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Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?


and-then

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Ukraine is being lead in the wrong direction by the EU and America...the reality is that Russia is still a power to be reckoned with... even though it has a dilapidated conventional armed force, it's strength in the Ukraine is in its hydrocarbon exports and in it's huge minority that lives in the eastern and southern Ukraine. The EU and America will have to compromise with the Russians otherwise they will instigate a civil war and separate the nation...and the Ukrainians will have to realise that Russian needs and co=operation cannot just be swept aside for the sake of "democracy."

The reality is Russia and Pro Russia supporters think its still 1960's etc. But Crimea, does it really want to join sides? maybe not though Crimiea should be independent from both nations

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The reality is Russia and Pro Russia supporters think its still 1960's etc. But Crimea, does it really want to join sides? maybe not though Crimiea should be independent from both nations

Well one could say that the West still thinks it's the 90's, get Putin drunk like they did with Boris Yeltsin and allow Russian interests to melt away for the sake of "democracy" just not going to happen...at least not without a fight.

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Also some Russa Today reported said that these Militia are from Kiev protesters...and one of them said they were random people

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Ukraine is being lead in the wrong direction by the EU and America...

You’re gravely underestimating Ukrainians if you think they can be lead in any direction by anyone, EU or US included. Not to mention Russia and their leading puppet.

the reality is that Russia is still a power to be reckoned with...

Russia has huge amounts of explosives to detonate, true. Fortunately for human race, it takes more than irresponsibility to win a war.

even though it has a dilapidated conventional armed force, it's strength in the Ukraine is in its hydrocarbon exports

No, that’s the lever Ukraine can use for defence if talks fail.

and in it's huge minority that lives in the eastern and southern Ukraine.

Huge minority is still less numerous than majority, so the huge minority does not get to tell others that are more numerous how they will live, what language they’ll use and what customs unions they’ll enter. Of course the minority has to be heard too and their demands met, but not on the expense of the majority.

The EU and America will have to compromise with the Russians otherwise they will instigate a civil war and separate the nation...

Oh, really? How about Russia makes compromise with sanity and stops making war since the attacked side obviously does everything to not respond to Russian provocations, in admirable attempt to preserve peace?

and the Ukrainians will have to realise that Russian needs and co=operation cannot just be swept aside for the sake of "democracy."

Are you drunk?

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You’re gravely underestimating Ukrainians if you think they can be lead in any direction by anyone, EU or US included. Not to mention Russia and their leading puppet.

That puppet that you're referring to was democratically elected in Ukraine...unlike the current leadership that came to power by coup d'état..I think it's you that has underestimated the will of the Ukrainian people.

Russia has huge amounts of explosives to detonate, true. Fortunately for human race, it takes more than irresponsibility to win a war.

Ukraine and it's current undemocratically elected government is a western proxy at the moment and as such shouldn't be surprised that it's nation and best interests are being torn by foreign governments. Kaboom!!!

No, that’s the lever Ukraine can use for defence if talks fail.

The Pro Western element that controls Ukraine has picked a fight that it hopes others will fight...Ukraine is too fragmented and poor to fight a civil war. But not too poor to pick a fight. eh!

Huge minority is still less numerous than majority, so the huge minority does not get to tell others that are more numerous how they will live, what language they’ll use and what customs unions they’ll enter. Of course the minority has to be heard too and their demands met, but not on the expense of the majority.

I can see Moscow's point of view...what if they interfered in a NATO nation or even in a neighbour like Mexico? I doubt that America or the EU would act any differently than the Russians. Ukraine nationalist have already tried to ban "foreign" languages in Ukraine (Russian and many others).

Oh, really? How about Russia makes compromise with sanity and stops making war since the attacked side obviously does everything to not respond to Russian provocations, in admirable attempt to preserve peace?

Friendship and trust are the hallmarks to good neighbourly relations, regardless...how does Pro Western Ukraine believe that p***ing off Russia by not being neutral is in it's interests? Russian gas and trade have been growing and NO BODY said that Ukraine couldn't trade with whoever they liked... unfortunately you have brought into this rubbish of democracy that's sole objective is to put NATO on Russia's door step, I'm okay with that if it's what the majority wants but its not.

Are you drunk?

NO!!

Edited by Harry_Dresden
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That puppet that you're referring to was democratically elected in Ukraine...unlike the current leadership that came to power by coup d'état..I think it's you that has underestimated the will of the Ukrainian people.

The democratically elected leader of Ukraine was democratically impeached and removed from office by the Ukrainian Parliament. The new leader was voted in by Parliament and is acting until elections take place to decide the future Ukrainian leadership.

Now, the best thing you can do at this stage is step back, take a look at the situation and return with an argument that doesn't stink of excrement.

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the ousted president was badly corrupt, as we have seen in the presidential palace, why have those things when you have people who cant afford anything? thats where the Russia money was going, Russia does not care about Ukraine

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The democratically elected leader of Ukraine was democratically impeached and removed from office by the Ukrainian Parliament. The new leader was voted in by Parliament and is acting until elections take place to decide the future Ukrainian leadership.

Now, the best thing you can do at this stage is step back, take a look at the situation and return with an argument that doesn't stink of excrement.

Ukrainian President Yanukovich didn't step down NOR was he impeached in a parliamentary 2/3rds vote, so get your facts straight, Peregrin Took . After months of unrest and clashing with the security forces over bringing Ukraine closer to Russia and not agreeing to a EU agreement, even though he won the elections with a majority vote on the same political platform, the security forces then switched sides and refused to guarantee the Presidents safety, then he fled with the help of one bodyguard. He wasn't "impeached" by a majority in parliament BUT rather by the security forces and the political opposition after taking control of the parliament. Now even though the former "impeached" president came to power with over 50% of the vote he was removed by a coup d'état.

And what exactly did this new government do when it came to power... did it pass corruption laws...NO! did it pass austerity measures to cope with a near dead economy...NO! did it secure lower oil and gas prices for its people...NO it didn't So what did this government do after removing the corruptible ex-president...it passed a language law prohibiting half the population from speaking and dealing in their first language, Russian, Yiddish, Romanian and Greek... "impeaching" half the population...the half that voted for the ex-president. Where's the "democracy?"

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Ukrainian President Yanukovich didn't step down NOR was he impeached in a parliamentary 2/3rds vote, so get your facts straight, Peregrin Took . After months of unrest and clashing with the security forces over bringing Ukraine closer to Russia and not agreeing to a EU agreement, even though he won the elections with a majority vote on the same political platform, the security forces then switched sides and refused to guarantee the Presidents safety, then he fled with the help of one bodyguard. He wasn't "impeached" by a majority in parliament BUT rather by the security forces and the political opposition after taking control of the parliament. Now even though the former "impeached" president came to power with over 50% of the vote he was removed by a coup d'état.

And what exactly did this new government do when it came to power... did it pass corruption laws...NO! did it pass austerity measures to cope with a near dead economy...NO! did it secure lower oil and gas prices for its people...NO it didn't So what did this government do after removing the corruptible ex-president...it passed a language law prohibiting half the population from speaking and dealing in their first language, Russian, Yiddish, Romanian and Greek... "impeaching" half the population...the half that voted for the ex-president. Where's the "democracy?"

Do you never source your comments?

Article 108. The President of Ukraine shall exercise his powers until the assumption of office by the newly elected President of Ukraine.

The authority of the President of Ukraine shall be subject to an early termination in cases of:

1) resignation;

2) inability to exercise presidential authority for health reasons;

3) removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;

4) his/her death.

Article 109. The resignation of the President of Ukraine shall enter into force from the moment when he personally announces the statement of resignation at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

Article 110. Incapability of the President of Ukraine to exercise his authority for health reasons shall be determined at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine and confirmed by a decision adopted by the majority of its constitutional membership on the basis of a written petition of the Supreme Court of Ukraine, upon a recourse of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine and a medical opinion.

Article 111. The President of Ukraine may be removed from the office by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine in compliance with a procedure of impeachment if he commits treason or other crime.

The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from the office in compliance with a procedure of impeachment shall be initiated by the majority of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall establish a special ad hoc investigating commission, composed of special prosecutor and special investigators to conduct an investigation.

The conclusions and proposals of the ad hoc investigating commission shall be considered at the meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

On the ground of evidence, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall, by at least two-thirds of its constitutional membership, adopt a decision to bring charges against the President of Ukraine.

The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from the office in compliance with the procedure of impeachment shall be adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by at least three-quarters of its constitutional membership upon a review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and upon a receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of treason or other crime.

Source: http://www.president.../chapter05.html

For your information the Impeachment was entirely legal:

The Ukrainian parliament has elected former opposition leader Arseny Yatsenyuk as the country’s prime minister.Yatsenyuk, a close ally of former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, was backed by 371 of 417 participating MPs.

Source: http://www.eurasiareview.com/27022014-ukrainian-verkhovna-rada-confirms-yatsenyuk-prime-minister/

You are very tiresome in this thread because you make unsubstantiated statements in order to reflect your own point of view. YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG...

Edited by keithisco
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They are not entering the country to kill or invade any Ukrainians except those radical ones, and only if they attack Russian forces or buildings of interests such as naval base that is located in the area of Crimea. This situation will be resolved peacefully if no one interferes with Russian defense plan. If they would do attack any Russian interest well we could be seeing a pre-move to war, hopefully not a global one.

For short EU and US should not interfere in any way, leave Russians to defend those points, and Ukrainians to decide on what will they do next.

After the situation is resolved i think Russians will recall their forces.

Again the point is not to interfere, leave it as it is.

For more Real time info click HERE.

Edited by SurgeTechnologies
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Do you never source your comments?

Source: http://www.president.../chapter05.html

For your information the Impeachment was entirely legal:

Source: http://www.eurasiare...prime-minister/

You are very tiresome in this thread because you make unsubstantiated statements in order to reflect your own point of view. YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG...

You crack me up Keith... you first accuse me of making unsubstantiated claims and then you don't bother to source your comments properly...lol

"Ukraine's parliament has voted to remove President Viktor Yanukovich from office, hours after he abandoned his Kiev office to protesters and denounced what he described as a coup." http://www.aljazeera...2035601620.html

So explain to me how forcing the President (elected mind you) from office and the country at gun point and then rustling up the required number of MP's, under duress to vote a mickey mouse impeachment even though he wasn't in parliament entirely legal huh?

Edited by Harry_Dresden
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and if President Viktor Yanukovich had signed the EU agreement he'd still be the President and none of this happens.

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and if President Viktor Yanukovich had signed the EU agreement he'd still be the President and none of this happens.

Not really.

If he had signed, Putin would find a way to install new, more pro-Russian president.

Perhaps Yanukovich would drown in his golden toilet.

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It's easy to talk about war if you are in a country where military isn't compulsory and your country isn't in a heated situation. I know saying this is hypocrite, but I didn't realise it before now. If Russia did want WWIII, I'd imagine they'd get a powerful ally because alone they're nothing. Both USA and Japan are their natural enemies, and three baltian countries + Ukraine + Finland, the first five countries they'd go for first, wouldn't just bend over like nothing unless it's a blitzkrieg. Russia knows this and has prepared their arsenal for that, but it just wont be enough. The first five aren't nuclear. Japan could take the northern isles to itself if Russia was diverted and just leave itself out of the conflict otherwise unless they got greedy. WWIII is not in the best interests of Russia, with or without nuclear arsenal.

If you look at it from that perspective, Putin isn't mad enough to kill his own people for a great loss. At most he'd take a small short-time win in this situation, but if he used clearly illegal force and actually wage war clearly, it would be remembered for a long time in all the smaller neighboring countries and they'd have much more reason to ally themselves with NATO. We in Finland would have a much more powerful military force if we updated our equipment and had the funds to extend the training period, and through NATO that might happen, and the only reason we dont join is to please Russia. As long as there's a reason to please Russia, and that reason would be that Russia doesn't go rogue like it did in WWII. This won't be WWIII.

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You crack me up Keith... you first accuse me of making unsubstantiated claims and then you don't bother to source your comments properly...lol

"Ukraine's parliament has voted to remove President Viktor Yanukovich from office, hours after he abandoned his Kiev office to protesters and denounced what he described as a coup." http://www.aljazeera...2035601620.html

So explain to me how forcing the President (elected mind you) from office and the country at gun point and then rustling up the required number of MP's, under duress to vote a mickey mouse impeachment even though he wasn't in parliament entirely legal huh?

You crack me up Keith... you first accuse me of making unsubstantiated claims and then you don't bother to source your comments properly...lol

"Ukraine's parliament has voted to remove President Viktor Yanukovich from office, hours after he abandoned his Kiev office to protesters and denounced what he described as a coup." http://www.aljazeera...2035601620.html

So explain to me how forcing the President (elected mind you) from office and the country at gun point and then rustling up the required number of MP's, under duress to vote a mickey mouse impeachment even though he wasn't in parliament entirely legal huh?

and shooting people with snipers is legal? and spending millions of public money on corruption. You really are blindsighted. Read facts and stop jumping to conclusions.

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There waving communist flags in Crimea, Russia really needs to grow up and talk not planning a rumored eastern Ukraine invasion.

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You crack me up Keith... you first accuse me of making unsubstantiated claims and then you don't bother to source your comments properly...lol

"Ukraine's parliament has voted to remove President Viktor Yanukovich from office, hours after he abandoned his Kiev office to protesters and denounced what he described as a coup." http://www.aljazeera...2035601620.html

So explain to me how forcing the President (elected mind you) from office and the country at gun point and then rustling up the required number of MP's, under duress to vote a mickey mouse impeachment even though he wasn't in parliament entirely legal huh?

Seriously?

You say that there was no impeachment because the required 75% of elected representatives did not vote - I then show that you are entirely wrong.

Who was forced from where at "Gunpoint"? Not the ex - President for sure. Just another of your unfounded comments.

There was no "coup d'etat" ( I do not believe you even know what that means), the Pres ran away before being found out for sequestering billions of euros into his own private accounts (massive operation worldwide currently to freeze those accounts). Another of your unfounded comments based on ignorance

End of the day it is still you making wild claims about what happened, and you have the temerity to post an editorial from Al Jazeera as though that source is relevant.

You do not even understand the basics of debate, so why bother? :whistle:

Edited by keithisco
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Also a Russian Channel has been found out by posting a propaganda story. Apparently First Channel from Russia reported a mass exodus from Ukraine to Russia on the border. However its actually the Poland-Ukraine Border...oh dear..lol

http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/03/2/7017054/

Its in Ukrainian so if you chrome it translates it

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Seriously?

You say that there was no impeachment because the required 75% of elected representatives did not vote - I then show that you are entirely wrong.

Who was forced from where at "Gunpoint"? Not the ex - President for sure. Just another of your unfounded comments.

There was no "coup d'etat" ( I do not believe you even know what that means), the Pres ran away before being found out for sequestering billions of euros into his own private accounts (massive operation worldwide currently to freeze those accounts). Another of your unfounded comments based on ignorance

End of the day it is still you making wild claims about what happened, and you have the temerity to post an editorial from Al Jazeera as though that source is relevant.

You do not even understand the basics of debate, so why bother? :whistle:

So now he was impeached cause of theft...lol RUBBISH!

So the most wanted political fugitive in Ukraine is nothing more than a thief NOT a political outcast that wanted closer ties to Russia, that the current authorities allowed to run. and the interim president has decided to "impeach" the ex president in absentia. So Keith since when can you impeach someone that has been forcibly removed from office? Due process was denied to him.

And since you find my first source questionable here's another from the west.

"Within 24 hours of a compromise signed between Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and opposition leaders, Yanukovych had fled Kyiv. Then he was impeached. Pro-democratic demonstrators were providing security to abandoned government buildings " http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/02/22/ukraine_president_leaves_kyiv_as_protesters_take_over_capital.html

Mob rule in Ukraine my boy.

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Also a Russian Channel has been found out by posting a propaganda story. Apparently First Channel from Russia reported a mass exodus from Ukraine to Russia on the border. However its actually the Poland-Ukraine Border...oh dear..lol

http://www.pravda.co...4/03/2/7017054/

Its in Ukrainian so if you chrome it translates it

Nothing new, Kremlin's propaganda machine at its best :D

And I wonder, where are all those 675000 who fled (allegedly) Ukraine (in January-February) have been housed? Are there camps for refugees somewhere? Are there any footage/photos from such camps? Or, somehow, by some miracle, houses appeared to accommodate such big number of people?

And small anti war demonstrations (of few hundreds people in Moscow, St.Petersburg) got whacked and tens arrested, while pro war demonstrations (of tens thousands) got permits in just one day (by law, you must notify local administration before 10 days of the event to get permit). Tells a lot.

Anyway, all this bedlam and sword rattling is very handy for Putin to draw attention away from his clique who stole billions $ in just one project - Sochi Olympic games.

Edit: missing word

Edited by bmk1245
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Some people are suggesting invoking the severest sanction of all against Russia as a result of their actions .... I shudder even to write it ....

Banning them from Eurovision.

Has Russia sunk so low that such a thing could be countenanced?

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Ukrainian President Yanukovich didn't step down NOR was he impeached in a parliamentary 2/3rds vote, so get your facts straight, Peregrin Took.

My facts are straight. Yanukovych is no longer the legitimate President of the Ukraine.

Where's the "democracy?"

Where's the legality in occupying a foreign country?

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Where's the legality in occupying a foreign country?

You should ask the former presidents of USA about that, they probably know the answer since they've been faced with this question more than once.

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You should ask the former presidents of USA about that, they probably know the answer since they've been faced with this question more than once.

Do two wrongs now add up to right? They did it so, so can we...? The whole situation is an example of lawlessness and it makes for a really bad situation eventually. I suspect the Ukrainians are going to have to fight for a long time IF they want to be out from under the Russian's boot. I wish them Godspeed and I hope we in the west help those who want to be helped. Sanctions, money, support in international forums and even weapons if they need them. Putin's desire for power will be inexorable if it is not challenged. IF the Ukrainians were okay with being a vassal I'd not care at all about this situation but clearly they DO care and want to be free.
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