Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[acidhead]

John McCain was on Piers Morgan tonight saying Putin is going to act after the olympics and the USA needs to restrain or constrict any attempt by Russia to intervene.

[questionmark]

Well, nobody what anybody seez:

Negotiators reach deal to end Ukraine crisis

BREAKING NEWS: President Viktor Yanukovych signed a deal with three opposition leaders Friday aimed at ending Ukraine’s bloody political crisis. This article will be updated.

KIEV, Ukraine — A deal designed to end Ukraine’s long-running crisis was reached Friday after all-night negotiations that included European and Russian mediators, the office of President Viktor Yanukovych announced.

In a statement on his Web site, the embattled Yanukovych said he would start a process leading to an early presidential election but set no date. He also pledged to form a coalition government and to initiate constitutional reforms aimed at curbing the president’s powers.

There was no immediate reaction to the statement from opposition leaders, who were meeting among themselves, the Associated Press reported.

Read more

Looks like, if you keep Putin out, reason prevails.

Edited February 21, 2014 by questionmark

[+OverSword]

I'll believe it after it happens. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do and act accordingly.

[questionmark]

in related news:

(Reuters) - Ukraine's opposition leaders signed an EU-mediated peace pact with President Viktor Yanukovich on Friday, winning a raft of concessions in a delicate deal to end violence that killed at least 77 people and turned the capital into a battle zone.

By nightfall, opposition leaders who signed the deal were addressing peaceful crowds from a stage in Independence Square, which for the past 48 hours had become an inferno of blazing barricades, where protesters were shot dead by police snipers.

But the crowd was still defiant, holding aloft open coffins of slain demonstrators and making speeches denouncing the opposition leaders for shaking hands with Yanukovich.

Read more

[Kaa-Tzik]

Some sources.

I have deliberately not chosen any Russian media to avoid accusations of bias, and besides, the main Russian media outlets such as Vesti, NTV, Lenta etc are easily found.

Only this top link is all in English, the some of the other media outlets have an English section, though this is usually very limited and out of date.

http://www.kyivpost.com/

http://ru.tsn.ua/

http://interfax.com.ua/

This is for the Ministry of Internal Affairs, though the ministry is now in chaos as minister has gone and government buildings and organs now seem under control of revolutionaries

http://mvs.gov.ua/mv...l/main/ru/index

These three are for public pages on VK social site that can be viewed without an account. I have chosen pages from opposing sides. Yes, I know only a tiny number of people on this forum can read Russian and Ukranian, but at least it is information without the filter of any media or politicians from any side or country.

This is the page for Berkut (Riot police)

http://vk.com/berkut_kiev

This page is for "right sektor" the main group fighting the government. They actually call themselves revolutionaries quiet openly, it is only fools like Obama and western media that persist in calling them "peaceful protestors". The group admin are very careful to tell anybody who posts messages not to give any "ammunition" to their enemies or any media. That means they do not want their usual fascist comments quoted. Yet they are not always so careful, even calling for a "democratic" Ukraine, but with any eastern Ukranian political parties banned, and Russian language banned, yes, very "democratic".....

http://vk.com/public62043361

This is the page of the revolutionaries cyberwarfare unit

http://vk.com/cyber100ua

Take note that the majority of all these links are certainly NOT favorable to Yanukovich.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[+and-then]

Apparently Yanukovich has left the area. I'm curious if he is planning to make an official resignation or if this move is preliminary to another round of fighting. For what it's worth, I expect the latter. The protesters do not seem to trust enough to leave the streets until his resignation is official. It will be out of character for Putin to accept this without action, IMO. He KNOWS Obama will do nothing. He thinks the EU can do nothing. The only thing restraining him at this point is a realization that the bloodletting necessary would ruin his image in the world which he currently enjoys. But I suspect his ego will get the better of him yet. I hope I am wrong and that Ukraine gets to decide for itself which sphere of influence it wants to be a part of - east or west. If Tymoshenko rises to power again I think the country will turn to the west - and possibly a civil war anyway.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Apparently Yanukovich has left the area. I'm curious if he is planning to make an official resignation or if this move is preliminary to another round of fighting. For what it's worth, I expect the latter. The protesters do not seem to trust enough to leave the streets until his resignation is official. It will be out of character for Putin to accept this without action, IMO. He KNOWS Obama will do nothing. He thinks the EU can do nothing. The only thing restraining him at this point is a realization that the bloodletting necessary would ruin his image in the world which he currently enjoys. But I suspect his ego will get the better of him yet. I hope I am wrong and that Ukraine gets to decide for itself which sphere of influence it wants to be a part of - east or west. If Tymoshenko rises to power again I think the country will turn to the west - and possibly a civil war anyway.

Yanukovich is in Kharkov, despite ludicrous claims Presidential plane has been tracked by radar heading somewhere in general direction of Iran. I say this because faked radar plots are circulating, several on the right sektor link I gave.

The revolutionaries, as they describe themselves, on the streets of Kiev will soon enough learn they are "useful idiots". It does not matter what people say on this forum, no matter now loud they shout against me, right sektor and Svoboda are Russian haters, Jew haters and EU haters, and every country has such people, so, do you think they will last long when an EU/US supported government becomes reality in Kiev, and soon it seems.... We even know from the Nuland phone call that not even Klitschko has a place in the "New" Ukraine.

I wait to see the results of what happens in Kharkov before making further comment on any possible future developments.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

And moves fast.

South and Eastern Ukranian regional authorities are to take responsibility for constitutional order in these regions, and, more importantly, have decided to ignore any government in Kiev, and besides, there is no longer any effective government in Kiev and police have left the streets. Orders are, in South and Eastern regions, to form militias to protect order and arms and ammunition depots. So, is this it, is this the beginning of the real horror? I don't know....

Edited February 22, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

On the links I posted.

Berkut have closed their group to the public, and it is possible they may no longer exist as a unit, as it is reported that one of the revolutionary leaders of those who were shooting at Berkut, has an "official" position in the Interior Ministry. I would think Berkut members are rapidly organising the safety of themselves and their families as they are already under a sentence of death from the fascists.

I had forgotten to point out that the revolutionaries cyberwarfare group was only begun on 14 February, a few days before the assault on government buildings in Kiev by the revolutionaries began. Some forward planning then.......

And a mention on double standards and hypocrisy from the western media, in this case the BBC. They say that Russian triple gold medal winner, Viktor Ahn, has really won medals for South Korea, not Russia. So, the UK double gold medal winner, Mo Farrah, won medals for Somalia, not UK, by the "logic" of the BBC. There is not one hope in Hell of the BBC ever saying Farrah is not 100% British. What hypocrites BBC are......

And to make it clear, before those here who deal in disinformation start lying, again. Three days back the authorities in Lvov declared independance from Kiev. This is a sussesion no matter how it is looked at. This was ignored, to my knowledge, by western media, and probably because their, and everybodies focus, was on Kiev. Oh, and anybody seen the photos of barricades and anti-tank guns on roads leading into Lvov for several days now. eh..

Anyway, the decision of Southern and Eastern regions to govern themselves is NOT, as they have firmly stated, an attempt to break away from the rest of Ukraine, it is to prevent infection of those regions from the forces of chaos, and a break up of Ukraine is NOT desired, unlike in Lvov. There is nobody governing the country at this moment, what else is to be done....

Edited February 22, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

Couple minutes ago it was confirmed that chiefs of “paramilitary police” have appeared on TV and stated they are now with the people.

Ceausescu... Yanukovich has promised to sign his resignation, finally.

Now the older news.

Rada (Ukrainian parliament) voted for return to the 2004 Constitution. It means Yanukovich is no longer dictator in Ukraine.

Rada also voted for Tymoshenko's release from the prison, some two hours ago. She’s still physically in prison hospital.

The opposition will probably keep functioning as the coalition at first. I expect divisions later, relatively much later, once the direct danger of Russian imperialist attack is gone.

Ukrainians can’t afford petty political differences right now.

Return to the 2004 Constitution ensures their next president may come from any party with no danger of dragging whole country into unions that are against the will of the majority of the people. It will take decisions of Rada (Ukrainian parliament) from now on. As it should be in civilized countries.

Yanukovich fled Kyiv and after being missing for couple of hours, he materialized in Kharkiv. He stated he will return to Kyiv. I don’t know what for, maybe to stand trial for ordering murders of civilians.

There are rumours Yanukovich didn’t just flee out of Kyiv because he’s afraid of the people, but he will also try to establish separatist Russian government in the south-east. (What that resident KGB guy on UM was cheering for since the beginning.)

Officials in south-east regions indeed announced they are now “waiting for the return of constitutional order”. Translated, they are apparently not acknowledging legitimacy of Rada, their own Ukrainian parliament, and they are waiting for neighbouring Russia to reinstall Yanukovich and make Ukraine more Russian on expense of Ukrainians. Yes, it’s that bizarre.

On the other hand, some sudden congress in Kharkiv Yanukovich had to attend says “no separation was mentioned”. Translated, pro-Russians are a bit confused. It probably means part of them wants to find ways of coexistence with the majority, which is good news.

Protestors gathered in Khakiv too. Couple hundred of pro-Russian and thousands of pro-democracy protestors. It went peaceful by now.

This whole mess happened because Russian and pro-Russian analyses were not done on the actual situation but on their own personal wishes and inclinations. Another old, disgusting soviet habit. They always expected the reality will adapt to them and if it doesn’t – they can always murder couple thousand people and call them something, say, fascists, posthumously.

USSR is dead. It can't go to light because it had no soul, so it's haunting the neighbourhood.

It would be amusing if it wasn't still taking human lives.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Saru]

Thread cleaned

Could we keep the personal insults, accusations and political mudslinging off the forums please.

[MordorOrc]

So has Yanko actually resigned or is he still obstinately clinging on to power in Kharkov?

[Helen of Annoy]

So has Yanko actually resigned or is he still obstinately clinging on to power in Kharkov?

He did promise to resign, but then he changed his mind.

He’s not in Kyiv, not in Kharkiv, he might be somewhere in Donetsk region, so Rada (Ukrainian parliament) had to declare the president has abandoned his office and his duties and they set date for elections (25^th May, not sometime in distant future as Yanko hoped).

He tried escaping Ukraine from an airport in the eastern Ukraine, but was stopped. That should give some perspective to those who thought east Ukraine would do anything for Russia and her puppet.

Even deputies from Yanukovich’s party voted against him.

People entered his bizarrely luxurious home and yes, he really did have a golden toilet shaped like a throne among other tasteless and outrageously expensive stuff.

So, Yanukovich is not the president of Ukraine anymore. He removed himself from that position by abandoning his office and duties.

It means he can rave on from wherever he's hiding, but he has no legitimacy or power anymore.

His attempt to form separatist government in south-east Ukraine doesn't look successful at the moment.

But no one knows what the end of Olympics brings.

Good news are that the police has sided with the people, finally, paramilitary sniper unit that was murdering civilians was apprehended, Ukrainian army remains immune to politics, elections are set... it doesn't look bad, but time will tell if Russia will act brotherly or soviet-esque.

[Kaa-Tzik]

A look at "democracy" in the new EUkraine. Laws that allowed Russian as a secondary language in all official affairs have been overturned and it is now illegal for millions of Russian speakers in Ukraine, full Ukranian citizens, to use Russian in official business. I hardly need to remind that this is like Canada making use of French illegal in official business, or in Celtic components of UK for it to be illegal to use their historic languages in any official capacity. Same would apply to many other countries of course. But hey, it's the new EUkraine, so fascism, racism and discrimination based on language and ethnic origin is now okay. So, that will be the same in ALL EU countries will it ?........

Oh, and of course political parties that the coup leaders do not like are to be made illegal. This, so far, will be Party of the Regions, the party that actually won the last presidential elections in 2010 and Rada elections in 2012, and the Communist Party of Ukraine. This means that 12,5 million Ukranians, 48,95% of the electorate who voted in 2010, have lost their votes and 6 million who voted for Party of Regions in 2012, and were the largest single party in Rada, have lost their vote. 2,7 million Ukranians who vote Communist have also lost their vote. I guess this is the new reality of the new EUkraine and the EU/US style "democracy".

This map puts this removal of votes from nearly half the population in perspective. Haters here can hate and rant and screach, but no matter how much noise you make, you cannot whitewash over this anti-democratic removal of votes and ability to use native language in governing own affairs.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

It’s speculated that former Ukrainian president Yanukovich is hiding in one of his bunkers after failed attempt to escape Ukraine and flee to Russia.

In the last few days huge amounts of cash and valuable items along with families of Yanukovich’s ilk were flown out of Ukraine so he’s now travelling light, with only 650 million US dollars in cash.

I hope that money will be returned to the Ukrainian people as soon as it is found.

Pro-Russian congress held in Kharkiv failed to produce Russian separatist unrest. All they could gather are usual few hundred not really motivated people and they were outnumbered by thousands of pro-democratic protestors – yes, even in Kharkiv that was systematically russified since 1930s.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/23/us-ukraine-crisis-regions-idUSBREA1M01320140223

Let me quote the most telling part:

Following the leaders meeting in Kharkiv, two of its main participants Governor Dobkin and the city's mayor Gennady Kernes quietly slipped over the border into Russia.

"Mr Dobkin and Kernes have left Ukrainian territory," local media quoted a parliamentary spokesman as saying.

[Kaa-Tzik]

^ Kharkov is not representative of the Eastern regions and has a substantial minority of non Russian speakers. Also there is an incorrect assesment of why the Party of Regions is disintegrating. It is not, as implied here and in media, a move of "allegiance" from Party of Regions to the mostly western region opposition parties. The reality is that people who actually give a damn, are angry with Yanukovich and his party for weakness. With such anger also comes a belated anger over the corruption that everybody knew about. There is NOT a shift in the eastern regions to support a coup in Kiev. Thousands have been on the streets of Odessa demonstrating against this coup. Today in Sevastopol, Chairman of administration, Volodymyr Yatsuba was booed by very large crowd, in excess of 20,000 because they did NOT support him wanting Crimea to stay in Ukraine. In extraordinary meeting of city council, 50 of 51 members voted to proclaim Alexey Chaly as Mayor as he is not in favor of this coup in Kiev. A decision was made to refuse to send any taxes to Kiev. Russian speaking bloggers in Kiev are being tracked down by right sector and others, who, where they have the real names, are publishing them, and addresses. Innocent people flee for their lives for the "crime" of blogging for the "wrong" side, and who knows what happens with MVD and Berkut now that the Banderas control Kiev. Here is a reality of what happens.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

Pro-Russian propagandists will have to back up their claims with something called the evidence.

For example, when Ukrainians say Yanukovich’s snipers were shooting people in the head, they have it recorded. I won’t post links, anyone old enough can easily find the videos, see them and – cry. If you have a soul, of course.

Also, Putin agreed with Merkel (who phoned him today) that Ukraine must remain whole.

He probably knows Ukraine can keep hosting his fleet.

Not that I trust that’s the end of this story, but it looks almost good at this point.

Numerous EU diplomats said the same I was repeating from the beginning of this thread: there’s absolutely no contradiction in Ukraine joining EU and developing friendly and close relations with Russia.

There was, obviously, no coup in Kyiv. There was only incompetent and corrupt president abandoning his office and his duties.

It’s not even certain anymore if Moscow will accept him if he manages to escape Ukraine.

[libstaK]

Members are reminded to keep their posts and links in English.

[acidhead]

Anybody see the video of Victoria Nuland admitting the USA GOV has invested 5 billion us$ in promoting democratic institutions inside the Ukraine with intentions of seeking EU partnership and IMF loans.

[acidhead]

Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine.

-Victoria Nuland (Dec. 13 2013)

[+and-then]

Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine.

-Victoria Nuland (Dec. 13 2013)

What is your point? Surely you aren't saying this is a negative for Ukraine?

[acidhead]

Make up your own mind. She admitts the USA has vested interest.

[Kaa-Tzik]

To counter some dis-informarion. Last night in Kharkov a large crowd, many thousands, came out against the fascists in the city, and who are constantly being re-enforced from Kiev. In Sevastopol, marines of Black Sea Fleet are mobilised and APCs are now on all roads into Sevastopol. I could proove all this, but links are not in English, but from locals on the ground, so....

Edited February 24, 2014 by Kaa-Tzik

[Mr.United_Nations]

If marines are being mobilized, then whos ordering them? not the government and not the head of the armed forces. So with no president and a giant reshuffle of the government then the orders come from senior commanders but not actually a functioning army,navy or airforce

[Kaa-Tzik]

If marines are being mobilized, then whos ordering them? not the government and not the head of the armed forces. So with no president and a giant reshuffle of the government then the orders come from senior commanders but not actually a functioning army,navy or airforce

The orders presumably come from Vice Admiral Alexandr Vitko, who does NOT answer to anybody in Kiev. No commander of Black Sea Fleet has ever answered to any government in Kiev, and never will.