]

“Surprisingly”, Timoshenko’s private conversation was illegally recorded (is it all right to spy on people when Russia is doing it, oh, thou fifth column of the West?) and altered by Russian specialists for that type of war.

(Another similarity between Serbian aggression on Croatia and Russian aggression on Ukraine: before Serbia attacked us, their specialists were producing incriminating material that was supposed to prove Croats are planning ethnically based attacks, while it was Serbia that had not just attacks, but whole ethnic cleansing planned. It was 20+ years ago, so the fakes were of much lower quality but the method is the same.)

Even if Timoshenko’s words were not criminally altered, which they were, it still would be quite understandable for anyone under attack of foreign invaders to say many horrible things and curse a lot.

It doesn’t mean the politician will actually do everything they said privately, venting their frustration out.

Hell, I feel like cursing each time I take a look at highly annoying, disgustingly dishonest, never changing KGB crap. Or *censored* who *censored* at *censored* of that *censored*. Yep, if I didn’t censor it, there’s at least one little *censored* who’d go crying to the mods, all offended.

On the brighter side, Donetsk wants to join UK instead of Russia. The town was founded by Welsh guy who brought industry and football there, so they decided to return to their roots

It was just a humorous referendum on the Internet, of course, but has more credibility and makes more sense than official Russian propaganda.

So, since there obviously are people who comment on Ukraine but are not acquainted with the basic facts, Timoshenko was released, finally had surgery Russians denied her while she was in prison and will run for president. What a strange phrase... she will be one of presidential candidates in the next elections. Just in case I got something wrong.

Anyway, the hairdo she’s famous for is traditional and symbolizes the values she believes in. Both girls and older women seen among protestors often sported the same braid, typical for Central and Eastern Europe. Personally, I’d love to see our good traditions revived, braids included.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Helen of Annoy]

Oh, this one is too good, I had to drop by and share:

Remember how some people thought Zhirinovsky is just an idiot?

Well, the idiot wrote to Polish Ministry of external affairs with dead serious offer to split Ukraine. To make things worse, he wrote officially, from Duma (Russian parliament), as a deputy, not private idiotic person.

You can see the map of his delusions on the link (article not in English, I'm just showing you the map):

http://www.dnevno.hr/vijesti/svijet/118392-rusija-sluzbeno-predlozila-poljskoj-sudjelovati-u-podjeli-ukrajine.html

Similar offers were sent to Hungary and Romania.

Polish minister of external affairs said the letter was bizarre but will be answered politely

[stevewinn]

Oh, this one is too good, I had to drop by and share:

Remember how some people thought Zhirinovsky is just an idiot?

Well, the idiot wrote to Polish Ministry of external affairs with dead serious offer to split Ukraine. To make things worse, he wrote officially, from Duma (Russian parliament), as a deputy, not private idiotic person.

You can see the map of his delusions on the link (article not in English, I'm just showing you the map):

http://www.dnevno.hr...i-ukrajine.html

Similar offers were sent to Hungary and Romania.

Polish minister of external affairs said the letter was bizarre but will be answered politely

i read this a few days ago, something like five regions if i remember, - It sounds like a plan, and a good one at that. think about it.

[Helen of Annoy]

i read this a few days ago, something like five regions if i remember, - It sounds like a plan, and a good one at that. think about it.

Ukraine is unitary state, not a federation.

There are less legal grounds for diving it than there are such grounds for dividing UK. Think about that.

If Zhirinovsky wants a chunk of Ukraine, he should come personally and try taking it.

Sadly, he is not the only Russian chauvinist that is destroying relations between Ukrainians and Russians for the sake of temporary domination. That is crime that will affect generations of their own and neighbouring nations. So I’m adding my curse on their stupid, traitorous, brother-murdering heads.

Russia sent the clown to test the reactions to the idea of ripping Ukraine apart. That notion is so ridiculous there was no need for such testing, which indicates certain despair in the greater Russian circles. Looks like they expected much milder reaction to their conquests and now, since there’s no way back, they are trying to involve others in their own dirty business. Russia would so love to distribute the shame and loss an attack on neighbouring nation brings. But there are no puppet commie dictators anymore who would kiss Russian behind, not in Poland, not in Hungary, nor in Romania.

I might quote Wesley Clark here, though he spoke regarding Serbian megalomania awaken by recent Russian political psychosis

(translated from Bosnian back to English, I have no English original so I apologize for possible minor differences):

“What we see today in Ukraine reminds of Balkans in the 1990s. It only makes the finishing of the process of democratization of European continent more important. So, it wouldn’t hurt that people are reminded of what they owe to Bosnia and Herzegovina.

...

Those in Europe, in Balkans or in Bosnia and Herzegovina who are longing for Putin, praising his politics, let them go to him. I’m sure he’ll welcome them and it will be so great for them there. They who want Putin, should go to Russia. It’s a big country, Siberia is huge. There’s plenty of space there.”

Amen.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[bmk1245]

There is some huge time lag in the last news, but one of the leaders of "Right Sector", Oleksandr Muzychko (aka Sasha Bilyi) was killed by special forces of Ukraine on the night of 24/25. Russian media wrecking havoc about that...

Russians cheering, western countries silent... I'm somewhere in the middle: if (hypothetically) outright nazi (with criminal past) saves children from burning car - is he a hero, or is he a scumbag? Dammit...

With all threats from Yarosh, and Avakov's stance... I see civil war ahead... though, I hope sanity will prevail...

[Helen of Annoy]

There is some huge time lag in the last news, but one of the leaders of "Right Sector", Oleksandr Muzychko (aka Sasha Bilyi) was killed by special forces of Ukraine on the night of 24/25. Russian media wrecking havoc about that...

Russians cheering, western countries silent... I'm somewhere in the middle: if (hypothetically) outright nazi (with criminal past) saves children from burning car - is he a hero, or is he a scumbag? Dammit...

With all threats from Yarosh, and Avakov's stance... I see civil war ahead... though, I hope sanity will prevail...

Russians may be cheering, but their bosses are probably very disappointed. Muzychko was exactly what Moscow needed, a neo-Nazi bogeyman, a proof that Ukraine is rabid, a proof Russia needs so desperately.

Now the extremist is gone and turns out the whole Ukraine not only is not completely extremist but is also able and – gasp – willing to keep the rule of the law.

Because Muzichko was killed while resisting the police, if the reports are right.

No one wants to comment because this is moral conundrum: would you take one life to save many?

Apparently, such dilemmas are much easier to solve in real life than in theory.

Generally speaking, many heroes were more or less not right in their heads. There’re certain traits, like the ability to overcome fear, or inner rage of suicidal proportions, that may manifest both through very destructive or very heroic deeds. Some people did both good and bad and only those who know them personally will know possibly why.

Sometimes heroes didn’t even do their heroic deeds out of empathy, but out of desire to prove themselves. Not all of them, naturally, sometimes heroes are completely sane men, whose empathy or sense of duty beat their fear.

[spud the mackem]

liveleak videos? Oh dear... Did you watched live feeds? Guess not...

Riot Police UNARMED which planet do you live on

[spud the mackem]

Helen...

Just curious...

In your opinion, does there exist good Russians?

If I may, Yes I have met good Russian people, mostly on Russian ships docking in the U.K. when I had to board them, but they were carefully controlled by a Political Officer,(every ship had one) and even the Captain had to be carefull of what he said.Most of the Officers were Russian Navy people and wore Russian Navy uniforms.