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Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?


and-then

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Yanukovich reported to be in the naval base at Sevastopol. Presumably he arrived by road and this may be why there was reported activity of marines on roads to Sevastopol. Just have to take my word for it as my sources are in Russian. But look at time of this post, and then see when this, if true, is confirmed in English speaking, or any other media....

Apparently on warship, so maybe he will be at Novorossiysk (Krasnodar region) in some hours to come.

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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Leader of the fascist Svoboda party, Oleg Tyagnibok, now a major political figure in the new EUkraine, has this afternoon given an interview with the RBK news outlet, which I cannot link to. Tyagnibok confirms that he has information that Yanukovich is in Sevastopol naval base. He further says that the state of hightened alert at the base means that Russia is about to "Invade Ukraine" from Sevastopol in support of Yanukovich and that this will be the start of war with Russia. This is hot air and nonsense of course. But what should worry people is that Tyagnibok now has real power in new EUkraine, that us until the new owners of EUkraine, who do not like fascists, at least not in their own countries, take possesion of their new domain and make him go very quiet. In the meantime, between this nonsense from Tyagnibok and Dmitry Medvedev efectively calling the "authorities" in Kiev "terrorists", and "masked men that we cannot do business with", the situation looks rather grim.

Yesterday I mentioned about the 20,000 plus demonstration in Sevastopol against the coup in Kiev. I was asked for sources, well.... Anyway, I see western media, a day late, finally show video of this demonstration. Even RT is a day late. Don't dismiss what I post here out of hand, as hours or a day later I am proved correct. Still to see for sure about Yanukovich, but I don't expect to be wrong from my post above this some hours ago now. We will see.....

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Make up your own mind. She admitts the USA has vested interest.

Of course the US has a vested interest - is that a uniformly negative thing to your mind? Why shouldn't the Ukrainian people have the freedom to simply choose which direction their nation will move in going forward? There are no marines or other troops on the ground, nor have I heard of any plans to send any to make anyone do anything they do not WANT for themselves. I really don't care what the Ukrainians choose. But it should be THEY who choose for themselves.
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These were pro-Russian customs officers that stopped Yanukovich from flying out of Ukraine, because Moscow needs their puppet regardless if he’s still willing to pose as a president or not. It’s supposed he is in Russian custody somewhere in Crimea.

I have no idea how they plan to reinstall a man who is wanted by the authorities for mass murder of civilians and who is now too scared to act as a president, even if he had any legitimacy left.

Russian loan for almost bankrupt Ukraine was stopped. I remember Putin saying the loan is for Ukrainian people so it doesn’t depend on who’s in power. Turns out it depends. What a surprise.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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A reminder:

When members join this site they agree to abide by the rules of the site.

That means that no matter how heated the debate, no matter how passionately you feel you must remain civil.

It also means abiding by this rule:

3o. Public figures: Do not post comments designed to spread hate about a public figure ( such as a politician, celebrity or convicted criminal ).

That means no referring to politicians you disagree with as "fascists" or as "raving".

If you really can not debate civilly with another member then it is probably in your own best interest to use the "ignore function".

Thank you.

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Putin lost because he used the wrong strategy... he should have bought $800+ billion in US bonds... that way there would have been less support for the protestors :innocent:

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Sources please...

They’re in German. Because we made mods nervous, I can’t post non-English links. I can PM them to you, just as a sign of principles and good will, though I know you can easily find them and have the most important parts translated.

Would you be surprised if he was detained?

He obviously wanted and attempted to flee Ukraine.

How could Moscow claim he’s still a president if he had managed to escape Ukraine?

It’s not believable as it is, it would be complete mockery if he wasn’t even in the country anymore.

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They’re in German. Because we made mods nervous, I can’t post non-English links. I can PM them to you, just as a sign of principles and good will, though I know you can easily find them and have the most important parts translated.

Would you be surprised if he was detained?

He obviously wanted and attempted to flee Ukraine.

How could Moscow claim he’s still a president if he had managed to escape Ukraine?

It’s not believable as it is, it would be complete mockery if he wasn’t even in the country anymore.

He is not arrested, he is in protection in Sevastopol naval base, but I stress this is not 100%. Only reason foreign ministry still sees him as President is because he has not resigned or been legaly removed. 2/3 vote of entire Rada is needed, not 2/3 of members present, and only, from memory, out of 450 members, did 236, or similar, vote to remove him. This is not 2/3. Also they act illegaly in beginning to remove judges from constitutional court, so far 6 of 18.

Flag of Russian Federation has been flying over Sevastopol administration building now for more than a day. Maybe it will not have to come down.....

I continue this by PM......

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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Leader of the fascist Svoboda party, Oleg Tyagnibok, now a major political figure in the new EUkraine, has this afternoon given an interview with the RBK news outlet, which I cannot link to. Tyagnibok confirms that he has information that Yanukovich is in Sevastopol naval base. He further says that the state of hightened alert at the base means that Russia is about to "Invade Ukraine" from Sevastopol in support of Yanukovich and that this will be the start of war with Russia. This is hot air and nonsense of course. But what should worry people is that Tyagnibok now has real power in new EUkraine, that us until the new owners of EUkraine, who do not like fascists, at least not in their own countries, take possesion of their new domain and make him go very quiet. In the meantime, between this nonsense from Tyagnibok and Dmitry Medvedev efectively calling the "authorities" in Kiev "terrorists", and "masked men that we cannot do business with", the situation looks rather grim.

Yesterday I mentioned about the 20,000 plus demonstration in Sevastopol against the coup in Kiev. I was asked for sources, well.... Anyway, I see western media, a day late, finally show video of this demonstration. Even RT is a day late. Don't dismiss what I post here out of hand, as hours or a day later I am proved correct. Still to see for sure about Yanukovich, but I don't expect to be wrong from my post above this some hours ago now. We will see.....

Unfortunately it seems I was rather prescient with this thread. :( I suspected that for whatever reason stated, we were about to see a basic replay of the theme of Russia moving troops into another country to help Russian native citizens. I have no idea if Ukraine has a better or more determined military than did Georgia but it looks, as KT says - grim.
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He is not arrested, he is in protection in Sevastopol naval base, but I stress this is not 100%. Only reason foreign ministry still sees him as President is because he has not resigned or been legaly removed. 2/3 vote of entire Rada is needed, not 2/3 of members present, and only, from memory, out of 450 members, did 236, or similar, vote to remove him. This is not 2/3. Also they act illegaly in beginning to remove judges from constitutional court, so far 6 of 18.

I continue this by PM......

Speaking of Rada, more than 70 deputies left Yanukovich’s Party of Regions. You can’t decide on their legality based on how they vote.

All those who left, have left. Left. Not in the office. Not present. Not working. They are not legal.

Judges who acted illegally are now legally removed. Immensely better than the way that judge who put protestors in house arrest instead of in prison was removed.

And so on.

Have you noticed what Gorbachov said?

Yeah, he’s still alive :D

He said that Ukraine must remain whole and that no side, not EU, not US, not Russia should meddle in the way that could undermine the integrity of Ukraine.

And that people must be given a chance to agree on something.

By the way, Ukraine has huge debt, but Russia is squatting in Ukrainian ports.

Isn’t there a way out of this?

All right, I had to note that, I’m waiting for PM.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Unfortunately it seems I was rather prescient with this thread. :( I suspected that for whatever reason stated, we were about to see a basic replay of the theme of Russia moving troops into another country to help Russian native citizens. I have no idea if Ukraine has a better or more determined military than did Georgia but it looks, as KT says - grim.

Will not happen, despite the shouts and absurd warnings from Susan Rice. The only scenario of Russian troops in Ukraine is if a civil war breaks out and it has become clear that eastern regions are about to succumb. Or, if a situation develops were the new regime makes Russian speakers "non-citizens", and this is spoken about in public by "Nice democrats" like Oleg Tyagnibok, and any form of ethnic cleansing begins. And even this is a publicly stated aim of the "Nice democrats".

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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Speaking of Rada, more than 70 deputies left Yanukovich’s Party of Regions. You can’t decide on their legality based on how they vote.

All those who left, have left. Left. Not in the office. Not present. Not working. They are not legal.

Judges who acted illegally are now legally removed. Immensely better than the way that judge who put protestors in house arrest instead of in prison was removed.

And so on.

Have you noticed what Gorbachov said?

Yeah, he’s still alive :D

He said that Ukraine must remain whole and that no side, not EU, not US, not Russia should meddle in the way that could undermine the integrity of Ukraine.

And that people must be given a chance to agree on something.

By the way, Ukraine has huge debt, but Russia is squatting in Ukrainian ports.

Isn’t there a way out of this?

All right, I had to note that, I’m waiting for PM.

2/3 of total number of duputies must vote for any constitutional change, irrespective of what party they are with or changed sides, missing or anything. If 2/3 of total Rada do not vote for these things, then they are illegal. Guess why the judges of the constitutional court are being replaced.....

I have heard Gorby, and for this time he is not wrong, but we see here the damage done by Yeltsin and, before him, Kruschchev in moving internal borders.

Russia does not "squat" in Ukranian ports. I made several lengthy posts about Crimea before and do not intend to repeat myself, and see sentence above as well.

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Will not happen, despite the shouts and absurd warnings from Susan Rice. The only scenario of Russian troops in Ukraine is if a civil war breaks out and it has become clear that eastern regions are about to succumb. Or, if a situation develops were the new regime makes Russian speakers "non-citizens", and this is spoken about in public by "Nice democrats" like Oleg Tyagnibok, and any form of ethnic cleansing begins. And even this is a publicly stated aim of the "Nice democrats".

Ethnic cleansing starts and I could understand a move by the Russian army but a "civil war" should be no excuse. These people have a right to decide these things for themselves. It seems you are saying that as long as Russia's interests are protected and the country substantially remains under Russian influence then everything will be fine, otherwise Russia will force the issue. How is that just?
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2/3 of total number of duputies must vote for any constitutional change, irrespective of what party they are with or changed sides, missing or anything. If 2/3 of total Rada do not vote for these things, then they are illegal. Guess why the judges of the constitutional court are being replaced.....

I have heard Gorby, and for this time he is not wrong, but we see here the damage done by Yeltsin and, before him, Kruschchev in moving internal borders.

Russia does not "squat" in Ukranian ports. I made several lengthy posts about Crimea before and do not intend to repeat myself, and see sentence above as well.

450 seats, 328 voted for Decree that confirmed Yanukovich has abandoned his office and duties.

They had 2/3.

Croatia gave Neum to Bosnia during SFR Yugoslavia and didn’t ask it back, despite it cuts our territory in the most bizarre way... you have to cross the border in order to get from Split to Dubrovnik... I’m not saying you can compare a tiny town in Dalmatia with whole Crimea and its strategic value, I’m trying to say we have to live with consequences of often insane socialist regimes.

Isn’t Crimea negotiable issue? War would cripple both sides beyond recovery.

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Ethnic cleansing starts and I could understand a move by the Russian army but a "civil war" should be no excuse. These people have a right to decide these things for themselves. It seems you are saying that as long as Russia's interests are protected and the country substantially remains under Russian influence then everything will be fine, otherwise Russia will force the issue. How is that just?

No, that is not how it is in reality. Media and politicians have given the impression that this is some "peoples revolution" against oppression by Moscow and "puppet" Yanukovich. It is not. Last November there was an undeniable dissapointment among a large number of people that Yanukovich did not sign the EU deal, but 100 or 200 thousand people on streets of Kiev are not entire population, or speak for entire population. only votes do that. Without going into what may or may not have been happening behind the scenes, the visits by McCain etc, this dissapointment by an admittedly large number of people, has been hijacked by a minority of "Nice democrats" who just happen to see Hitler as a nice guy, from one part of Ukraine. The rest of Ukraine was ignored by media and politicians, everything was made to seem as if the wishes of these fictional "oppressed" Ukranians were the wishes of all. If a vote had been held on Yanukovich signing this deal and there was a majority for, then there would be democratic legitimacy to protest, but there was no vote, and not everybody is in favor. Only now it seems media and some politicians are starting to open their eyes, if they were not already open, to the reality of how bad these "Nice democrats" are, and that millions of Ukranians do not want with the EU, but to remain with close ties to Russia. Do they, millions of them, not also have a voice? This is nothing to do with Putin's ego or Russian hegemony, it is to do with the wishes of the Ukranian people, and it should now be clear that many want one thing, and many something different as far as looking East or West is concerned. But the majority of all do not want break up of Ukraine. There is a circle here that needs to be squared, but, to use another metaphor, a genie has been let out of the bottle and needs to be put back. Problem is the bottle seems broken now....

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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450 seats, 328 voted for Decree that confirmed Yanukovich has abandoned his office and duties.

They had 2/3.

Croatia gave Neum to Bosnia during SFR Yugoslavia and didn’t ask it back, despite it cuts our territory in the most bizarre way... you have to cross the border in order to get from Split to Dubrovnik... I’m not saying you can compare a tiny town in Dalmatia with whole Crimea and its strategic value, I’m trying to say we have to live with consequences of often insane socialist regimes.

Isn’t Crimea negotiable issue? War would cripple both sides beyond recovery.

I think I was thinking of one of the other votes, one had only 236 but I don't remember which one.

The issue of Sevastopol naval base is legally decided for some years to come. The issue of all Crimea is for all Crimeans to decide, Russian speakers, Ukranian speakers and Crimean Tartars. It seems that at the moment allthough leading politicians argue for remaining part of Ukraine, and are booed for saying so, the decision may be taken away from them by the people. If ethnic Russians and Crimean Tartars can make peace over this current crisis, and it seems to be happening, then expect a decision against Kiev. Besides, there is already a long standing seperatist movement in Kerch peninsula, and we know about situation with the local Sevastopol population even without regard to the naval base.

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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An arrest warrant has been issued for the outed ex priminister.

You mean the former president? Yes, for the mass murder of civilians.

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You mean the former president? Yes, for the mass murder of civilians.

That's what I meant to say ;)

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Fans of Stepan Bandera here I see....

Anyway, it is rumoured for some hours now, tho from a source that has been very reliable so far, that Ukranian armed forces in Crimea (VMSU) have pledged to Black Sea Fleet command. IF true, then this is significant and means that Kiev has effectively lost all control Crimea, and the means of regaining control other than invasion.

In other rumours. It is reported as "suspicious" that the troop landing ship Nikolai Filchenkov docked in Sevastopol yesterday. This is not "suspicious", it is normal activity for a Black Sea Fleet to dock at it's main base. Also reported that several airborne divisions have been flown into Anapa, a small seaside resort on coast of Krasnodar. Well, who knows, maybe tanks already trundle towards Ukraine via the secret tunnel under Black Sea, or Putin flies over, bare chested of course, on back of giant eagle to drop bombs on the banderas in Kiev. And who knows, maybe Svoboda, right sektor and their leaders are not fascists whose members shout "Kill Kikes" and "Kill Russians", maybe they really are "Nice democrats"....

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I wonder, if Crimea would split from Ukraine, and Tatars would start to behave like Russians ("You have to know Russian, but I don't have to learn this <insert any offensive name for natives here> inferior language") in ex-USSR countries, I guarantee, all Tatars would be hanged, so to speak, around Sevastopol by the same "oh so friendly" descendants of Great Mother Russia...

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I wonder, if Crimea would split from Ukraine, and Tatars would start to behave like Russians ("You have to know Russian, but I don't have to learn this <insert any offensive name for natives here> inferior language") in ex-USSR countries, I guarantee, all Tatars would be hanged, so to speak, around Sevastopol by the same "oh so friendly" descendants of Great Mother Russia...

Instead of making petty attacks on me and using the crisis in Ukraine as yet another excuse to attack Russia, and your comments are very thinly disguised hate speech, again, perhaps you could bother to address the OP.

Besides, if you want to sling mud and be petty, well, look at this. It may be from 1931, but it still happened. Some people from those times are still alive, and others in the various Baltic states even today are "non-citizens". Perhaps you may have some comments about the reports of a Synagogue in Ukraine being attacked by the banderas, perhaps you have some contorted "logic" to excuse that happening.....

Link, in English, about the treatment of Jews in Lithuania in 1931, and pertinant to the current crisis in Ukraine as Svoboda is a party that hates Jews so much that they roam about with "Kill Kikes" written on their shirts.

http://www.jta.org/1931/01/10/archive/lithuanian-government-acts-against-non-citizens-jewish-firms-circularised-to-dismiss-employees-who

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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Rada has appopinted Oleg Mahnitskiy to be new Prosecutor General. Mahnitskiy is a deputy from Svoboda. He is credited with being in the party from 2004, but this is disengenous as in that year Svoboda changed their name from the, in English grammar, National Socialist Party. Mahnitskiy was actually involved with this party from it's foundation in 1991. Though they have changed their name to the friendly seeming "Freedom", and also their logo, they are the same underneath.

Before their name change they used this as their logo

6e69f26a7d7b.jpg

And to think that a member of a party that had this is their logo, and whose members even now wear shirts, wave banners and chant "Kill Kikes" and "Kill Russians", is now the new EUkraine's Prosecutor General.....

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