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Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?


and-then

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No one will win the wager. If history teaches us anything, is that Russia doesn't go in and simply occupy a country with intentions to annex it. It would essentially alienate its neighboring countries, most of which are members of the former USSR and have substantial populations of ethnic Russians living within them. Russia is quite content on making sure that breakaway Russian areas are no longer controlled by the countries they broke away from. Transnistria, South Ossetia and Abkhazia are all perfectly good examples of this.

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The whole situation is a mess and yet as predicted the EU as been shown as weak. and true to form have taken not just a backseat but is hiding in the boot (trunk) as predicted the USA is running the show, but even as a superpower the US can do little. and Putin knows this. they've annexed Crimea without a shot being fired. the ultimate aim now must be for Russia to annex the Crimea permanently, and their in a hell of a position to do so. its seems the West failed to realise just how close to their heart Russia holds Crimea or maybe they did know but knew they could do nothing about it.

Lets remember Russia holds a veto at the UN, so no legal sanctions can be placed on Russia, (no UN backed sanctions that is) - so its up to each country to impose its own sanctions, and lets face it, all involved have their own political interests, so we'll see a mishmash of sanctions, which will achieve nothing. the EU will be paralyzed to come up with its own plan. knowing their eastern members could have their gas and oil turned off in an instant.

If this was a game of poker, Russia doesn't just hold a Royal Flush but they hold the entire pack. and the rest are just sitting there twiddling their thumbs. If the US and the EU, try and push for sanctions that would really hurt Russia it then raises the possibility of the Russians rolling armour - Tanks into eastern Ukraine itself into the regions were they have local support from the pro Russian population. creating a buffer zone between its border and Ukraine's. It then gives the Russians even more bargaining power. they could then quite happily agree to withdrawn from eastern Ukraine but keeping Crimea or if not keeping Crimea making sure it breaks away from Ukraine.

NATO, needs to keep out of it, Ukraine isn't a NATO member and a bloody good job too. imagine if it was, it doesnt bear thinking about. The Russians have just held a combined military exercise with 120,000 troops, 600 Tanks. plus hundreds of other military hardware, in comparison NATO couldn't even dream of holding such a exercise. even if on paper NATO combined is stronger than Russia. the combined effectiveness of NATO is far behind that of Russia on this scale.

so the question is - Ukraine is in this mess because they wanted to be in the EU, pro EU. and the EU encouraged them, does the EU now just sit their with its thumb up its bum and abandon them to Russia? does the EU now press ahead with forming its own military? does the EU roll in their tanks to support those who want to join the west? No is the answer, - its shows NATO, USA, EU and the UN all lacking when faced with a dominant military force. no doubt about it Russia and China will take great pleasure of events in recent days and months. proves one thing as well, defence spending in Europe needs to increase. like NATO and the US have been saying for the last decade.

Edited by stevewinn
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Your entire rebuff to my comments is a Litany of mis-information perpetrated it would appear, solely by yourself.

Neither of your sources back up your vitriol, and your received wisdom suggests to me that Fox News is actually YOUR source. Clearly there is absolutely no Ukraine Edict that disallows Russian to be spoken, I refer you to Article 10 of the Ukrainian Constitution (enacted in 2004 and currently the constituion in force source wiki):

Also stated here: http://www.president...nstitution.html

The only issue was whether or not Russian should be an Official 2nd language - as Ukraine is an Independent nation then they are at Liberty to adopt a single language as the progenitor language for ALL Official documents, legal and Constitutional. Should autonomous regions such as the crimea, also wish to produce the documentation in Russian, then that is not denied. But, they have to use their regional funding to pay for it.

Adendum: Russia is the only Nation putting forces on the ground - this is illegal in International Law

In future please source reference to the originating body if at all possible, and compare it to the hyperbole that you demonstrate

More of your belligerence and disparaging comments, lucky me...

Here's the thing Keith, the Russian speakers in Ukraine are cheering the Russian soldiers and seem generally relieved that their voices are now heard and respected. I can't imagine that you would know more than them. Their vote was cast aside when the Ex-President was deposed... they were threatened with second class status and their opinions (even though they make up nearly half the country means nothing). The Russians living in Ukraine were habitually neglected and provoked by the Ukrainian speakers. So Putin has drawn a line through the middle. Western Ukraine can join NATO and the EU... and the East half can form closer ties to Russia. Since no one whats to compromise including the Americans, this way every one wins, so what's your gripe?

Article 10 is not reflective of the current reality on the ground... first off Russian is spoken by roughly half the population and virtually understood by all. Conferring minority status on a equal segment of society is akin to hijacking the state. But you see Keith that's not the only issue that has agitated the Russian speakers, the Ukrainians have also hijacked foreign policy, the economy and virtually everything else. So spare us all your "cold war" heroics and Fox News bravado and get with the program!!

Edited by Harry_Dresden
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If he would have promised, he will be Putin's ***wipe, and not "I will seek strategic partnership with EU and USA", he wouldn't be elected as President in the first place. Secondly, he promised Russian language as second official language in Ukraine (which he didn't kept entirely), thus winning in Eastern Ukraine (and cheered by Russian chauvinists). Simple.

Edit: clarification

So instead we have a Ukrainian who's now Obama's ass wipe and a nation on the brink of war... is that what you mean?

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Putin is homophobic and racists and Russians too and they need to stop threatening minorites

True the Russians are not that much better than most including the Americans (Republicans and the rest of the bible bashing mob that seems to have an over-representation in American politics and law) Pot, kettle, black!!!

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Lets remember Russia holds a veto at the UN, so no legal sanctions can be placed on Russia, (no UN backed sanctions that is) - so its up to each country to impose its own sanctions, and lets face it, all involved have their own political interests, so we'll see a mishmash of sanctions, which will achieve nothing. the EU will be paralyzed to come up with its own plan. knowing their eastern members could have their gas and oil turned off in an instant.

Excellent assessment Stevewinn... if I may add that the only cards that the US has to play since any war or war by proxy has been ruled out, is economic... Europe and Asia live off Russian gas/oil. If the US and the EU stop buying from Russia then the price of these commodities will sky-rocket. Economic measures are self defeating. I have no idea why the EU and the USA went into this before thinking it out better.

So the question is - Ukraine is in this mess because they wanted to be in the EU, pro EU. and the EU encouraged them, does the EU now just sit their with its thumb up its bum and abandon them to Russia? does the EU now press ahead with forming its own military? does the EU roll in their tanks to support those who want to join the west? No is the answer, - its shows NATO, USA, EU and the UN all lacking when faced with a dominant military force. no doubt about it Russia and China will take great pleasure of events in recent days and months. proves one thing as well, defence spending in Europe needs to increase. like NATO and the US have been saying for the last decade.

The EU will never speak with one voice and never have anything more than Economic strength. They should make a friend outta Russia and acknowledge that they have concerns just like the Russians and they should compromise.

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So instead we have a Ukrainian who's now Obama's ass wipe and a nation on the brink of war... is that what you mean?

Of two evils, best choice is the one that is less bad, i.e. with EU and USA.

OT. Many years Kremlin was spreading propaganda how "oppressed" Russians are in Baltic states. Guess what direction those "oppressed" chose to "flee" when we joined EU? EU, or motherland Russia? Right answer - to that much hated EU (and what they call Gayrope), where they learned languages of those EU countries pretty fast, and don't feel "oppressed" when locals "refuse" to talk in Russian.

Edited by bmk1245
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NATO-Russia Council expected tomorrow. As much as I can tell meetings of the RNC don't happen often. Time for Turkey to make a move. This will get interesting *grabs popcorn*

Edited by SolarPlexus
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lol the Jewish community have hit out against the Russians for false racism claims, apparently the Jews are getting targeted by Pro Russian facists

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For the victims of Russian propaganda:

Turkey is a member of NATO.

So when Russian jet flew along Turkish Black Sea coast yesterday, Turkey sent 8 F-16s.

Someone might discover his popcorn taste like... you know what.

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Why am I getting a feeling that the western countries just wanna have a go at Russia and have our propaganda machines running full speed? Maybe because I read a russian source too.

It would a different situation if Russia made this kinda military march to Finland now first, because we dont have an open revolt and the russians here are a 1% minority, not something like 50%. Just a perspective.

Edited by Mikko-kun
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I noticed references (citing Russian officials) to a planned bridge over the Kerch straits over the last 48 hours. This would directly link the Crimean peninsular with mainland Russia.

I doubt this is a NEW plan, but it is interesting that they have chosen to highlight it under the current circumstances.

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It would a different situation if Russia made this kinda military march to Finland now first, because we dont have an open revolt and the russians here are a 1% minority, not something like 50%. Just a perspective.

Having a majority of ethnicity or nationality is a valid reason to go kill people? If Finland was 50% Russian, the legal/moral prospect of invading Finland would be alright?

Why am I getting a feeling that the western countries just wanna have a go at Russia and have our propaganda machines running full speed? Maybe because I read a russian source too.

Or maybe because it's just another day in the office. When did the propaganda machines ever go on break?

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Yup. Russia goes to a peninsula full of Russians to defend Russians.

USA went to Iraq, a country full of OIL... to defend OIL.

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Having a majority of ethnicity or nationality is a valid reason to go kill people? If Finland was 50% Russian, the legal/moral prospect of invading Finland would be alright?

Who has the Russian army killed in Ukraine? All I've read so far is they've fired warning shots in certain circumstances. And despite following the news a bit I dont see any alarming news of them trying to invade the whole Ukraine. I've no doubt they could do so if they wanted and if the other countries didn't interfere. It's absurd to ask questions like that when there's no clear sign of Russians being actually intent of invading the whole Ukraine, except the assumption that when any country attacks anywhere, they invade as much as they can, which holds much water but it's one-eyed to look only from that perspective.

If Finland was 50% russian population 50% finnish, I think we might be better off having two more united Finland-countries than a one divided one, especially when we have this representative form of democracy which alone falls quite short of a true democracy. In representative democracies only two or three parties tend to have any real foothold to be the number one decision-makers, and the biggest questions are what count. If the biggest question is not the division of wealth or other big issues like that but an issue of voting the Finnish or the Russian representative according to which bloodline you're from, I would rather live in a smaller country.

And in Finland there's many native finns saying that the autonomous Åland islands that are swedish largely, and cause trouble for the rest of us by being more right-winged and wanting us to study their language when many of us could use that time better, many people here say that the Åland islands would be better off totally independent or under swedish rule than with us. I agree with them. If you have representative democracy and not straight democracy in big decisions, then I think it's bad to have a divided country.

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Yup. Russia goes to a peninsula full of Russians to defend Russians.

USA went to Iraq, a country full of OIL... to defend OIL.

Because there’s nothing about gas in Ukraine :lol: And in Syria, Russians are protecting... who? Staff at their embassy? In Afghanistan Russia invaded to protect who? Russian kind of poppy?

Are you that naive or you think everyone else is an idiot?

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Who has the Russian army killed in Ukraine? All I've read so far is they've fired warning shots in certain circumstances. And despite following the news a bit I dont see any alarming news of them trying to invade the whole Ukraine. I've no doubt they could do so if they wanted and if the other countries didn't interfere. It's absurd to ask questions like that when there's no clear sign of Russians being actually intent of invading the whole Ukraine, except the assumption that when any country attacks anywhere, they invade as much as they can, which holds much water but it's one-eyed to look only from that perspective.

If Finland was 50% russian population 50% finnish, I think we might be better off having two more united Finland-countries than a one divided one, especially when we have this representative form of democracy which alone falls quite short of a true democracy. In representative democracies only two or three parties tend to have any real foothold to be the number one decision-makers, and the biggest questions are what count. If the biggest question is not the division of wealth or other big issues like that but an issue of voting the Finnish or the Russian representative according to which bloodline you're from, I would rather live in a smaller country.

And in Finland there's many native finns saying that the autonomous Åland islands that are swedish largely, and cause trouble for the rest of us by being more right-winged and wanting us to study their language when many of us could use that time better, many people here say that the Åland islands would be better off totally independent or under swedish rule than with us. I agree with them. If you have representative democracy and not straight democracy in big decisions, then I think it's bad to have a divided country.

Please make the distinction between Russian speaking, and Russian Nationals. Ukraine Nationals make up the vast majority, those Nationals speaking Russian is a large proportion. Ukraine is Ukraine, irrespective of anyones preferred language. I refer you to California (USA) where the mother tongue (majority) appears now to be Spanish.

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I just told you my view. If you think it's stupid, just say so instead of trying to say how I should think. If you have trouble reading my post you could ask a clarification, but you just critisize me because I dont reach your level of dictionary correctness? You feel the need to distract the point with that kinda thing, unless you're making a point instead of derailing this with dictionary nazism?

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Who has the Russian army killed in Ukraine? All I've read so far is they've fired warning shots in certain circumstances. And despite following the news a bit I dont see any alarming news of them trying to invade the whole Ukraine. I've no doubt they could do so if they wanted and if the other countries didn't interfere. It's absurd to ask questions like that when there's no clear sign of Russians being actually intent of invading the whole Ukraine, except the assumption that when any country attacks anywhere, they invade as much as they can, which holds much water but it's one-eyed to look only from that perspective.

If Finland was 50% russian population 50% finnish, I think we might be better off having two more united Finland-countries than a one divided one, especially when we have this representative form of democracy which alone falls quite short of a true democracy. In representative democracies only two or three parties tend to have any real foothold to be the number one decision-makers, and the biggest questions are what count. If the biggest question is not the division of wealth or other big issues like that but an issue of voting the Finnish or the Russian representative according to which bloodline you're from, I would rather live in a smaller country.

And in Finland there's many native finns saying that the autonomous Åland islands that are swedish largely, and cause trouble for the rest of us by being more right-winged and wanting us to study their language when many of us could use that time better, many people here say that the Åland islands would be better off totally independent or under swedish rule than with us. I agree with them. If you have representative democracy and not straight democracy in big decisions, then I think it's bad to have a divided country.

Wouldn't that be up to Finland? Then so too, the Ukraine.

I still don't see the difference that ethnic groups (or language groups) make.

Also I'm not suggesting the Russian army killed anyone. But I also don't see why that would make a difference either. As if, I'm supposed to support invasions where nobody gets killed? But as soon as the Russians order to shoot and Ukrainians get killed, then it's okay to disagree with Russia? No, that's not the determining factor here.

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Yup. Russia goes to a peninsula full of Russians to defend Russians.

USA went to Iraq, a country full of OIL... to defend OIL.

Yeah, Russia can't even deal with its own next door neighbors but we can go half way around the world with our invasions. The hypocrisy is three feet thick.

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why all oppressive regimes love Russia ?

Russia is trying to say that we are loyal to all the regimes that are on our side, bashar al assad is an example, the people might die in millions but we shamelessly well continue to support you, so be on our side and not on america side because they never keep a promise

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They should call their bluff and march on. Not even a Russian commander would dare give the order to gun down unarmed men on their own soil, they would be responsible for dragging Russia in to a war they can't afford.

Edited by Finity
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Yamato, it's just better to not make assumptions and judgements but to see for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I'd be interested in hearing what the east ukranians have to say about all this. If those soldiers in Thanato's video were east ukranian and less europe-minded, then it's really worrying.

What happens, happens, and who's it up to? The ones who make it happen, whether it's Finland, Ukraine, Russia, USA or anyone. You can't expect to be untouchable in this world, not as a single person nor as a country. We in Finland know this, it's a reality for us. To me it's senseless to try make things sound otherwise. What you can do is try to find the best solution, and I dont think that can be found by trying to pour more fuel to the fire.

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