Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[Yamato]

Yamato, it's just better to not make assumptions and judgements but to see for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I'd be interested in hearing what the east ukranians have to say about all this. If those soldiers in Thanato's video were east ukranian and less europe-minded, then it's really worrying.

What happens, happens, and who's it up to? The ones who make it happen, whether it's Finland, Ukraine, Russia, USA or anyone. You can't expect to be untouchable in this world, not as a single person nor as a country. We in Finland know this, it's a reality for us. To me it's senseless to try make things sound otherwise. What you can do is try to find the best solution, and I dont think that can be found by trying to pour more fuel to the fire.

I'm not making assumptions I'm just applying standards. I was against Stalin invading Finland prior to WW2. I'm against Putin invading the Ukraine today.

Why do we have to be against any country but for the actions of that country? I'm against occupation, period.

[keithisco]

I just told you my view. If you think it's stupid, just say so instead of trying to say how I should think. If you have trouble reading my post you could ask a clarification, but you just critisize me because I dont reach your level of dictionary correctness? You feel the need to distract the point with that kinda thing, unless you're making a point instead of derailing this with dictionary nazism?

You made a point - I made a counter point. It is called a "debate". There is no derailing going on and I most certainly, am not telling YOU how to think. What I am saying in this forum is how I think.

"Dictionary Nazism"? Is this some kind of new "Godwinism"??

[Mikko-kun]

Keith, you lost me with your first post, I thought you purposefully ignored any point I tried to make and focused on semantics. If it's not so, could you please elaborate and accept my apology? But if I did read you right, forget it.

Why do we have to be against any country but for the actions of that country? I'm against occupation, period.

That's cool, it's your right, I dont think I've seen many people judge this based on their principles except you. I agree with you, I'm against occupation too not in certain circumstances maybe, if done in certain way. There's many ways and reasons and different situations you can occupy the other country or certain parts of it, and while it does sound kinda absurd to say "benign occupation", I see this as such. Because the former occupations Russia (or Soviet, same animal) did, were far worse than this. And it genuinely doesn't seem to me like they'd do this only out of greed or out of their own economical or military interests though those are undoubtedly always important to them. Just different views though.

[+and-then]

No one will win the wager. If history teaches us anything, is that Russia doesn't go in and simply occupy a country with intentions to annex it. It would essentially alienate its neighboring countries, most of which are members of the former USSR and have substantial populations of ethnic Russians living within them. Russia is quite content on making sure that breakaway Russian areas are no longer controlled by the countries they broke away from. Transnistria, South Ossetia and Abkhazia are all perfectly good examples of this.

So they have a ready excuse to invade any of their former republics at a whim. I'm thinking Poland might have an issue with that.

[keithisco]

Keith, you lost me with your first post, I thought you purposefully ignored any point I tried to make and focused on semantics. If it's not so, could you please elaborate and accept my apology? But if I did read you right, forget it.

That's cool, it's your right, I dont think I've seen many people judge this based on their principles except you. I agree with you, I'm against occupation too not in certain circumstances maybe, if done in certain way. There's many ways and reasons and different situations you can occupy the other country or certain parts of it, and while it does sound kinda absurd to say "benign occupation", I see this as such. Because the former occupations Russia (or Soviet, same animal) did, were far worse than this. And it genuinely doesn't seem to me like they'd do this only out of greed or out of their own economical or military interests though those are undoubtedly always important to them. Just different views though.

Mikko-kun, please do not apologise for anything. I do not care for semantics, or grammar, I just try to understand what is being said. You are a very good poster on threads, and even though English may not be your Mother Tongue, you make very strong points and arguments.

[SolarPlexus]

Well whadaya say .... seems like Kiev snipers were hired by Maidan leaders after all, and not Janukovich ...

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Well whadaya say .... seems like Kiev snipers were hired by Maidan leaders after all, and not Janukovich ...

That was well known...

[Helen of Annoy]

Aha, because Russian sources are to be trusted

Keep dreaming, there's no way to whitewash what Yanukovich did. The sniper attacks were very, very well documented and some of Berkuts who did the sniping apprehended.

This stinks of the 1990s and how Milosevich's chetniks shamelessly claimed that Bosnians were shooting themselves and throwing grenades at themselves to make saint Serbs look bad. *vomits on top of KGB manual from which such repulsive propaganda scheme came from*

You can't have your god damned ex-Yugoslavia back and you can't have your god damned USSR back. No matter how good you think you are at lying.

Edit: Maybe you are that naive.

Here's an useful example so you can understand how Russian propaganda works:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2574131/How-Russian-television-used-actress-pretend-five-different-people-opposed-revolution-reported-normal-Ukrainians-backed-Kremlin.html

Edited March 6, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Mikko-kun]

Helen, that wouldn't surprise me, though in that dailymail link those five women being the same, they dont seem to look that identical except two or three of them. But that's semantics.

I wonder why does Crimean parliament vote for annexing itself to Russia. At gunpoint maybe, or maybe to give better conditions to its citizens in opposing to living in a country where you are seen as a second class citizen. That's the picture I got, but I wish someone from Ukraine would have some actual insight on this.

[questionmark]

Helen, that wouldn't surprise me, though in that dailymail link those five women being the same, they dont seem to look that identical except two or three of them. But that's semantics.

I wonder why does Crimean parliament vote for annexing itself to Russia. At gunpoint maybe, or maybe to give better conditions to its citizens in opposing to living in a country where you are seen as a second class citizen. That's the picture I got, but I wish someone from Ukraine would have some actual insight on this.

Old history for us, like it happened yesterday for the Russians on the Crimea.... One day Khrushchev decided to be magnanimous and gave some Russian territory to the Ukraine (after all cost him nothing, he was the boss of both)... the Russians did not like it, the Tartars loved it... the Russians are the majority.

[acidhead]

Aha, because Russian sources are to be trusted

Keep dreaming, there's no way to whitewash what Yanukovich did. The sniper attacks were very, very well documented and some of Berkuts who did the sniping apprehended.

This stinks of the 1990s and how Milosevich's chetniks shamelessly claimed that Bosnians were shooting themselves and throwing grenades at themselves to make saint Serbs look bad. *vomits on top of KGB manual from which such repulsive propaganda scheme came from*

You can't have your god damned ex-Yugoslavia back and you can't have your god damned USSR back. No matter how good you think you are at lying.

Edit: Maybe you are that naive.

Here's an useful example so you can understand how Russian propaganda works:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2574131/How-Russian-television-used-actress-pretend-five-different-people-opposed-revolution-reported-normal-Ukrainians-backed-Kremlin.html

Really???? Who's being naive? Those five women don't look like the same person.... WOW

[Helen of Annoy]

Really???? Who's being naive? Those five women don't look like the same person.... WOW

And Russian invasion forces don't look like Russian forces because they left insignia at home.

Yanukovich doesn't look like a coward because he coincidentally took a trip to Russia.

He also doesn't look like ousted dictator because the same people who cried over Gaddafi or Saddam are crying over Yanukovich's lost comfy chair.

Petition to Putin, signed by more than 200,000 Ukrainian Russians and Russian speakers in which they clarify they need no protection (though they politely thank for caring about them) doesn't exist because it wasn't in Russian media... I wonder why.

Wake up, lefties, there's no balance to corporative US in even more rabidly corporative Russia.

There's just the new world war for everyone, because it's never enough for some.

[Mr.United_Nations]

With all due respect. What the hell are you talking about? Lol. Also how does this have anything to do with the Russian occupation of Ukraine?

The Jews feel that tthat they will be left out or treated badly by the Russians, the Russians say that the Jews support them. However They claim the Russians are making this up. The Tartars feel the same.

[bmk1245]

"Neat"... chetniks in Crimea...

[Helen of Annoy]

"Neat"... chetniks in Crimea...

Yep, if it wasn't clear before, now it's clear who's who in Ukraine.

Chetniks said they are coming to Russia's aid because Russian volunteers helped them when they started their unsuccessful war against Croatia and then against Bosnia and Herzegovina, with intention to annex parts if not whole neighbouring countries, also under excuse of protecting their, Serbian, endangered minority.

We, Croatian majority were not at all endangered by bearded ghouls with knives in their mouths and ex-Yugoslavian army behind them.

I was young, naive and completely unarmed when war started for me one day, actually, it was 4 AM and mortar attack. My first. I thought I'll explode on my own, even if it doesn't hit me

But, here I am, remembering it all. With smug smile, if I may admit.

[bmk1245]

Why am I getting a feeling that the western countries just wanna have a go at Russia and have our propaganda machines running full speed? Maybe because I read a russian source too.

It would a different situation if Russia made this kinda military march to Finland now first, because we dont have an open revolt and the russians here are a 1% minority, not something like 50%. Just a perspective.

Honestly, with all Kremlin's insane propaganda nowadays, crow crapping on one of those 1% would be enough to make "Finlyandskaya Guberniya v sostave RF" once again (though back then it was called bit differently).

[Helen of Annoy]

Honestly, with all Kremlin's insane propaganda nowadays, crow crapping on one of those 1% would be enough to make "Finlyandskaya Guberniya v sostave RF" once again (though back then it was called bit differently).

Come on, not every Finn is a defeatist.

In fact, if there’s a country Kremlin crows would rather not crap false flags on, then it’s still Finland.

[bmk1245]

Yep, if it wasn't clear before, now it's clear who's who in Ukraine.

Chetniks said they are coming to Russia's aid because Russian volunteers helped them when they started their unsuccessful war against Croatia and then against Bosnia and Herzegovina, with intention to annex parts if not whole neighbouring countries, also under excuse of protecting their, Serbian, endangered minority.

We, Croatian majority were not at all endangered by bearded ghouls with knives in their mouths and ex-Yugoslavian army behind them.

I was young, naive and completely unarmed when war started for me one day, actually, it was 4 AM and mortar attack. My first. I thought I'll explode on my own, even if it doesn't hit me

But, here I am, remembering it all. With smug smile, if I may admit.

History tends to repeat itself... Lets hope this madness will stop sooner than later.

[Helen of Annoy]

History tends to repeat itself... Lets hope this madness will stop sooner than later.

Oh, it will. Sooner rather than later.

Unless Russia manages to provoke a conflict after all. I hope to gods it won’t happen now if it didn’t happen in the last week. Also, it would be painfully obvious now who’s behind any possible false flag operation. There are tons of photos, videos and witnesses, everything is recorded nowadays. Good side of modern times, I wish we had so many cameras and the Internet back in the 1990s...

Anyway, if there’s no conflict, all that is left is loss of profit for Russia. And that’s not why they launched this circus.

[bmk1245]

[...]

In fact, if there’s a country Kremlin crows would rather not crap false flags on, then it’s still Finland.

Yeah, thats true, until another crazy idea in Kremlin's "head".

BTW, just to brighten, kinda, dark mood, here is video showing how to stand against propaganda.

Humor - best weapon.

[Helen of Annoy]

I'm sorry for bringing my place up again, but our best jokes were invented during wars. The last one was especially fruitful with morbid humour. And the best parties were thrown in makeshift shelters and cellars. When old people throw you out so they can sleep in peace and the patrol throws you back in because what the **** are you doing outside in this air-raid, general-raid, blackout, and whatnot else, all at the same time.

Laugh at the devil and he will flee. If he doesn't, you can also kick him in the groin.

[bmk1245]

Oh, it will. Sooner rather than later.

Unless Russia manages to provoke a conflict after all. I hope to gods it won’t happen now if it didn’t happen in the last week. Also, it would be painfully obvious now who’s behind any possible false flag operation. There are tons of photos, videos and witnesses, everything is recorded nowadays. Good side of modern times, I wish we had so many cameras and the Internet back in the 1990s...

[...]

"Green, unidentified forces" in Crimea is provocation, already. Yeah, Russians (officials!) say "Its self defense forces. Camouflage can be bought in any store". Well, can all this modern military gadgetry (starting from weapons, ending with vehicles only Russian army is equipped with) can be bought in stores? Smart (and sane) move from Ukrainian forces who didn't escalated situation by shooting these "green martians" (I'm 100% sure, Putin was expecting bullets flying around), otherwise we would be seeing full scale war already.

[bmk1245]

[...]

Laugh at the devil and he will flee. If he doesn't, you can also kick him in the groin.

Best adage ever!

[Harry_Dresden]

I'm sorry for bringing my place up again, but our best jokes were invented during wars. The last one was especially fruitful with morbid humour. And the best parties were thrown in makeshift shelters and cellars. When old people throw you out so they can sleep in peace and the patrol throws you back in because what the **** are you doing outside in this air-raid, general-raid, blackout, and whatnot else, all at the same time.

Laugh at the devil and he will flee. If he doesn't, you can also kick him in the groin.

...you missed the best joke of all Helen...Russia has won! The Crimea will become part of the Russian Federation, regardless of the protestations of the West. Putin/the Devil are one and the same for you and so they should be cause he's just condemned the Ukraine to a life time of regret and hell. He has out manoeuvred Obama and the EU. In the absence of military action from NATO or the impotent Ukrainians attacking to reclaim their lost territory, the current US response of "political and economic" retaliation only serves to stop the devil from marching into Eastern Ukraine and NOT giving back the Crimea.

Sympathy for the Devil? or maybe for the Ukraine?

Edited March 8, 2014 by Harry_Dresden

[keithisco]

...you missed the best joke of all Helen...Russia has won! The Crimea will become part of the Russian Federation, regardless of the protestations of the West. Putin/the Devil are one and the same for you and so they should be cause he's just condemned the Ukraine to a life time of regret and hell. He has out manoeuvred Obama and the EU. In the absence of military action from NATO or the impotent Ukrainians attacking to reclaim their lost territory, the current US response of "political and economic" retaliation only serves to stop the devil from marching into Eastern Ukraine and NOT giving back the Crimea.

Sympathy for the Devil? or maybe for the Ukraine?

What exactly has Russia "Won"?? With only 58.5% of Crimea Ethnic Russian, and hundreds of thousands of them NOT wanting to become a Russian Satellite, how does the Autonomous govt hope to secure the 75% "Yes" vote to enter into negotiations with both Ukraine and Russian governments? Remember the vote is not until March 16th so it has not even been held yet.

How will Russia fare economically when Ukraine buys its gas from the EU instead of Russia? The loss of 100Bn Euros to the Russian teasury annually is no small item for Putin to trifle with, given the dire state of Russia's economy.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. Suppose Russia does "win" (in your simplistic terms) it would be nothing more than a Pyrrhic victory For members not having English as their mother tongue, a Pyrrhic victory, is a victory with such a devastating cost that it is tantamount to defeat (Wiki definition).

Edited March 8, 2014 by keithisco